Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Coldkilla 05-07-07, 10:37 AM	Let's say your ally has gone down and is lying prone and helpless in a threatened square. You are standing in an adjacent but non-threatened square and would like to pull him into yours in order to heal/stabilize him. 1. Can you do it? It's been argued that you MUST enter his square to do anything to him, but this doesn't make any sense to me. 2. What type of action is it? Move equivalent or standard? 3. Should you have to roll a touch attack to grab hold? 4. Should you have to make some sort of STR check with DC based on his weight and your load capacity? 5. Does it provoke AOO on him since he's being moved out of a threatened square? 6. What if all you want to do is cast a Cure spell on him? Then just a touch attack, with automatic success because he's helpless and helpless targets are always considered willing, right? I couldn't find anything in the RAW or the boards to address this situation.
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 11:41 AM	1. Yes, you can do it. Yes, you must enter his square. The idea of five foot squares in this game are an abstract concept. During fights, people don't really stand in separate five foot squares and swing at each other. They move around, frequently closer than five feet. To get to your fallen friend, you will likely be coming closer than ten feet but farther than zero feet from the enemy. That places you in the five foot square away from the enemy. The movement into the square does not provoke an attack of opportunity from your opponent, but the dragging does. As a move action, you can drag something up to your heavy load up to five feet. This provokes attacks of opportunity on both you and your ally that you are dragging. If you don't want to provoke an attack of opportunity, you need to work with the other players and the DM. You or another player must make a Bluff check opposed by the target's sense motive to distract him. Given the nature of the distraction, your DM might say that this will throw him off-balance so that he is unable to take the attack of opportunity when you step in to drag your friend away. 2. Move equivalent unless the body weighs more than your heavy load. If it weighs more than your heavy load, it is a full-round action. 3. The body is not moving, so I would not require a touch attack. That would be up to your DM, though. 4. There are no rules for that, but if you want to drag a body that weighs more than your heavy load in less than a full round action, then yes, I would have the DM make up a Str DC. 5. It provokes attacks of opportunity on both of you, since both of you are moving out of a threatened square. (Unless your DM agrees to allow you to distract him). 6. Yes.
mvincent 05-07-07, 01:00 PM	you must enter his squareActually, it's been established that you can manipulate objects in adjacent squares (i.e. you can certainly say, take something from someone in an adjacent square). Sometimes, this is the only way to do so (i.e. if your ally was still conscious, you wouldn't even be able to enter her square).
olshanski_home 05-07-07, 02:16 PM	Perhaps you can manipulate large objects in adjacent squares, but I rule that in order to lift an object or person, you must occupy the same square. For an example of the rules: To establish a hold in a grapple, you must occupy the same space as the thing you are holding. If the 5' grid lines were actual physical grid lines, and you imagine that a human is standing in the middle of the square, trying to pick up a flask in the middle of an adjacent square, he would have to have arms 5' long in order to reach. Since your arms are always shorter than half your height, a person would have to be about 10 feet tall in order to reach that far.
olshanski_home 05-07-07, 02:17 PM	(i.e. if your ally was still conscious, you wouldn't even be able to enter her square). You can most certainly enter the same square as a conscious ally. You can freely pass through an ally's square even in combat, though you cannot end your turn in an ally's square in combat. Outside of combat, there is nothing that says you cannot occupy the same square as an ally. You can even pass through an enemy's square with a high tumble check, but you cannot end your turn in an enemy-occupied square during combat.
mvincent 05-07-07, 02:23 PM	You can most certainly enter the same square as a conscious ally.I think you know what I meant. Outside of combat, there is nothing that says you cannot occupy the same square as an ally.Outside of combat, this whole issue doesn't even matter.
mvincent 05-07-07, 02:29 PM	To establish a hold in a grapple, you must occupy the same space as the thing you are holding.That appears to be incorrect. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple): "Step 4 Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. ." Establishing a hold is done in step 3 of the grapple rules. You are not in the same square as your opponent when you first grab them. It is not until after you are already grappling (and you have damaged them even) that you move into their square.
