Preparing Divine Spells Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Preparing Divine Spells Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Averroes
09-21-07, 12:17 PM Ok this came up in a game a couple nights ago.
We had set up camp after a pretty tough encounter. In the middle of the night we were attacked. Our group has a cleric, and the cleric had earlier decided that the hour of prayer for regaining his spells was a sundown. We had only been resting for a couple hours when the attack happened.
The debate arose if he had all his spells or not.

Here is what the D20 page says, which is pretty similar to what the PHB says.

Time of Day
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Ok this does seem to imply that yes he would have his new spell selection. However on further reading in the Divine Magic section this came up.

Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.

So in the wizard section says.

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

So the question: Does this mean that if the cleric who prepares their spells at Sundown cast a spell in the last 8 hours they do not get to study all their spells?
For example: A cleric cast Shield Other on an ally at 6:00 P.M. and sundown (their time of prayer) is at 8:00 does this mean they are short one second level spell the next day?

This is something I should know, considering how long I’ve been playing. It’s a minor detail I’d missed. But it seems like a rather inane hassle. For one I don’t want to have to keep a clock on the table showing exactly what time what happened and what time is was when they cast said spell. Without the clock I see rather annoying and time-wasting arguments.

Also if a Cleric who studies their spells at any other time other than the morning if they heal up the group before they go to bed that means they will be really short on their spells when they study them.

Am I reading this right? If so how do you guys treat it in your game? If not then how should it be done?

The way we’ve done it is just like a wizard. Except they can pray at any time and don’t get their spells until 8 hours of rest.
Merestil Haye
09-21-07, 02:35 PM So the question: Does this mean that if the cleric who prepares their spells at Sundown cast a spell in the last 8 hours they do not get to study all their spells?
For example: A cleric cast Shield Other on an ally at 6:00 P.M. and sundown (their time of prayer) is at 8:00 does this mean they are short one second level spell the next day?Yes, that is the way it works.

This is something I should know, considering how long I’ve been playing. It’s a minor detail I’d missed. But it seems like a rather inane hassle. For one I don’t want to have to keep a clock on the table showing exactly what time what happened and what time is was when they cast said spell. Without the clock I see rather annoying and time-wasting arguments.You're the DM. You say how much time has passed.

You can estimate time passing quite easily by their activity level. A group on foot with one or more members in heavy armour have marched ten miles between encounters. How much time has passed? I'd estimate five hours.

Also if a Cleric who studies their spells at any other time other than the morning if they heal up the group before they go to bed that means they will be really short on their spells when they study them.Maybe the group ought to unlearn their expectation of being healed when they set up camp. The Cleric doesn't have to heal them, and I'd go so far as to tell them to get a night's rest first if I were the cleric.

Am I reading this right? If so how do you guys treat it in your game? If not then how should it be done?

The way we’ve done it is just like a wizard. Except they can pray at any time and don’t get their spells until 8 hours of rest.Clerics don't technically need to rest between two consecutive day's spell recoveries, because they pick the time of day.

I do require rest - some time between spell recharges.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-21-07, 02:43 PM So the question: Does this mean that if the cleric who prepares their spells at Sundown cast a spell in the last 8 hours they do not get to study all their spells?
For example: A cleric cast Shield Other on an ally at 6:00 P.M. and sundown (their time of prayer) is at 8:00 does this mean they are short one second level spell the next day?Yeap.

Also if a Cleric who studies their spells at any other time other than the morning if they heal up the group before they go to bed that means they will be really short on their spells when they study them.

Am I reading this right? If so how do you guys treat it in your game? If not then how should it be done?By the rules-as-written what you say is correct. Basically, if you don't rest right before your prayer time, you get hosed. So, if you are a cleric that prays at sundown, you better sleep during the day and adventure at night.

The problem is that if this if the eight-hour run wasn't in effect, some munchkin would try and say his cleric prays a noon so he can get two day's worth of spells.

