Question about fireball [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question about fireball [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dark Moon Dragyn
03-26-07, 09:42 PM Not sure if this is the proper forum to ask this, but considering this is the rules section and the wording of the text is obscure, I figured this would be my best shot.

I was reading through the description of the Fireball spell and it says that so long as the bead you shoot out of your finger doesn't strike a material body or solid obstacle it travels it's range and explodes. Does this mean that if you cast fireball down a hallway to explode behind the target, it will hit the target and explode when it touches him or does it go around the target? I'm just thinking about this from a logical standpoint, and yes I am aware that logic has very little to do with D&D rules.

I.E. Say you have a 5 foot hallway with a PC in combat with an NPC in a doorway to a room. The wizard decides to cast fireball to explode behind the NPC. Since both the NPC and the other PC are in the way, does it mean that when the bead hits the PC it detonates or does it go around both the PC and the NPC?

I know it seems ****-retentive, but that's how I am when it comes to the rules.

Edit: Ok i reread the rules and it says that you pick distance and height. So I'm guessing that a wizard could aim it over their heads or to shoot in a line over their heads and explode behind the NPC, but if it's only a radius and not a sphere that means it wouldn't expand to hit the NPC or am I reading something wrong?
primemover003
03-26-07, 09:49 PM A creature isn't an intervening barrier. You could easily shoot the pea past the first rank in a tight hallway. The ranged touch attack comes from things like arrowslits, slowly closing blast doors, shooting it through air vents in ancient temples, etc.
Mystic Theurge
03-26-07, 09:53 PM Since the fireball flies straight, it can't be "lobbed", so as soon as the bead encounters something it can't get past, it would explode. You should draw a line from a corner of the caster's square to the place the caster designates, and if it goes through any part of a square with an object or creature, it would explode prematurely. Now, in respect to having a creature in the way, you could force the caster to roll a ranged touch attack vs. the touch AC of the creature in the way. If it touches, the fireball prematurely explodes.
Tichrimo
03-26-07, 09:59 PM I, too, was a little boggled by some spells' need for attack rolls, where others allowed pinpoint accuracy at the drop of a hat. I houseruled the following:

Aiming any spell that doesn't already have explicit targeting rules will be governed by spellcraft skill checks.

The caster must make a Spellcraft skill check against: (DC 10 + spell level + situational modifier(s))

Situational modifiers (all signed to affect the DC ):

Range (-2/0/+2/+4/+6) -- Range increments will be calculated as (max range / 5) . In the fireball example, an 8th level sorcerer has a max range of 720', so 0-143 is point-blank, 144-287 is short, etc.
Movement (0/+2/+4) -- Hitting a stationary target is easier. Go figure. The three values cover off stationary, moving/running, actively dodging. No penalty or bonus for targetting a square, since this is the assumed default.
Discrete target (+/-2 per factor) -- Hitting a faerie-fired storm giant in the middle of a golf course on a sunny day is easier than hitting a ghostly-visaged pixie grappling with five gnomes in dense fog. Again, no bonus or penalty for targetting a square, since this is the default. Factors to consider: lighting, relative size, cover, etc.
Distractions (+2 per factor) -- Factors include: weather, damage, being poked incessantly in the nose... Note that the caster may have to make a Concentration check to accomplish the spell casting at all, followed by a Spellcraft check to see if he can still aim it precisely.
DM's discretion on other stuff (-200/.../+200) -- otherwise it wouldn't be D&D. :)

Caster can take 10 or take 20 as per normal skill check rules. Blowing the skill check will be handled per the grenade-like weapon rules (d8 for direction, one square per range increment).
Nom
03-27-07, 01:24 AM The first trick to understanding fireball and attack rolls is to understand the "line of effect" rules. "An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect." (PH pg 176). If LoE is not blocked, fireball doesn't need an attack roll any more than any other 'effect' or 'target' spell does.

What is interesting about fireball is that the text gives an explicit exception that allows shooting a fireball when the hole is normally small enough to block LoE. Thus, you can send a fireball through an arrow slit or small window if you succeed on a ranged touch attack, even though you couldn't send any other 'effect' or 'target' spell through that hole.
Sildatorak
03-27-07, 11:44 AM Now, in respect to having a creature in the way, you could force the caster to roll a ranged touch attack vs. the touch AC of the creature in the way. If it touches, the fireball prematurely explodes.That seems just wrong to me. The better the caster is at ranged touches, the more likely she is to have his fireball hit someone he doesn't want?