darkeness 05-07-07, 02:33 PM	Let's say your ally has gone down and is lying prone and helpless in a threatened square. You are standing in an adjacent but non-threatened square and would like to pull him into yours in order to heal/stabilize him. 1. Can you do it? It's been argued that you MUST enter his square to do anything to him, but this doesn't make any sense to me. 2. What type of action is it? Move equivalent or standard? 3. Should you have to roll a touch attack to grab hold? 4. Should you have to make some sort of STR check with DC based on his weight and your load capacity? 5. Does it provoke AOO on him since he's being moved out of a threatened square? What you want to do is a grapple check on a helpless target. That would not provoke an AoO since the target is helpless. It would require a touch attack (AC 1+, 10 (base)-5 (0 dex)-4 (prone)+any deflection or size bonus). As a DM I would rule it "only miss on a 1". As long as you had the str to move them I wouldn't see it as an issue. You would also have to have your hands free to initiate the grapple. Unless a DM is out to kill off a chararacter or the party I can't see why he would make this a difficult manuver. 6. What if all you want to do is cast a Cure spell on him? Then just a touch attack, with automatic success because he's helpless and helpless targets are always considered willing, right? correct (worse case scenerio use the "only miss on a 1" rule) Edit: That appears to be incorrect. From the rules: "Step 4 Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. ." my bad I thought you pulled your target into your square on a grapple. (*mutters*... stupid grapple rules). So I guess it does provoke an AoO as you drag your fallen ally away (see tos_shai_hulud post, I guess his is the mst logical ruling I've seen thus far).
olshanski_home 05-07-07, 03:14 PM	I think you know what I meant. Outside of combat, this whole issue doesn't even matter. I can imagine a non-combat example of this would be if a person triggers a proximity trap and falls unconscious in a hallway. The question is: Can an ally pull the person out from an adjacent space without triggering the proximity trap, or do they have to enter the same square, and thus run the risk of triggering the same trap again. As far as the grapple: You are correct that maintaining a hold requires the characters to occupy the same space, while just grabbing someone can be done from an adjacent space. I'll stand by my ruling that you cannot lift up an unattended object without (however briefly) entering its square. As far as disarm/trip: those are actions that involve manipulating an adjacent space, and by the nature of the AoO that is provoked, I am assuming that you are certainly far enough in the opponents space to provoke AoO... it is for the sake of ease of rules that you end your turn in your original space. HOUSE RULE ALERT: I have a house rule that you can insert a move-equivalent action in the midst of any other move action. This works similar to flyby attack or shot on the run or spring attack, wit the exception that you don't need a special feat (everyone can do it), and you do not have any protection from AoO. For example, a person with a speed of 30 could move 2 squares, open a door, and then move 4 more squares. A person with a speed of 40 could move 1 squares, pick up an object, and then move 7 more squares. This rather simple house rule fixes a lot of troubling situations, such as people getting piled up waiting for a door to open, or picking up an object 5 feet away and still being able to move significantly.
mvincent 05-07-07, 03:18 PM	Can an ally pull the person out from an adjacent space without triggering the proximity trap, or do they have to enter the same square, and thus run the risk of triggering the same trap again.Let's say it's a pit trap (which your party is aware of) and your gnome rogue (who is not heavy enough to trigger the pit trap) has fallen unconscious on top of it. I'm fairly certain I could drag the gnome away without standing on top of the pit trap. You?
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 03:22 PM	Let's say it's a pit trap (which your party is aware of) and your gnome rogue (who is not heavy enough to trigger the pit trap) has fallen unconscious on top of it. I'm fairly certain I could drag the gnome away without standing on top of the pit trap. You? Let's say the warforged rogue (weight 250 lbs) falls on the proximity trigger for a fireball, taking enough damage to make him disabled. The gnome fighter decides to drag him away. The gnome's heavy load is 200 lbs. I'm fairly certain I could not drag the warforged away without standing on top of the proximity trigger, thus setting it off. You?
mvincent 05-07-07, 03:31 PM	Let's say the warforged rogue (weight 250 lbs) falls on the proximity trigger for a fireball, taking enough damage to make him disabled. The gnome fighter decides to drag him away. The gnome's heavy load is 200 lbs. I'm fairly certain I could not drag the warforged away without standing on top of the proximity trigger, thus setting it off. You?Yup. I've dragged lots of heavy bodies*. If you can grab something on someone's belt without entering their square (example: empty-handed disarm on a prone opponent), then you can certainly start dragging someone without entering their square. * infantry training, police training, firefighter training, the occasional unruly forum poster, etc.
olshanski_home 05-07-07, 03:41 PM	I see now that I misread the OP's question. I need to take back my comments The OP wants to know if you can drag someone from an adjacent square. I was considering the question of lifting someone. Yes, I think you can drag a person from an adjacent square. I believe the person getting dragged and the person dragging provokes AoO. (The person doing the dragging provokes because it is similar to "picking up an item". The person getting dragged provokes becuase it is movement out of a threatened square.). I allow a cleric to cast a healing spell from an adjacent square. If the person receiving the healing is unconscious, I require a character to occupy the same space in order to use a heal check to stabilize the character or in order to administer a healing potion. I still allow heal spells to be administered from adjacent spaces.
