Question About NPC's and Gear [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question About NPC's and Gear [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dark Moon Dragyn
03-08-07, 04:03 PM I have a question regarding NPC's with templates and how to figure out how much gear they have.

I have a friend of mine who is looking to throw a lich against a group of players. He will eventually be a Wiz20 with the Lich template added which will make him a CR 22 but will make his ECL a 24.

When figuring out equipment, which do I go by...at that level it doesn't make much of a difference, but I'm really ****-retentive when it comes to the rules so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
DMD
codonell
03-08-07, 11:51 PM 3.5 rules say "NPC Level 20 - 220,000gp" worth of gear. Done.
runestar
03-09-07, 12:32 AM For npcs, go with cr.
A wiz20 with the lich template is cr22, so he will have gear appropriate for a cr22 NPC. Not sure how much that is though, but probably sufficient to outfit him adequately.:)
Marcus Majarra
03-09-07, 01:40 AM Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character.
KurenaiYami
03-09-07, 01:43 AM Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character.

QFT.

CR is only used by DM's as an approximation of how difficult something is when compared to a group of four PCs.
runestar
03-09-07, 06:53 AM Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character.
Except that the OP explicitly mentioned that the lich is intended as a BBEG to be thrown against the party. As such, it would be played as an NPC, and thus accrue gear as an NPC of its appropriate cr.

There is a fine line between gear suitable for a cr22 NPC, and gear appropriate for a ECL24 PC...;)
sciguy98
03-09-07, 10:39 AM There's a table in PHB2 that specifically addresses the starting gold (more like gear value) of an NPC. It only goes up to level 20, but an extrapolation could be easily made. Once you have the lich's gear sorted, remove the excess gold and determine his treasure value. Subtract the cost of the gear from this value. This is the new value of the treasure he would have. Choose coin, goods, items as appropriate treasure.
Matthew77
03-09-07, 11:01 AM It has always puzzled me how the NPC wealth guidelines and the treasure for EL guidelines have a vast gap between them.

If an NPC is CR X and is supposed to have 220,000 gp is gear, then how come the recommended treasure for defeating him is supposed to be only 80,000gp worth, what the heck happens to the other 140,000?

Is that the cost of him hiring minions and building a stronghold? Is is supposed to be all one-shot magical items that he uses up fighting the party?

To the OP: just remember that everything the BBEG has can eventually be looted by the party.
mvincent
03-09-07, 12:26 PM Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character.Nope. From the DMG (page 51), Monsters With Classes:
"...first give them equipment. Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equipment. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry..."
Marcus Majarra
03-09-07, 02:58 PM Wait, it gets NPC wealth AND treasure? If I understand this correctly, the lich in question here would receive the wealth of a 20th-level NPC, plus standard coins, double goods, and double items for a CR 22 opponent?

This means that the lich would come with...

220,000 gp of equipment (NPC wealth)
2 major magic items
2% chance of no coins or 63% chance of 4d8 x 1,000 gp or 35% chance of 4d10 x 100 pp
2% chance of no goods or 36% chance of 2x 4d10 gems or 62% chance of 2x 7d6 art
25% chance of no other magic items or 40% chance of an extra 2x 1d4 medium magic items or 35% chance of an extra 2x 1d3 major magic items
mvincent
03-09-07, 03:04 PM Wait, it gets NPC wealth AND treasure? If I understand this correctly, the lich in question here would receive the wealth of a 20th-level NPC, plus standard coins, double goods, and double items for a CR 22 opponent?No, it would only have the treasure of the base creature (i.e. without any character levels) when adding to NPC gear.

Alternately, you could skip the NPC gear and simply give out treasure based on the lich's CR.

Now, if you were making a lich PC, the starting gear would be based on the ECL total.
Cantankerous
03-09-07, 03:12 PM It actually gives some boss type monsters a bit more of an edge...which helps in a small way to make up for the fact that they have so much less in portable wealth in gear than a player character of equal level.

A 20th level NPC Wizard has 220,000GP worth of gear while that's about the same as a PC of 5 levels lower is expected to have and considerably less than one third of what a PC of 20th level is expected to have.

All in all it works out quite ok in my experience.