Generally, we just have the spells replenish after rest like an arcane caster to avoid the problem. Another way would be to have the cleric pray at sundown as normal but the spells used just before then replenish eight hours after they were last used.
Averroes
09-21-07, 02:45 PM Ok, Good to know we've been doing this wrong for a long time.

But I think i'll keep doing it 'wrong' mainly because the only thing I see coming from the way the book describes it are just more hassels and would just slow things down.

Thanks for the solid reply.
Talon Stormwarden
09-21-07, 03:55 PM As long as players aren't abusing the system, like in the example posted by Some_call_me_Tim, I don't think it's a big deal to ignore the recent casting rule. As long as the cleric is only getting his X spells per 24 hour period everything should be good.
Averroes
09-21-07, 04:44 PM Ya the good faith approach would make sense. but I can see it be exploited by the players.
I'll stick with the 8 hours of rest, pray whenever, but no spells until you've rested. Keeps all the spellcasters on the same page.
hovnarr
09-21-07, 05:18 PM Is it possible to rest 8 hours, teleport to a bad guy, kill him and take his stuff, and then (maybe 2 hours after you last woke up) repeat the whole thing? Because that could give you up to your spell total twice each day. Not that I know when it would be broken to do so though - if your party is on a BBEG killing spree, you have other things than this to worry about.
Averroes
09-21-07, 06:31 PM That would only work for Wizards and arcane casters. The Divine guys have to pray/meditate/whatever at a certian time each day.

So yes you could if you didn't have any divine casters in the group.
Ebonarc
09-21-07, 07:02 PM Is it possible to rest 8 hours, teleport to a bad guy, kill him and take his stuff, and then (maybe 2 hours after you last woke up) repeat the whole thing? Because that could give you up to your spell total twice each day. Not that I know when it would be broken to do so though - if your party is on a BBEG killing spree, you have other things than this to worry about.

Regardless of your spellcasting class, you can only prepare spells once per day (wizards can prepare their spells per day piece by piece, but that's different). Also, arcane casters must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.
Sildatorak
09-23-07, 09:28 PM The way we’ve done it is just like a wizard. Except they can pray at any time and don’t get their spells until 8 hours of rest.
This is how my group has handled it, as well. It just simplifies matters a lot.
goawayugh
09-24-07, 02:41 PM Yeah, I do what every else seems to do, have it work mechanically like a Wizard.
heffroncm
09-24-07, 03:14 PM I've had no problem running it the way it's detailed in the book. Praying at dusk is one of the limitations of being an Evil cleric, something the player has to work around. Getting all your adventuring done before noon is one way to do this.

Clerics have a small advantage in that they do not need to rest before praying for spells. Wizards have a small advantage in that they can choose not to prepare their full set of spells in the morning, and prepare the rest later with as little as 15 minutes book time. Both prepare spells once per day, both have the restriction of not being able to prepare anything cast within the past 8 hours. If the wizard beds at midnight, wakes at 3am and uses a Fireball to defend the camp, they'll be out 1 3rd level spell in the morning and need to spend an extra hour resting (so they won't be ready to prepare until 9am.)
Merestil Haye
09-24-07, 06:19 PM Wizards have a small advantage in that they can choose not to prepare their full set of spells in the morning, and prepare the rest later with as little as 15 minutes book time.You seem to be of the opinion that Clerics cannot leave some of their slots unprepared.