Coldkilla 05-07-07, 04:15 PM	1. Yes, you can do it. Yes, you must enter his square. The idea of five foot squares in this game are an abstract concept. I get that there is abstraction and simplification inherent in the space and reach rules, but ruling that you have to enter the target's square leads to all sorts of paradoxes and absurdities. It doesn't make sense in the context of the combat rules as applied to an unarmed attack against a prone target. You can hit someone lying down in the square next to you with your fist/foot without entering their square and it is actually easier to do so than if they are standing up. Why wouldn't it be possible to simply grab hold and drag (not lift, not fiddle with, not bind wounds -- just drag) an inert, helpless target from the abstracted "edge" of your square? Plus, they're just a peculiarly shaped object at that point, and you don't have to apply grapple rules everytime you interact with objects, even if they are in the next square. Or what about this scenario: A colossal (30 ft space, 30 ft reach) being stands in a 30ft wide room. He wants to grab a medium-size, helpless foe that is 30ft away and pull him towards him. But the helpless foe is in a 5ft wide corridor. The colossal grabber can't fit so he can't enter the target's space. What then?
mvincent 05-07-07, 04:21 PM	what about this scenario: A colossal (30 ft space, 30 ft reach) being stands in a 30ft wide room. He wants to grab a medium-size, helpless foe that is 30ft away and pull him towards him. But the helpless foe is in a 5ft wide corridor. The colossal grabber can't fit so he can't enter the target's space. What then?That's usually what Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) is for: "When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space."
Coldkilla 05-07-07, 04:58 PM	That's usually what Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) is for: "When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space." Yes, but that is against an active conscious opponent. We're essentially talking about an inert object -- a sack of meat, if you will -- here.
PenderGrass 05-07-07, 04:59 PM	First, it would be much more simple to view a helpless ally (i.e., knocked out from damage) to no longer be a creature, but has now become equipment. This removes the necessity for "grapple," other complicated rulings and so forth. Second, sure reaching into an adjacent square to attempt to drag someone away is possible - is it possible to do it without provoking an AoO? Doubtful. Finally, helpless targets are not always considered willing. Even sleeping targets are allowed a save vs. fireballs. :dragon: ****
mvincent 05-07-07, 05:22 PM	Yes, but that is against an active conscious opponent. We're essentially talking about an inert object -- a sack of meat, if you will -- here.Are you saying that it would take more effort to grab the belt of an unconscious individual than one that is actively trying to avoid you?
Coldkilla 05-07-07, 05:43 PM	Are you saying that it would take more effort to grab the belt of an unconscious individual than one that is actively trying to avoid you? No, just the opposite. I'm saying that it is much easier to grab the arm/leg/belt/clothing of an unconscious creature, effectively making them an object for the purposes of this interaction; therefore the grappling rules and the Improved Grab feat should not even apply.
mvincent 05-07-07, 05:47 PM	No, just the opposite. Ah. Got it. My bad... I thought you had quoted a different statement of mine.
Morray 05-30-07, 09:18 AM	Yes, I think you can drag a person from an adjacent square. I believe the person getting dragged and the person dragging provokes AoO. (The person doing the dragging provokes because it is similar to "picking up an item". The person getting dragged provokes becuase it is movement out of a threatened square.). It doesn't provoke an AOO if you pick something up from a square unless 'your' square is threatened. Not the square the item is picked up from. Since it's been established you don't have to enter their square to grab them. If the dragged item is on the front line, you behind him the attacker in front of him, and you are trying to pull them back from the front line I do not believe this should provoke an AOO on the puller. Also, if they are only being dragged back into the puller's square then it's a 5ft move isn't it? Which wouldn't provoke AOO's either.
