| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| KainBathory02-22-07, 11:38 AM | Can a character choose to make any of its attacks a Touch Attack? For example, if I had a 20th level Monk, could I opt not to deal damage with my Flurry of Blows and instead just roll to touch my opponent five times? --Kain |
| WackyOne02-22-07, 11:43 AM | You should ask your DM - it isn't in the rules, but frankly it doesn't look very useful. If you want to only intimidate them, you can strike non-lethal damage, that auto-heals quite quickly. But maybr you are talking about the Stormguard Warrior feat, that gives bonuses after you do a round of touch attacks... then yes, you can - it's in the feat text. |
| orionm4202-22-07, 11:47 AM | For example, if I had a 20th level Monk, could I opt not to deal damage with my Flurry of Blows and instead just roll to touch my opponent five times? --Kain What would be the point of touching him five times? If the blow does not have force behind it, it does not do damage. When touch attacks are used for spells, the damage is driven the the spell's effect...not the force of the blow. For fighters, it is the force of the blow that causes harm. |
| KainBathory02-22-07, 11:57 AM | What would be the point of touching him five times? If the blow does not have force behind it, it does not do damage.I've got an idea for a powerful villain to face off against my players. The idea centers around multi-classing a Monk with a Soul Eater from the BoVD in order to get the maximum number of attacks to combine with the Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability (which activates when the Soul Eater touches its target). If the Soul Eater can use Flurry of Blows to deliver touch attacks, then this villain becomes significantly more powerful. --Kain |
| orionm4202-22-07, 12:36 PM | The idea centers around multi-classing a Monk with a Soul Eater from the BoVD in order to get the maximum number of attacks to combine with the Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability (which activates when the Soul Eater touches its target). I don’t own the BoVD, but I know of nothing in the rules that would prevent you from doing this. Note, however, that I would not allow any hit point damage on the touch attack...the attack would result in energy drain only. Also, I don't believe this would make the creature "significantly more powerful." If you throw one level of monk in just to gain the ability...yes, you can make one extra attack. But you take a penalty on all attack rolls. Also, save DCs for this ability are based on racial hit dice. Adding more levels in monk to improve your chance to hit will mean you would have sacrificed racial hit dice. That means the save DC to resist the effect once you touch the target will be easier. It is clearly a trade off, and I would say a fair one. |
| mvincent02-22-07, 12:40 PM | Can a character choose to make any of its attacks a Touch Attack?That is not covered by the rules, but I would generally allow it. However, if you allow weapons to do elemental damage (like flaming) without first doing base damage, then you should probably not allow it. |
| orionm4202-22-07, 12:44 PM | I would also say the monk levels are associated. As such, adding a level in monk to gain the ability will increase the CR by 1. Again...that needs to be factored into the trade off, which I still believe is fair. |
| KainBathory02-22-07, 01:18 PM | I don’t own the BoVD, but I know of nothing in the rules that would prevent you from doing this. Note, however, that I would not allow any hit point damage on the touch attack...the attack would result in energy drain only.Yep, that's what I was planning on. No physical damage-- just the touch effect. Also, I don't believe this would make the creature "significantly more powerful." If you throw one level of monk in just to gain the ability...yes, you can make one extra attack. But you take a penalty on all attack rolls.Actually, I was planning on a build of Monk 11/Soul Eater 9, which would give the villain two extra attacks at full BAB without penalty. Also, save DCs for this ability are based on racial hit dice. Adding more levels in monk to improve your chance to hit will mean you would have sacrificed racial hit dice. That means the save DC to resist the effect once you touch the target will be easier. It is clearly a trade off, and I would say a fair one.Actually, the only save involved is the Fort save 24 hours after the negative levels are bestowed. That save, as far as I know, is based on total Hit Dice, not just racial. There is no save to resist the Soul Eater's initial Energy Drain. All that is required is a touch. --Kain |
| orionm4202-22-07, 02:01 PM | That save, as far as I know, is based on total Hit Dice, not just racial. --Kain If you are correct, it functions atypically... Energy Drain (Su): This attack saps a living opponent’s vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. An affected opponent takes a –1 penalty on all skill checks and ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws, and loses one effective level or Hit Die (whenever level is used in a die roll or calculation) for each negative level. A spellcaster loses one spell slot of the highest level of spells she can cast and (if applicable) one prepared spell of that level; this loss persists until the negative level is removed. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level. If the BoVD is silent on the issue, I would use the standard rules. By giving the character 11 levels of monk, you are giving up 5 on the save DC. It might be worth the trade off. In any event, you are talking about a CR near 20 (I don't know the CR of a stock soul eater)...so the PCs won't have any trouble removing the negative levels through greater restoration. It will also be fairly easy to stay out of melee range to begin with. |
