Question on Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question on Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zarron
08-07-07, 12:25 PM I'm pretty sure the following doesn't work, but I wanted to be sure.

Improved Bull Rush gives you a +4 on your opposed Strength check when bull rushing.

Driving Attack substitutes your damage roll for your Strength check in the bull rush you make after a successful full round attack.

I assume because of this change, Improved Bull Rush doesn't give you a +4 bonus (since it is no longer an opposed Strength check). That's how I rule it; am I wrong?
Zealot
08-07-07, 02:01 PM I don't have the feat in front of me so I have to base this on what you posted, but it probably works. It sounds like you sub. the result of the dmg for the result of the Str. check. Regardless of anything else, you are still making an Opposed Strengh Check.
TheKingOfAmn
08-07-07, 03:14 PM I don't have the feat in front of me so I have to base this on what you posted, but it probably works. It sounds like you sub. the result of the dmg for the result of the Str. check. Regardless of anything else, you are still making an Opposed Strengh Check.

Here here.
Marcus Majarra
08-08-07, 01:26 AM The problem here lies in reading Driving Attack incorrectly. When you use the feat, you do not substitute your Strength check with your damage roll. What you substitute is the Str modifier you would normally be entitled to on the opposed check with your total bonus to damage rolls with the weapon you're using.

Here's an example:

Bob, the 14th-level fighter, has a Str score of 22 and is fighting with a +3 longspear, a piercing weapon for which he has taken Greater Weapon Specialization. Seeing as he has Driving Attack, he has Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing) as well. He also took Improved Bull Rush and, by extension, Power Attack. When he attacks with his longspear, he always opts to take a -3 penalty on attack rolls to gain a +6 bonus to damage when using Power Attack on his longspear attacks. This is both reasonable and well within the limits of your typical 14th-level fighter.

Under normal circumstances, when making bull rush attempts, he would have to make an opposed Str check, to which he adds +6 for his Str and +4 for Improved Bull Rush (he rolls 1d20+10). Now, if he were to make the special bull rush through Driving Attack, he would add his total bonus to damage with his longspear to the opposed Str check instead of his Str modifier. What you need to ask yourself is: how much bonus damage is he getting? Let's look at this:

Str 22 and two-handed weapon: +9
Weapon Specialization: +2
Greater Weapon Specialization: +2
Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing): +2
+3 enhancement on his longspear: +3
Power Attack with a two-handed weapon with a -3 penalty on the attack: +6

Thus, the total bonus on damage he enjoys is +24. This is what replaces his Str mod when making the opposed Str check. Improved Bull Rush still applies. Thus, instead of rolling 1d20+10 as with a normal bull rush, he now rolls 1d20+28 when using Driving Attack.
Zerchai
08-08-07, 01:54 PM I agree with you on all but one point, Marcus; using power attack is an attack option you can use when making an attack that deals damage, and requires an attack roll to activate. Making a bull rush, while an attack action, does not require an attack roll. Even if the proposed character always used power attack for 3 on his regular melee attacks, it wouldn't carry over to an attack action that doesn't require an attack roll; using power attack is an option, not a requirement. I *could* see being able to use power attack as part of initiating a grapple, since the grapple both requires an attack roll, and deals damage when successful. Applying the benefits of improved bull rush to driving attack, however, seems entirely reasonable.
Marcus Majarra
08-08-07, 04:11 PM I agree with you on all but one point, Marcus; using power attack is an attack option you can use when making an attack that deals damage, and requires an attack roll to activate. Making a bull rush, while an attack action, does not require an attack roll. Even if the proposed character always used power attack for 3 on his regular melee attacks, it wouldn't carry over to an attack action that doesn't require an attack roll; using power attack is an option, not a requirement. I *could* see being able to use power attack as part of initiating a grapple, since the grapple both requires an attack roll, and deals damage when successful. Applying the benefits of improved bull rush to driving attack, however, seems entirely reasonable.
Disagree as you might, you do not have to attack when you use Power Attack. Nothing in the feat's description indicates that you actually need to declare any sort of attack. Combat Expertise, however, works as you describe.
DrMorganes
08-08-07, 04:51 PM Look again:

Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Power Attack would not apply to a normal Bull Rush. I'd need to see the exact wording of Driving Attack, but for the moment I'd say you can use Power Attack with Driving Attack.
Marcus Majarra
08-08-07, 06:54 PM Here's the main part of benefit entry for Driving Attack:

If you use a full-round action to make a single melee attack with any piercing weapon and succeed in hitting, you can initiate a special bull rush attempt against the target. This bull rush uses your total bonus on damage rolls in place of your Strength modifier. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity with this bull rush, and you cannot move forward with your opponent.
Zerchai
08-08-07, 10:10 PM Ah, my mistake then. Yeah, since you have to make an attack roll, I'd agree that you could apply the bonus to "damage" normally, since you make the decision to activate the feat after successfully striking.
Marcus Majarra
08-09-07, 12:06 PM Ah, my mistake then. Yeah, since you have to make an attack roll, I'd agree that you could apply the bonus to "damage" normally, since you make the decision to activate the feat after successfully striking.
Again, this is not true. You do not have to make melee attack rolls to be eligible to Power Attack benefits.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zarron 08-07-07, 12:25 PM	I'm pretty sure the following doesn't work, but I wanted to be sure. Improved Bull Rush gives you a +4 on your opposed Strength check when bull rushing. Driving Attack substitutes your damage roll for your Strength check in the bull rush you make after a successful full round attack. I assume because of this change, Improved Bull Rush doesn't give you a +4 bonus (since it is no longer an opposed Strength check). That's how I rule it; am I wrong?
Zealot 08-07-07, 02:01 PM	I don't have the feat in front of me so I have to base this on what you posted, but it probably works. It sounds like you sub. the result of the dmg for the result of the Str. check. Regardless of anything else, you are still making an Opposed Strengh Check.
TheKingOfAmn 08-07-07, 03:14 PM	I don't have the feat in front of me so I have to base this on what you posted, but it probably works. It sounds like you sub. the result of the dmg for the result of the Str. check. Regardless of anything else, you are still making an Opposed Strengh Check. Here here.
Marcus Majarra 08-08-07, 01:26 AM	The problem here lies in reading Driving Attack incorrectly. When you use the feat, you do not substitute your Strength check with your damage roll. What you substitute is the Str modifier you would normally be entitled to on the opposed check with your total bonus to damage rolls with the weapon you're using. Here's an example: Bob, the 14th-level fighter, has a Str score of 22 and is fighting with a +3 longspear, a piercing weapon for which he has taken Greater Weapon Specialization. Seeing as he has Driving Attack, he has Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing) as well. He also took Improved Bull Rush and, by extension, Power Attack. When he attacks with his longspear, he always opts to take a -3 penalty on attack rolls to gain a +6 bonus to damage when using Power Attack on his longspear attacks. This is both reasonable and well within the limits of your typical 14th-level fighter. Under normal circumstances, when making bull rush attempts, he would have to make an opposed Str check, to which he adds +6 for his Str and +4 for Improved Bull Rush (he rolls 1d20+10). Now, if he were to make the special bull rush through Driving Attack, he would add his total bonus to damage with his longspear to the opposed Str check instead of his Str modifier. What you need to ask yourself is: how much bonus damage is he getting? Let's look at this: Str 22 and two-handed weapon: +9 Weapon Specialization: +2 Greater Weapon Specialization: +2 Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing): +2 +3 enhancement on his longspear: +3 Power Attack with a two-handed weapon with a -3 penalty on the attack: +6 Thus, the total bonus on damage he enjoys is +24. This is what replaces his Str mod when making the opposed Str check. Improved Bull Rush still applies. Thus, instead of rolling 1d20+10 as with a normal bull rush, he now rolls 1d20+28 when using Driving Attack.
Zerchai 08-08-07, 01:54 PM	I agree with you on all but one point, Marcus; using power attack is an attack option you can use when making an attack that deals damage, and requires an attack roll to activate. Making a bull rush, while an attack action, does not require an attack roll. Even if the proposed character always used power attack for 3 on his regular melee attacks, it wouldn't carry over to an attack action that doesn't require an attack roll; using power attack is an option, not a requirement. I could see being able to use power attack as part of initiating a grapple, since the grapple both requires an attack roll, and deals damage when successful. Applying the benefits of improved bull rush to driving attack, however, seems entirely reasonable.
Marcus Majarra 08-08-07, 04:11 PM	I agree with you on all but one point, Marcus; using power attack is an attack option you can use when making an attack that deals damage, and requires an attack roll to activate. Making a bull rush, while an attack action, does not require an attack roll. Even if the proposed character always used power attack for 3 on his regular melee attacks, it wouldn't carry over to an attack action that doesn't require an attack roll; using power attack is an option, not a requirement. I could see being able to use power attack as part of initiating a grapple, since the grapple both requires an attack roll, and deals damage when successful. Applying the benefits of improved bull rush to driving attack, however, seems entirely reasonable. Disagree as you might, you do not have to attack when you use Power Attack. Nothing in the feat's description indicates that you actually need to declare any sort of attack. Combat Expertise, however, works as you describe.
DrMorganes 08-08-07, 04:51 PM	Look again: Benefit On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Power Attack would not apply to a normal Bull Rush. I'd need to see the exact wording of Driving Attack, but for the moment I'd say you can use Power Attack with Driving Attack.
Marcus Majarra 08-08-07, 06:54 PM	Here's the main part of benefit entry for Driving Attack: If you use a full-round action to make a single melee attack with any piercing weapon and succeed in hitting, you can initiate a special bull rush attempt against the target. This bull rush uses your total bonus on damage rolls in place of your Strength modifier. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity with this bull rush, and you cannot move forward with your opponent.
Zerchai 08-08-07, 10:10 PM	Ah, my mistake then. Yeah, since you have to make an attack roll, I'd agree that you could apply the bonus to "damage" normally, since you make the decision to activate the feat after successfully striking.
Marcus Majarra 08-09-07, 12:06 PM	Ah, my mistake then. Yeah, since you have to make an attack roll, I'd agree that you could apply the bonus to "damage" normally, since you make the decision to activate the feat after successfully striking. Again, this is not true. You do not have to make melee attack rolls to be eligible to Power Attack benefits.