Take a Nymph, she has a pretty good chance of throwing in three completely random (there is part of the saving grace here) minor items on top of whatever she's getting from any character classes thrown in, usually acheived there by the adding of a template to change her type to one that allows advancement by classes or by house ruling. If she's got 8 levels of Monk thrown in too (I used this particular combo once, damned dicey it was too) she gets her gear as an 8th level NPC plus whatever items (if any) that might be from her "hoard". It made this "Protectress of the Deeping Glades" a bit more of a challenge and turned what might have been a fluff encounter for the 10th level party into something more memorable. The back story for how a usually CG member of the Fey race becomes a Monk was a blast too.

Isshia
Marcus Majarra
03-09-07, 03:22 PM No, it would only have the treasure of the base creature (i.e. without any character levels) when adding to NPC gear.
Where is this stated? Page 51 indicates that you build its treasure according to its monster entry and the treasure building rules, which are based on the encounter's level.

Basically, this means that you generate treasure for the encounter one on side (based on the EL; given a 20th-level lich, we're talking about at least EL 22), and then you resolve individual wealth for monsters with class levels.

There's evidence of this on page 55, under NPCs with Treasure.
Cantankerous
03-09-07, 03:34 PM Where is this stated? Page 51 indicates that you build its treasure according to its monster entry and the treasure building rules, which are based on the encounter's level.

Basically, this means that you generate treasure for the encounter one on side (based on the EL; given a 20th-level lich, we're talking about at least EL 22), and then you resolve individual wealth for monsters with class levels.

There's evidence of this on page 55, under NPCs with Treasure.

Under the section "Monsters with Classes" on page 51 of the DMG 3.5.

Isshia
mvincent
03-09-07, 04:36 PM Where is this stated? This topic has been conclusively discussed before (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10770533) and here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3167993)).
Marcus Majarra
03-10-07, 04:52 PM I've just read through both threads, and I don't see how this was discussed conclusively. It's mostly a matter of the Monster Manual vs. the Dungeon Master Guide, but I'd see the DMG as being more appropriate, since it boasts a far greater amount of information concerning encounters and rewards (as well as NPCs, for that matter).