Personally, I think you'll be able to aim the fireball past creatures with no problem unless they are specifically trying to get in the way of it. The wizard won't be aiming at them (assuming she wants it to go past them), and they will most likely be trying to avoid it. I know that I would try to dodge some little projectile someone shot in my general direction after casting a spell.
Dunamin
03-28-07, 02:30 PM So I'm guessing that a wizard could aim it over their heads or to shoot in a line over their heads and explode behind the NPC, but if it's only a radius and not a sphere that means it wouldn't expand to hit the NPC or am I reading something wrong?
You're messing up geometric terms. A radius is the length of a line segment between the center and circumference of a circle or sphere.
The area of a fireball is a 20 ft radius spread. That means it will fill to make a sphere if there is nothing blocking the spread.
Man in the Funny Hat
03-30-07, 03:28 AM Nom and Dunamin are correct. Fireball is a 20' radius spread and operates as any other radius spread spell for purposes of targetting and effects with two exceptions. One, is that it can detonate prematurely, but with few exceptions this will only happen if there is an UNSEEN barrier between the caster and his intended target location. The second is that it can, with a ranged touch attack roll, be placed where other radius spreads could not, such as the OTHER side of an arrow slit - through a narrow opening.

A creature occupying a square is not necessarily an intervening barrier for a fireball spell any more than it is an intervening barrier for an archer targetting beyond the occupied square with an arrow shot. Just because something is there doesn't mean that anyone can, or IS using it as cover from missile fire or spell effects.

The rest is window dressing - descriptive text that actually has no effect on how the spell is handled within the rules.
Nom
03-30-07, 07:20 PM A creature occupying a square is not necessarily an intervening barrier for a fireball spell any more than it is an intervening barrier for an archer targetting beyond the occupied square with an arrow shot.Well, unless it's a gelatinous cube it's not a barrier for fireball, while for a missile shot (or a ray) it would provide cover.
pookha
04-02-07, 03:19 PM After having seen a caster cast a fireball, a smart pc could ready an action to block the pea with a solid object (such as a shield). This could be useful for the melee tank protecting the backline sorcerer. I would not give the blocking player a saving throw and the effect would be centered on the blocker.