| KainBathory02-22-07, 03:05 PM | If you are correct, it functions atypically...Ahhhh, I see. I had been looking at the definition for Negative Levels which reads slightly differently: "After 24 hours, the afflicted creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker's HD + attacker's Cha modifier)" If the BoVD is silent on the issue, I would use the standard rules. By giving the character 11 levels of monk, you are giving up 5 on the save DC. It might be worth the trade off. In any event, you are talking about a CR near 20 (I don't know the CR of a stock soul eater)...so the PCs won't have any trouble removing the negative levels through greater restoration. It will also be fairly easy to stay out of melee range to begin with.Ahhh, here's where part of the confusion arises. Soul Eater is a Prestige Class, not a creature. But, yes, he'd be about CR 20. He's certainly got a number of weaknesses, but my players have distinct tendency towards melee characters (especially since the Tome of Battle was released), so I figured this might be a fun build to toss at them. --Kain |
| orionm4202-22-07, 03:15 PM | Soul Eater is a Prestige Class, not a creature. Sorry... I did not know it was a prestige class. :) Sounds pretty cool though...and it got me thinking a little more about class combinations using creatures which inflict diseases or drains with stikes. I just may use the idea to throw something unique at my PCs next time around...:plotting: |
| Marcus Majarra02-22-07, 03:57 PM | The Energy Drain ability is a supernatural ability and requires a standard action to use, unless otherwise mentioned. A touch attack is not an action, merely a means to deliver the negative levels. |
| KainBathory02-22-07, 04:30 PM | The Energy Drain ability is a supernatural ability and requires a standard action to use, unless otherwise mentioned. A touch attack is not an action, merely a means to deliver the negative levels.I know we began this discussion over on the CO boards, but I'm willing to continue it here, if you'd like. The SRD for a Vampire's Energy Drain ability reads: Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.This is extremely similar to the Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability. The only differences are that the Soul Eater's ability is triggered by touch, whereas a Vampire's is triggered by a hit with a natural weapon; and that a Vampire's has a limitation of one-per-round, whereas the Soul Eater's does not. Are we, therefore, to assume that the Vampire's Energy Drain is a standard action? A slam attack is not an action, either. So does that mean it takes two rounds in order to initiate the Energy Drain? One in which you hit the opponent with the slam attack, and one in which you initiate the standard action for Energy Drain (since the Energy Drain ability makes no provisions for providing its own attack). I'm not sure about you, but I don't know anyone who's played that way. Now, let's extend this further. All the rest of the class features of the Soul Eater are supernatural abilities, as well. Are you trying to say that each and every one of these requires its own standard action? That pretty much makes them impossible to use, if that's the case, since they each can only be done when the Soul Eater uses its Energy Drain ability, and you can only make a single standard action per round. I think it's pretty clear that a when-a-certain-situation-occurs type of trigger constitutes use of the "unless noted otherwise" clause from the glossary entry for supernatural abilities. EDIT: For further evidence to support my claim, look to the Sample Elite Vampire entry on page 251 of the Monster Manual. Under the Full-Attack section, the damage for the Vampire's flurry-of-blows aided Unarmed Strike is (1d10+5 plus energy drain). This clearly supports the fact that Energy Drain can indeed be used during a full attack action. --Kain |
| Some_call_me_Tim02-22-07, 09:55 PM | Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Are we, therefore, to assume that the Vampire's Energy Drain is a standard action? No, because it specifically lists what kind of action it is. A slam attack is not an action, either. It's an attack, which can be a standard action by itself or be part of full-round actions, such as full attack and charge. I think it's pretty clear that a when-a-certain-situation-occurs type of trigger constitutes use of the "unless noted otherwise" clause from the glossary entry for supernatural abilities.You'll get no argument from me about that. I just think the whole class is poorly written. I think "the touch" is supposed to be flavor, otherwise the correct choice of words should have been "touch attack," or in better keeping with the intent of prestige class "natural attack." If I was presented with such a creature/PC that is the way I would rule--natural attack, not just a touch attack. EDIT: For further evidence to support my claim, look to the Sample Elite Vampire entry on page 251 of the Monster Manual. Under the Full-Attack section, the damage for the Vampire's flurry-of-blows aided Unarmed Strike is (1d10+5 plus energy drain). This clearly supports the fact that Energy Drain can indeed be used during a full attack action.I have no problem with full attack, however, the FAQ has a different take on flurry than the MM and specifically states you can't flurry in such a case. (Call it a correction or a mistake as you will). |