The only dubious statement is:"Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry." While I understand how this could be interpreted as resolving treasure according to the printed monster CR in the MM, the only treasure information the monster entry provides is on the ratio of coins/art/magic items the monster rewards you with. This is logical too, since treasure isn't calculated based on each monster; it's calculated based on the entire encounter.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dark Moon Dragyn 03-08-07, 04:03 PM	I have a question regarding NPC's with templates and how to figure out how much gear they have. I have a friend of mine who is looking to throw a lich against a group of players. He will eventually be a Wiz20 with the Lich template added which will make him a CR 22 but will make his ECL a 24. When figuring out equipment, which do I go by...at that level it doesn't make much of a difference, but I'm really ****-retentive when it comes to the rules so any help would be appreciated. Thanks, DMD
codonell 03-08-07, 11:51 PM	3.5 rules say "NPC Level 20 - 220,000gp" worth of gear. Done.
runestar 03-09-07, 12:32 AM	For npcs, go with cr. A wiz20 with the lich template is cr22, so he will have gear appropriate for a cr22 NPC. Not sure how much that is though, but probably sufficient to outfit him adequately.:)
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 01:40 AM	Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character.
KurenaiYami 03-09-07, 01:43 AM	Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character. QFT. CR is only used by DM's as an approximation of how difficult something is when compared to a group of four PCs.
runestar 03-09-07, 06:53 AM	Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character. Except that the OP explicitly mentioned that the lich is intended as a BBEG to be thrown against the party. As such, it would be played as an NPC, and thus accrue gear as an NPC of its appropriate cr. There is a fine line between gear suitable for a cr22 NPC, and gear appropriate for a ECL24 PC...;)
sciguy98 03-09-07, 10:39 AM	There's a table in PHB2 that specifically addresses the starting gold (more like gear value) of an NPC. It only goes up to level 20, but an extrapolation could be easily made. Once you have the lich's gear sorted, remove the excess gold and determine his treasure value. Subtract the cost of the gear from this value. This is the new value of the treasure he would have. Choose coin, goods, items as appropriate treasure.
Matthew77 03-09-07, 11:01 AM	It has always puzzled me how the NPC wealth guidelines and the treasure for EL guidelines have a vast gap between them. If an NPC is CR X and is supposed to have 220,000 gp is gear, then how come the recommended treasure for defeating him is supposed to be only 80,000gp worth, what the heck happens to the other 140,000? Is that the cost of him hiring minions and building a stronghold? Is is supposed to be all one-shot magical items that he uses up fighting the party? To the OP: just remember that everything the BBEG has can eventually be looted by the party.
mvincent 03-09-07, 12:26 PM	Actually, runestar, character wealth is assigned based on ECL, not CR. As such, the 20th-level human lich wizard would have the equipment of a 24th-level character.Nope. From the DMG (page 51), Monsters With Classes: "...first give them equipment. Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equipment. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry..."
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 02:58 PM	Wait, it gets NPC wealth AND treasure? If I understand this correctly, the lich in question here would receive the wealth of a 20th-level NPC, plus standard coins, double goods, and double items for a CR 22 opponent? This means that the lich would come with... 220,000 gp of equipment (NPC wealth) 2 major magic items 2% chance of no coins or 63% chance of 4d8 x 1,000 gp or 35% chance of 4d10 x 100 pp 2% chance of no goods or 36% chance of 2x 4d10 gems or 62% chance of 2x 7d6 art 25% chance of no other magic items or 40% chance of an extra 2x 1d4 medium magic items or 35% chance of an extra 2x 1d3 major magic items
mvincent 03-09-07, 03:04 PM	Wait, it gets NPC wealth AND treasure? If I understand this correctly, the lich in question here would receive the wealth of a 20th-level NPC, plus standard coins, double goods, and double items for a CR 22 opponent?No, it would only have the treasure of the base creature (i.e. without any character levels) when adding to NPC gear. Alternately, you could skip the NPC gear and simply give out treasure based on the lich's CR. Now, if you were making a lich PC, the starting gear would be based on the ECL total.
Cantankerous 03-09-07, 03:12 PM	It actually gives some boss type monsters a bit more of an edge...which helps in a small way to make up for the fact that they have so much less in portable wealth in gear than a player character of equal level. A 20th level NPC Wizard has 220,000GP worth of gear while that's about the same as a PC of 5 levels lower is expected to have and considerably less than one third of what a PC of 20th level is expected to have. All in all it works out quite ok in my experience. Take a Nymph, she has a pretty good chance of throwing in three completely random (there is part of the saving grace here) minor items on top of whatever she's getting from any character classes thrown in, usually acheived there by the adding of a template to change her type to one that allows advancement by classes or by house ruling. If she's got 8 levels of Monk thrown in too (I used this particular combo once, damned dicey it was too) she gets her gear as an 8th level NPC plus whatever items (if any) that might be from her "hoard". It made this "Protectress of the Deeping Glades" a bit more of a challenge and turned what might have been a fluff encounter for the 10th level party into something more memorable. The back story for how a usually CG member of the Fey race becomes a Monk was a blast too. Isshia
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 03:22 PM	No, it would only have the treasure of the base creature (i.e. without any character levels) when adding to NPC gear. Where is this stated? Page 51 indicates that you build its treasure according to its monster entry and the treasure building rules, which are based on the encounter's level. Basically, this means that you generate treasure for the encounter one on side (based on the EL; given a 20th-level lich, we're talking about at least EL 22), and then you resolve individual wealth for monsters with class levels. There's evidence of this on page 55, under NPCs with Treasure.
Cantankerous 03-09-07, 03:34 PM	Where is this stated? Page 51 indicates that you build its treasure according to its monster entry and the treasure building rules, which are based on the encounter's level. Basically, this means that you generate treasure for the encounter one on side (based on the EL; given a 20th-level lich, we're talking about at least EL 22), and then you resolve individual wealth for monsters with class levels. There's evidence of this on page 55, under NPCs with Treasure. Under the section "Monsters with Classes" on page 51 of the DMG 3.5. Isshia
mvincent 03-09-07, 04:36 PM	Where is this stated? This topic has been conclusively discussed before (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10770533) and here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3167993)).
Marcus Majarra 03-10-07, 04:52 PM	I've just read through both threads, and I don't see how this was discussed conclusively. It's mostly a matter of the Monster Manual vs. the Dungeon Master Guide, but I'd see the DMG as being more appropriate, since it boasts a far greater amount of information concerning encounters and rewards (as well as NPCs, for that matter). The only dubious statement is:"Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry." While I understand how this could be interpreted as resolving treasure according to the printed monster CR in the MM, the only treasure information the monster entry provides is on the ratio of coins/art/magic items the monster rewards you with. This is logical too, since treasure isn't calculated based on each monster; it's calculated based on the entire encounter.