This is not true; they can, like the wizard, leave some slots unprepared and prepare them later, if they so wish.Spell Selection and Preparation
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.(Bolding mine.)
heffroncm
09-24-07, 07:45 PM Yes, they can leave some unfilled and fill them later. However, they only get the opportunity to pray for spells for that brief window every day. A Cleric of Pelor who prays at Dawn can't leave half his spells unfilled and fill them at Noon. The rule is in place for the sake of an encounter showing up partway through the hour of prayer. If interrupted, a Cleric can pick up again at the soonest available time without losing anything for the day.
Nom
09-24-07, 11:29 PM A Cleric of Pelor who prays at Dawn can't leave half his spells unfilled and fill them at Noon.Not at all. His slots only refresh at dawn, but he can fill slots left unused at any time (subject to the normal 15 minutes +) rule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Averroes 09-21-07, 12:17 PM	Ok this came up in a game a couple nights ago. We had set up camp after a pretty tough encounter. In the middle of the night we were attacked. Our group has a cleric, and the cleric had earlier decided that the hour of prayer for regaining his spells was a sundown. We had only been resting for a couple hours when the attack happened. The debate arose if he had all his spells or not. Here is what the D20 page says, which is pretty similar to what the PHB says. Time of Day A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells. Ok this does seem to imply that yes he would have his new spell selection. However on further reading in the Divine Magic section this came up. Recent Casting Limit As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared. So in the wizard section says. Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit. So the question: Does this mean that if the cleric who prepares their spells at Sundown cast a spell in the last 8 hours they do not get to study all their spells? For example: A cleric cast Shield Other on an ally at 6:00 P.M. and sundown (their time of prayer) is at 8:00 does this mean they are short one second level spell the next day? This is something I should know, considering how long I’ve been playing. It’s a minor detail I’d missed. But it seems like a rather inane hassle. For one I don’t want to have to keep a clock on the table showing exactly what time what happened and what time is was when they cast said spell. Without the clock I see rather annoying and time-wasting arguments. Also if a Cleric who studies their spells at any other time other than the morning if they heal up the group before they go to bed that means they will be really short on their spells when they study them. Am I reading this right? If so how do you guys treat it in your game? If not then how should it be done? The way we’ve done it is just like a wizard. Except they can pray at any time and don’t get their spells until 8 hours of rest.
Merestil Haye 09-21-07, 02:35 PM	So the question: Does this mean that if the cleric who prepares their spells at Sundown cast a spell in the last 8 hours they do not get to study all their spells? For example: A cleric cast Shield Other on an ally at 6:00 P.M. and sundown (their time of prayer) is at 8:00 does this mean they are short one second level spell the next day?Yes, that is the way it works. This is something I should know, considering how long I’ve been playing. It’s a minor detail I’d missed. But it seems like a rather inane hassle. For one I don’t want to have to keep a clock on the table showing exactly what time what happened and what time is was when they cast said spell. Without the clock I see rather annoying and time-wasting arguments.You're the DM. You say how much time has passed. You can estimate time passing quite easily by their activity level. A group on foot with one or more members in heavy armour have marched ten miles between encounters. How much time has passed? I'd estimate five hours. Also if a Cleric who studies their spells at any other time other than the morning if they heal up the group before they go to bed that means they will be really short on their spells when they study them.Maybe the group ought to unlearn their expectation of being healed when they set up camp. The Cleric doesn't have to heal them, and I'd go so far as to tell them to get a night's rest first if I were the cleric. Am I reading this right? If so how do you guys treat it in your game? If not then how should it be done? The way we’ve done it is just like a wizard. Except they can pray at any time and don’t get their spells until 8 hours of rest.Clerics don't technically need to rest between two consecutive day's spell recoveries, because they pick the time of day. I do require rest - some time between spell recharges.