| Marcus Majarra02-23-07, 12:34 AM | This is extremely similar to the Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability. The only differences are that the Soul Eater's ability is triggered by touch, whereas a Vampire's is triggered by a hit with a natural weapon; and that a Vampire's has a limitation of one-per-round, whereas the Soul Eater's does not. Are we, therefore, to assume that the Vampire's Energy Drain is a standard action? A slam attack is not an action, either. So does that mean it takes two rounds in order to initiate the Energy Drain? The Vampire's energy drain attack is not a standard action, because it's explicitly stated that the energy drain is delivered by the vampire's slam or any natural weapon it possesses. The negative levels are bestowed as part of attacking with its natural weapons. Now, let's extend this further. All the rest of the class features of the Soul Eater are supernatural abilities, as well. Are you trying to say that each and every one of these requires its own standard action? That pretty much makes them impossible to use, if that's the case, since they each can only be done when the Soul Eater uses its Energy Drain ability, and you can only make a single standard action per round. You're generalizing something that explicitly requires no generalization. For most of the supernatural abilities of the Soul Eater, it's explicitly stated that they come into effect when the Soul Eater uses its energy drain ability. In fact, there are only two other class abilities that do not specify what kind of an action it takes to perform them: Soul Blast and Soul Radiance. As such, these abilities require standard actions to use as well. I think it's pretty clear that a when-a-certain-situation-occurs type of trigger constitutes use of the "unless noted otherwise" clause from the glossary entry for supernatural abilities. Except that the trigger you're implying is not an action; it's merely a means of delivery. Thus, a standard action, the Soul Eater can bestow negative levels with a melee touch attack. EDIT: For further evidence to support my claim, look to the Sample Elite Vampire entry on page 251 of the Monster Manual. Under the Full-Attack section, the damage for the Vampire's flurry-of-blows aided Unarmed Strike is (1d10+5 plus energy drain). This clearly supports the fact that Energy Drain can indeed be used during a full attack action. The vampire's energy drain applies whenever the vampire attacks with a slam or other natural weapon. A monk's unarmed strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. This is why the vampire monk adds energy drain when performing a flurry of blows with unarmed strikes. You should notice as well that the sample 5th-level human vampire fighter doesn't bestow energy drain with his spiked chain attacks. |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 01:49 AM | I have no problem with full attack, however, the FAQ has a different take on flurry than the MM and specifically states you can't flurry in such a case. (Call it a correction or a mistake as you will).Where does the FAQ say this? I can't find any entries in the FAQ which specifically restrict Energy Drain from use with Flurry of Blows. The Vampire's energy drain attack is not a standard action, because it's explicitly stated that the energy drain is delivered by the vampire's slam or any natural weapon it possesses. The negative levels are bestowed as part of attacking with its natural weapons....just as the energy drain of a Soul Eater is bestowed by a touch. I fail to see any difference here. Both entries give specific mentions of when the Energy Drain occurs. You're generalizing something that explicitly requires no generalization. For most of the supernatural abilities of the Soul Eater, it's explicitly stated that they come into effect when the Soul Eater uses its energy drain ability. In fact, there are only two other class abilities that do not specify what kind of an action it takes to perform them: Soul Blast and Soul Radiance. As such, these abilities require standard actions to use as well.Actually, Soul Blast has the exact same language to define when it is used as all the other Soul Eater abilities. Every single one of them, except Soul Radiance, Soul Slave, and Soul Power, reads: "When an X-level soul eater uses its energy drain ability..." The other three abilities use slightly different language, though with the same intent. Not a single ability in this Prestige Class lists its required action any more explicitly than Energy Drain does. Except that the trigger you're implying is not an action; it's merely a means of delivery. Thus, a standard action, the Soul Eater can bestow negative levels with a melee touch attack.Again, a slam attack or a natural weapon attack is not an action, either. Nowhere does a Vampire's Energy Drain description