In the campaigns we play, we allow as a house rule Tanking a fireball (and a few other spells) which is more like diving on a grenade and taking full damage, but it means the fireball only extends 5' from the tanker.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark Moon Dragyn 03-26-07, 09:42 PM	Not sure if this is the proper forum to ask this, but considering this is the rules section and the wording of the text is obscure, I figured this would be my best shot. I was reading through the description of the Fireball spell and it says that so long as the bead you shoot out of your finger doesn't strike a material body or solid obstacle it travels it's range and explodes. Does this mean that if you cast fireball down a hallway to explode behind the target, it will hit the target and explode when it touches him or does it go around the target? I'm just thinking about this from a logical standpoint, and yes I am aware that logic has very little to do with D&D rules. I.E. Say you have a 5 foot hallway with a PC in combat with an NPC in a doorway to a room. The wizard decides to cast fireball to explode behind the NPC. Since both the NPC and the other PC are in the way, does it mean that when the bead hits the PC it detonates or does it go around both the PC and the NPC? I know it seems ****-retentive, but that's how I am when it comes to the rules. Edit: Ok i reread the rules and it says that you pick distance and height. So I'm guessing that a wizard could aim it over their heads or to shoot in a line over their heads and explode behind the NPC, but if it's only a radius and not a sphere that means it wouldn't expand to hit the NPC or am I reading something wrong?
primemover003 03-26-07, 09:49 PM	A creature isn't an intervening barrier. You could easily shoot the pea past the first rank in a tight hallway. The ranged touch attack comes from things like arrowslits, slowly closing blast doors, shooting it through air vents in ancient temples, etc.
Mystic Theurge 03-26-07, 09:53 PM	Since the fireball flies straight, it can't be "lobbed", so as soon as the bead encounters something it can't get past, it would explode. You should draw a line from a corner of the caster's square to the place the caster designates, and if it goes through any part of a square with an object or creature, it would explode prematurely. Now, in respect to having a creature in the way, you could force the caster to roll a ranged touch attack vs. the touch AC of the creature in the way. If it touches, the fireball prematurely explodes.
Tichrimo 03-26-07, 09:59 PM	I, too, was a little boggled by some spells' need for attack rolls, where others allowed pinpoint accuracy at the drop of a hat. I houseruled the following: Aiming any spell that doesn't already have explicit targeting rules will be governed by spellcraft skill checks. The caster must make a Spellcraft skill check against: (DC 10 + spell level + situational modifier(s)) Situational modifiers (all signed to affect the DC ): Range (-2/0/+2/+4/+6) -- Range increments will be calculated as (max range / 5) . In the fireball example, an 8th level sorcerer has a max range of 720', so 0-143 is point-blank, 144-287 is short, etc. Movement (0/+2/+4) -- Hitting a stationary target is easier. Go figure. The three values cover off stationary, moving/running, actively dodging. No penalty or bonus for targetting a square, since this is the assumed default. Discrete target (+/-2 per factor) -- Hitting a faerie-fired storm giant in the middle of a golf course on a sunny day is easier than hitting a ghostly-visaged pixie grappling with five gnomes in dense fog. Again, no bonus or penalty for targetting a square, since this is the default. Factors to consider: lighting, relative size, cover, etc. Distractions (+2 per factor) -- Factors include: weather, damage, being poked incessantly in the nose... Note that the caster may have to make a Concentration check to accomplish the spell casting at all, followed by a Spellcraft check to see if he can still aim it precisely. DM's discretion on other stuff (-200/.../+200) -- otherwise it wouldn't be D&D. :) Caster can take 10 or take 20 as per normal skill check rules. Blowing the skill check will be handled per the grenade-like weapon rules (d8 for direction, one square per range increment).
Nom 03-27-07, 01:24 AM	The first trick to understanding fireball and attack rolls is to understand the "line of effect" rules. "An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect." (PH pg 176). If LoE is not blocked, fireball doesn't need an attack roll any more than any other 'effect' or 'target' spell does. What is interesting about fireball is that the text gives an explicit exception that allows shooting a fireball when the hole is normally small enough to block LoE. Thus, you can send a fireball through an arrow slit or small window if you succeed on a ranged touch attack, even though you couldn't send any other 'effect' or 'target' spell through that hole.
Sildatorak 03-27-07, 11:44 AM	Now, in respect to having a creature in the way, you could force the caster to roll a ranged touch attack vs. the touch AC of the creature in the way. If it touches, the fireball prematurely explodes.That seems just wrong to me. The better the caster is at ranged touches, the more likely she is to have his fireball hit someone he doesn't want? Personally, I think you'll be able to aim the fireball past creatures with no problem unless they are specifically trying to get in the way of it. The wizard won't be aiming at them (assuming she wants it to go past them), and they will most likely be trying to avoid it. I know that I would try to dodge some little projectile someone shot in my general direction after casting a spell.
Dunamin 03-28-07, 02:30 PM	So I'm guessing that a wizard could aim it over their heads or to shoot in a line over their heads and explode behind the NPC, but if it's only a radius and not a sphere that means it wouldn't expand to hit the NPC or am I reading something wrong? You're messing up geometric terms. A radius is the length of a line segment between the center and circumference of a circle or sphere. The area of a fireball is a 20 ft radius spread. That means it will fill to make a sphere if there is nothing blocking the spread.
Man in the Funny Hat 03-30-07, 03:28 AM	Nom and Dunamin are correct. Fireball is a 20' radius spread and operates as any other radius spread spell for purposes of targetting and effects with two exceptions. One, is that it can detonate prematurely, but with few exceptions this will only happen if there is an UNSEEN barrier between the caster and his intended target location. The second is that it can, with a ranged touch attack roll, be placed where other radius spreads could not, such as the OTHER side of an arrow slit - through a narrow opening. A creature occupying a square is not necessarily an intervening barrier for a fireball spell any more than it is an intervening barrier for an archer targetting beyond the occupied square with an arrow shot. Just because something is there doesn't mean that anyone can, or IS using it as cover from missile fire or spell effects. The rest is window dressing - descriptive text that actually has no effect on how the spell is handled within the rules.
Nom 03-30-07, 07:20 PM	A creature occupying a square is not necessarily an intervening barrier for a fireball spell any more than it is an intervening barrier for an archer targetting beyond the occupied square with an arrow shot.Well, unless it's a gelatinous cube it's not a barrier for fireball, while for a missile shot (or a ray) it would provide cover.
pookha 04-02-07, 03:19 PM	After having seen a caster cast a fireball, a smart pc could ready an action to block the pea with a solid object (such as a shield). This could be useful for the melee tank protecting the backline sorcerer. I would not give the blocking player a saving throw and the effect would be centered on the blocker. In the campaigns we play, we allow as a house rule Tanking a fireball (and a few other spells) which is more like diving on a grenade and taking full damage, but it means the fireball only extends 5' from the tanker.