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-21-07, 02:43 PM	So the question: Does this mean that if the cleric who prepares their spells at Sundown cast a spell in the last 8 hours they do not get to study all their spells? For example: A cleric cast Shield Other on an ally at 6:00 P.M. and sundown (their time of prayer) is at 8:00 does this mean they are short one second level spell the next day?Yeap. Also if a Cleric who studies their spells at any other time other than the morning if they heal up the group before they go to bed that means they will be really short on their spells when they study them. Am I reading this right? If so how do you guys treat it in your game? If not then how should it be done?By the rules-as-written what you say is correct. Basically, if you don't rest right before your prayer time, you get hosed. So, if you are a cleric that prays at sundown, you better sleep during the day and adventure at night. The problem is that if this if the eight-hour run wasn't in effect, some munchkin would try and say his cleric prays a noon so he can get two day's worth of spells. Generally, we just have the spells replenish after rest like an arcane caster to avoid the problem. Another way would be to have the cleric pray at sundown as normal but the spells used just before then replenish eight hours after they were last used.
Averroes 09-21-07, 02:45 PM	Ok, Good to know we've been doing this wrong for a long time. But I think i'll keep doing it 'wrong' mainly because the only thing I see coming from the way the book describes it are just more hassels and would just slow things down. Thanks for the solid reply.
Talon Stormwarden 09-21-07, 03:55 PM	As long as players aren't abusing the system, like in the example posted by Some_call_me_Tim, I don't think it's a big deal to ignore the recent casting rule. As long as the cleric is only getting his X spells per 24 hour period everything should be good.
Averroes 09-21-07, 04:44 PM	Ya the good faith approach would make sense. but I can see it be exploited by the players. I'll stick with the 8 hours of rest, pray whenever, but no spells until you've rested. Keeps all the spellcasters on the same page.
hovnarr 09-21-07, 05:18 PM	Is it possible to rest 8 hours, teleport to a bad guy, kill him and take his stuff, and then (maybe 2 hours after you last woke up) repeat the whole thing? Because that could give you up to your spell total twice each day. Not that I know when it would be broken to do so though - if your party is on a BBEG killing spree, you have other things than this to worry about.
Averroes 09-21-07, 06:31 PM	That would only work for Wizards and arcane casters. The Divine guys have to pray/meditate/whatever at a certian time each day. So yes you could if you didn't have any divine casters in the group.
Ebonarc 09-21-07, 07:02 PM	Is it possible to rest 8 hours, teleport to a bad guy, kill him and take his stuff, and then (maybe 2 hours after you last woke up) repeat the whole thing? Because that could give you up to your spell total twice each day. Not that I know when it would be broken to do so though - if your party is on a BBEG killing spree, you have other things than this to worry about. Regardless of your spellcasting class, you can only prepare spells once per day (wizards can prepare their spells per day piece by piece, but that's different). Also, arcane casters must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.
Sildatorak 09-23-07, 09:28 PM	The way we’ve done it is just like a wizard. Except they can pray at any time and don’t get their spells until 8 hours of rest. This is how my group has handled it, as well. It just simplifies matters a lot.
goawayugh 09-24-07, 02:41 PM	Yeah, I do what every else seems to do, have it work mechanically like a Wizard.
heffroncm 09-24-07, 03:14 PM	I've had no problem running it the way it's detailed in the book. Praying at dusk is one of the limitations of being an Evil cleric, something the player has to work around. Getting all your adventuring done before noon is one way to do this. Clerics have a small advantage in that they do not need to rest before praying for spells. Wizards have a small advantage in that they can choose not to prepare their full set of spells in the morning, and prepare the rest later with as little as 15 minutes book time. Both prepare spells once per day, both have the restriction of not being able to prepare anything cast within the past 8 hours. If the wizard beds at midnight, wakes at 3am and uses a Fireball to defend the camp, they'll be out 1 3rd level spell in the morning and need to spend an extra hour resting (so they won't be ready to prepare until 9am.)
Merestil Haye 09-24-07, 06:19 PM	Wizards have a small advantage in that they can choose not to prepare their full set of spells in the morning, and prepare the rest later with as little as 15 minutes book time.You seem to be of the opinion that Clerics cannot leave some of their slots unprepared. This is not true; they can, like the wizard, leave some slots unprepared and prepare them later, if they so wish.Spell Selection and Preparation A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.(Bolding mine.)
heffroncm 09-24-07, 07:45 PM	Yes, they can leave some unfilled and fill them later. However, they only get the opportunity to pray for spells for that brief window every day. A Cleric of Pelor who prays at Dawn can't leave half his spells unfilled and fill them at Noon. The rule is in place for the sake of an encounter showing up partway through the hour of prayer. If interrupted, a Cleric can pick up again at the soonest available time without losing anything for the day.
Nom 09-24-07, 11:29 PM	A Cleric of Pelor who prays at Dawn can't leave half his spells unfilled and fill them at Noon.Not at all. His slots only refresh at dawn, but he can fill slots left unused at any time (subject to the normal 15 minutes +) rule.