explicitly define that the ability can be activated without a Standard Action. The nature of the language is exactly the same for the Soul Eater's Energy Drain, and the aforementioned Monster Manual entry clearly indicates that defining the means of delivery is enough to constitute the "unless noted otherwise" clause of the glossary entry for supernatural abilities. The vampire's energy drain applies whenever the vampire attacks with a slam or other natural weapon. A monk's unarmed strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects. This is why the vampire monk adds energy drain when performing a flurry of blows with unarmed strikes. You should notice as well that the sample 5th-level human vampire fighter doesn't bestow energy drain with his spiked chain attacks.I never made any claim that Energy Drain should be coupled with melee weapon damage. The only thing I said was that a Soul Eater's Energy Drain could be coupled with the multiple attacks provided by a full-attack action. --Kain |
| Some_call_me_Tim02-23-07, 12:27 PM | Where does the FAQ say this? I can't find any entries in the FAQ which specifically restrict Energy Drain from use with Flurry of Blows.The related information is on page 13. It doesn't say you can't flurry of blows an energy drain attack, it says you can't flurry with natural weapons, such as slam. Hence, you can't do a flurry of 'slams,' which by extenstion means a vampire can't flurry with energy draining attacks. From the FAQ: When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.Also note that 'touch attack' is missing from that list. One of the key differences between natural weapons and manufactured weapons is "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." Unarmed strike, touch attacks, and flurry of blows don't fit that definition. |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 01:59 PM | The related information is on page 13. It doesn't say you can't flurry of blows an energy drain attack, it says you can't flurry with natural weapons, such as slam. Hence, you can't do a flurry of 'slams,' which by extenstion means a vampire can't flurry with energy draining attacks. From the FAQ: When you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.Also note that 'touch attack' is missing from that list.A Vampire's energy drain is triggered by a hit from any natural weapons the Vamp may have. Unarmed Strike is a natural weapon, and therefore, the energy drain applies. As such, a vampire can, indeed, flurry with energy draining attacks. One of the key differences between natural weapons and manufactured weapons is "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons." Unarmed strike, touch attacks, and flurry of blows don't fit that definition.A touch attack is not a type of weapon, like Unarmed Strike or Slam or Mace. It's a descriptor which explains how the attack roll is resolved, just as 'melee' and 'ranged' are. A weapon doesn't have to be a natural weapon in order to make a Touch Attack-- a good example is the Rod of Withering (DMG, pg 237). There's absolutely no reason why a 6th-level Fighter wielding a Rod of Withering couldn't use his full-attack option to make two Melee Touch Attacks with the weapon. Similarly, I see no reason why a Monk would be unable to make Melee Touch Attacks with his Unarmed Strike while utilizing Flurry of Blows. --Kain |
| Some_call_me_Tim02-23-07, 02:42 PM | A Vampire's energy drain is triggered by a hit from any natural weapons the Vamp may have. Unarmed Strike is a natural weapon, and therefore, the energy drain applies. As such, a vampire can, indeed, flurry with energy draining attacks.That is the point the FAQ is trying to make, unarmed strike is NOT a natural weapon as defined by the rules. natural weapon Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack -- generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. Unarmed strike is not listed as one of the examples. Other than being made with a part of the body, it doesn't fit any parts of the definition. Similarly, I see no reason why a Monk would be unable to make Melee Touch Attacks with his Unarmed Strike while utilizing Flurry of Blows.I see no reason why he should. Unarmed strike has specific rules, nothing allows you to convert it into touch attacks because that is more advantageous to you. You either make a touch attack or unarmed strike but not one as the other. |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 03:25 PM | Unarmed strike is not listed as one of the examples. Other than being made with a part of the body, it doesn't fit any parts of the definition....except that the SRD defines it as such under the description of a Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature: "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Energy Drain is certainly an effect that enhances a natural weapon. Therefore, it is applied to a Vampire Monk's Unarmed Strike. I see no reason why he should. Unarmed strike has specific rules, nothing allows you to convert it into touch attacks because that is more advantageous to you. You either make a touch attack or unarmed strike but not one as the other.Again, a touch attack is not an entirely different weapon than an Unarmed Strike. It's a modification. Referring, again, to the Rod of Withering example above, you don't have to either make a mace attack or a touch attack. If a Fighter smashes his mace into his opponent, that's a Melee Attack. If a Fighter throws his mace at his opponent's head, that's a Ranged Attack. If a Fighter just tries to tap his mace against an opponent, that's a Melee Touch Attack. If a Fighter just lobs his mace at an opponent without intending to damage him, that's a Ranged Touch Attack. There is no "conversion" occurring. When you throw your mace, you are not "converting" a melee attack into a ranged attack. Similarly, when you attempt to touch someone, you are not converting a Melee Attack into a Melee Touch Attack. You're just attempting a Melee Touch Attack. An Unarmed Strike is a weapon. A touch attack is not a weapon. It's a manner in which the weapon is used. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-23-07, 03:26 PM | Some_call_me_Tim, and others, that have denied the Flurry to be combined with Touch Attack are very much correct. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 03:33 PM | Some_call_me_Tim, and others, that have denied the Flurry to be combined with Touch Attack are very much correct.Thanks for the assertion, but none too helpful without Rules to back the argument. Why wouldn't one be able to make a Melee Touch Attack with any Melee Weapon they have during any of their attacks? --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-23-07, 04:27 PM | A touch attack is not a weapon. As per the SRD, Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. This applies to all Touch Attacks - they are all considered to be an armed attack. If they were useable in the way you think, they would be listed on the list of weapons useable as per Flurry of Blows. It is absolutely not allowable as per RAW. If you want to apply it so badly to your monk, it would not be a RAW ruling. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 04:48 PM | As per the SRD, Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. This applies to all Touch Attacks - they are all considered to be an armed attack. If they were useable in the way you think, they would be listed on the list of weapons useable as per Flurry of Blows.Actually, you misread that. Read it again. It does not say "all touch attacks are armed attacks." It says, "touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack." That's a big difference. As such, we can infer that touch attacks relating to things other than touch spells may or may not be considered armed attacks, dependent upon the case. This still doesn't do anything to show that a touch attack is a weapon unto itself, as opposed to a method of usage for a weapon. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-23-07, 04:59 PM | Actually, you misread that. Read it again. It does not say "all touch attacks are armed attacks." It says, "touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack." That's a big difference. As such, we can infer that touch attacks relating to things other than touch spells may or may not be considered armed attacks, dependent upon the case. This still doesn't do anything to show that a touch attack is a weapon unto itself, as opposed to a method of usage for a weapon. --Kain I didn't misread it. I know it said spells. I just don't see how it would operate differently for anything else and looking at the combat sections, I don't see a seperate area for any other type of touch attacks (and there most definitely would be one if they didn't work this way). So, by default they operate the same unless you can find something that disproves it. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 05:13 PM | I didn't misread it. I know it said spells. I just don't see how it would operate differently for anything else and looking at the combat sections, I don't see a seperate area for any other type of touch attacks (and there most definitely would be one if they didn't work this way). So, by default they operate the same unless you can find something that disproves it.That's backwards logic. When the SRD goes out of its way to specifically mention that certain, specific Touch Attacks are considered armed attacks, that in itself implies that there are Touch Attacks which don't behave in this manner. Otherwise, there would have been no need to explicitly state that certain case. They would have simply said, "touching an opponent is considered to be an armed attack," and there would have been no need to include the defining "with a touch spell" clause. There are plenty of Touch Attacks in this game that have absolutely nothing to do with casting a spell. Again, the Rod of Withering is a perfect example of this. There is no Touch Spell being used, here. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-23-07, 05:27 PM | That's backwards logic. When the SRD goes out of its way to specifically mention that certain, specific Touch Attacks are considered armed attacks, that in itself implies that there are Touch Attacks which don't behave in this manner. Otherwise, there would have been no need to explicitly state that certain case. They would have simply said, "touching an opponent is considered to be an armed attack," and there would have been no need to include the defining "with a touch spell" clause. There are plenty of Touch Attacks in this game that have absolutely nothing to do with casting a spell. Again, the Rod of Withering is a perfect example of this. There is no Touch Spell being used, here. --Kain It is hardly backwards logic. Unless something specifically in your monk's build allows him to combine Touch Attacks with Flurry of Blows - and that ability is stated without any sort of ambiguity - you are not allowed to do so. Just because there is nothing to disprove you can't do something, doesn't mean you can. And that is something WotC has said over and over. Now, when I get home and am able to examine the BovD a bit more, I will see if I am wrong - but somehow, I doubt it very much. :dragon: **** |