Kouk 06-01-07, 02:22 AM	1. Rules are fuzzy here. I house rule that you can deal with size Small or larger objects from an adjacent square. Smaller than that you have to enter the square. Note I said objects and not making special attacks against creatures. 2. Manipulate an Item In most cases, moving or manipulating an item is a move action. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Move Actions. This would indicate that moving a heavy item is a "manipulate an item" move action. The chart entry for "Move a Heavy Object" says it does provoke attacks of opportunity. 3. If it is a helpless target, it can be counted as an object. So you would not really have to roll to grab it (for purposes of moving it) but if you wanted to attack it you still would have to roll (or use a full round action to not miss an object). 4. The rules don't call for any checks to move or carry items. It doesn't take a check to lift twice your weight over your head, and it doesn't take a check to drag up to 5 times your carrying capacity as normal. If you want to allow some kind of tremendous feat of strength, such as moving more than 5 times your carry weight (on normal ground), or lifting more than twice your carry weight (for short periods) then a strength check would probably be justified. 5. I would say it provokes an attack of opportunity for the unconscious character because he would still be moving out of a square, and there is no exception given for being unconscious in the movement rules. Since "Move a Heavy Object" also provokes, then both characters involved would provoke from threatening enemies. One provokes for movement out of a threatened square, and one provokes for performing a move equivalent action that provokes. 6. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Touch You must touch a creature or object to affect it. ... Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. It would seem casting a spell on the person would not be at all difficult, because he is willing. If you decide to treat him as an object, he is still willing:Saving Throws Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells In the sense that they always fail their saves (this is if you are very, very adamant about now treating the downed character as an object, I would just count him as a willing creature for purposes of the spell). It may be a bit tricky though on whether you would have to still try and touch him if you are treating him as an object (because you must still roll to attack objects with melee unless you take a full round action, as covered in Smashing an Object). I would normally not bother with calling for an attack roll for just touching an object though, my interpretation of the Smashing an Object rules is that you are attacking it (with a weapon or unarmed strike) for the purpose of doing damage to it, not just touching it. Especially for just trying to heal your friend, I think you can let an attack roll slide.
mvincent 06-01-07, 12:31 PM	In the sense that they always fail their saves (this is if you are very, very adamant about now treating the downed character as an object, I would just count him as a willing creature for purposes of the spell).To clarify: unconscious creatures do not automatically fail saving throws. They are merely treated as "willing" in the sense that they can be targeted by spells that require a willing target (i.e. "willing" applies to the "target" line of the spell, but not the "saving throw" line).
Millennium 06-01-07, 01:52 PM	1. Can you do it? It's been argued that you MUST enter his square to do anything to him, but this doesn't make any sense to me. The rules are silent on whether you can drag someone into your square, but I don't see why it shouldn't necessarily be possible. 2. What type of action is it? Move equivalent or standard? I'd rate it as full-round, to be honest. People are awkward and heavy. But judging from the things others have said, RAW seems to be against me. 3. Should you have to roll a touch attack to grab hold? Not in most circumstances. A helpless person may be big and heavy, but they're not really doing anything, so just getting a hold of the person should be easy. 4. Should you have to make some sort of STR check with DC based on his weight and your load capacity? I'd say not unless you're already carrying a heavy load. Most people can drag a person five feet without any problems. 5. Does it provoke AOO on him since he's being moved out of a threatened square? I'd say no, because he's already helpless. However, I'd also say that the person doing the dragging provokes AoOs if anyone is threatening him. 6. What if all you want to do is cast a Cure spell on him? Then just a touch attack, with automatic success because he's helpless and helpless targets are always considered willing, right? Yep.
mvincent 06-01-07, 02:14 PM	I'd rate it as full-round, to be honest. People are awkward and heavy. But judging from the things others have said, RAW seems to be against me.Actually, the rules say: "Lifting and Dragging A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head. A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action). A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load." ... so they could be with you.
Kouk 06-01-07, 04:51 PM	Actually, the rules say: "Lifting and Dragging A character can lift as much as his or her maximum load over his or her head. A character can lift as much as double his or her maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action). A character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load." ... so they could be with you. It specifically says that only for when you pick something up off the ground and try to walk. Dragging something that is heavy is often easier than trying to pick it up because you aren't fighting gravity. It depends on the surface somewhat though. And that quote of mine earlier was from when I was talking about treating the unconscious person as an object (which is one option).