| Zherog02-23-07, 05:30 PM | There is a specific case where making a touch attack provokes an attack of opportunity - when initiating a trip attack. |
| KainBathory02-23-07, 06:16 PM | It is hardly backwards logic. Unless something specifically in your monk's build allows him to combine Touch Attacks with Flurry of Blows - and that ability is stated without any sort of ambiguity - you are not allowed to do so.So, I suppose we can't combine Melee Attacks or Ranged Attacks with Flurry of Blows, either? Because there's nothing in the build that specifically states you can utilize such attacks. An attack is an attack. Flurry of Blows makes no exceptions as regards the method of delivery. There is absolutely no reason why one could not choose to deliver their attack as a Melee Touch. Just because there is nothing to disprove you can't do something, doesn't mean you can. And that is something WotC has said over and over.However, it does mean that the desired situation is questionable. Which is why one comes to the Rules Forums. Bouncing questions off of other players is the easiest way to find holes in your own argument, or to inspire yourself to do the research necessary to prove your case. The more I look, the more apparent it becomes that Touch Attacks are not solely reserved for Spells. However, it is exceedingly rare to use them for anything else, which-- combined with their utter uselessness without any special rules-- seems to be the prevailing reasons why people think it can't be done. However, there is nothing in the rules to prevent it, and there are other situations in the rules which are similar and seem to support the idea. There is a specific case where making a touch attack provokes an attack of opportunity - when initiating a trip attack.Wonderful! Thank you for pointing this entry out! This clearly shows that a character can make Unarmed Melee Touch Attacks. From the SRD: "Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks." This is an explicit example of what I've been describing. Touch Attacks are a method of delivery for a weapon, they are not a weapon unto themselves. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-23-07, 06:44 PM | Wonderful! Thank you for pointing this entry out! This clearly shows that a character can make Unarmed Melee Touch Attacks. No. It shows - clearly - how a specific melee touch attack (Trip Attack) operates. If your melee Touch Attack (which is some specific type from the BovD) that you are wanting to combine with Flurry of Blows has specific and clear cut methods for how it operates, then use those - if it doesn't, then it must abide by the standard. :dragon: **** |
| PenderGrass02-23-07, 06:49 PM | So, I suppose we can't combine Melee Attacks or Ranged Attacks with Flurry of Blows, either? Because there's nothing in the build that specifically states you can utilize such attacks. Actually, there are specifics that do allow Melee Attacks or Ranged Attacks - "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)." With the inclusion of what can be used - both melee and ranged weapons listed - a character is given the ability of both melee and ranged attacks. Whether your specific Touch Attack from BovD is allowable to be combined in the manner which you are proposing is the issue. :dragon: **** |
| TheDarkLord02-23-07, 06:53 PM | I could have sworn somewhere in the spells section that if you used a Touch attack spell it could be used in conjunction with an unarmed strike so you would get both the Damage for the Unarmed strike and the effect of the spell. Edit: Here we go. Holding the Charge If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. |
| PenderGrass02-24-07, 03:05 AM | Since the Soul Eater's Energy Drain is a supernatural ability and has no specific text to indicate that it should operate outside the norm, it abides by the rules for Using Special Abilities. PHB, page 142, v3.5: "Using a supernatural ability (such as a cleric's turn or rebuke undead ability) is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description)." It is not defined otherwise. Using it is a standard action. Can it be activated and the charge be held as per a spell? I don't see any reason to not allow that to be a choice. Once the charge is held, can a Soul-Eating Monk use Flurry of Blows to bestow multiple uses of it? Each touch becoming an Energy Draining blow? No. Once discharged, it must be reactivated as per the text of the spell and as per the rules of Supernatural Abilities. :dragon: **** |
| Merestil Haye02-24-07, 11:23 AM | Having read the ability, I find it to be a Supernatural ability that delivers an Energy Drain effect by touch. It is not something that automatically kicks in when the Soul Eater makes a touch attack, neither is it something that can be done more than once per round. You cannot Flurry and deliver multiple energy drains, sorry. I would allow a character to "hold the charge" and flurry in the next round. The first attack that hits (in this case hits a target's touch AC) discharges the effect (and the target takes a negative level). |
| KainBathory02-25-07, 12:59 PM | It is not defined otherwise.It is defined otherwise, in the same manner as a Vampire's Energy Drain is defined otherwise, and in the same manner as all the rest of the Soul Eater's supernatural abilities are defined otherwise. None of these abilities explicitly state that they require an action other than a standard action. However, they all do define that they occur when a specific situation is met. And, again, we know that the Vampire's Energy Drain ability combines with Flurry of Blows. So should that of a Soul Eater. Having read the ability, I find it to be a Supernatural ability that delivers an Energy Drain effect by touch.Yes. By touch. Not by its own distinct touch attack, mind you, but by touch. Supernatural abilities which incorporate their own distinct attacks always have language akin to "make a touch attack" or "make a ranged touch attack." That language was blatantly and deliberately omitted from the ability's text. The ability triggers when the Soul Eater touches its target, just as a Vampire's Energy Drain triggers when it hits its target with a natural weapon. Both Energy Drains define specific situations in which they occur. Neither Energy Drain explicitly defines a type of action other than standard. However, since we know that a Vampire's Energy Drain does NOT require a standard action, and since its language is largely similar to that of the Soul Eater's, we can see that the latter's Energy Drain does not require a standard action, either. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-26-07, 03:02 AM | Sorry, totally neglecting the entire RAW in regards to supernatural abilities and using your example of a vampire build that totally neglects the actual template rules (a vampire's energy drain is useable once per round) - doesn't lend any more credence to what you are saying. The vampire template states quite clearly that the energy drain is an ability that happens once per round - at most. Since the build in the MM conflicts with the original template, the template wins the deciding factor. Vampires gain a single energy drain per round. Your BovD prestige class, gains a single energy drain per round. End of RAW. If you wish to modify that, so be it, but it isn't RAW. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-26-07, 09:22 AM | Sorry, totally neglecting the entire RAW in regards to supernatural abilities and using your example of a vampire build that totally neglects the actual template rules (a vampire's energy drain is useable once per round) - doesn't lend any more credence to what you are saying. The vampire template states quite clearly that the energy drain is an ability that happens once per round - at most. Since the build in the MM conflicts with the original template, the template wins the deciding factor. Vampires gain a single energy drain per round. Your BovD prestige class, gains a single energy drain per round. End of RAW. If you wish to modify that, so be it, but it isn't RAW.At no point have I ever asserted that the Vampire's Energy Drain could come into effect more than once per round. In fact, I specifically mentioned that as being one of the only two differences between a Vampire's Energy Drain and a Soul Eater's Energy Drain. That doesn't mean it cannot be combined with Flurry of Blows, however. If the Vampire flurries with Unarmed Strike and misses his first attack, but hits his second and third, the Energy Drain comes into effect on the second hit-- then, since it can only be used once per round, the third hit would not have any further Energy Drain effects. The Vampire's Energy Drain is not tied to any single attack. Unlike a Touch Spell, which discharges if you miss your touch attack, the Energy Drain is a constant modification of the Vampire's natural weapons. If it misses its Unarmed Strikes, but connects with a Bite or a Slam or a Claw or any other natural weapon attack, that Energy Drain will occur, because the description of the ability specifically states that Energy Drain occurs upon any hit with a natural weapon, once per round. Similarly, the Soul Eater's ability states that it occurs when the Soul Eater touches a target. It does not say, "make a touch attack," and it does not say, "once per round." It says that the touch of a Soul Eater confers negative levels. A Vampire's Damage Reduction is also a Supernatural ability, and it does not note any action other than standard in its description. Would you, therefore, argue that the Vampire has to make a standard action in order to receive its DR? No, of course not. The fact that the ability's description does not include the phrase "move action," "full-round action," "swift action," "immediate action," or "free action" does not preclude that ability from still qualifying for the "unless noted otherwise" clause found in the definition of a Supernatural ability. You'll notice it does not say, "unless noted to be a different sort of action." It says, "unless noted otherwise." Energy Drain is NOT an action unto itself, just like Damage Reduction is not an action. Both are noted as working in a specific manner within their text, and neither requires a standard action. --Kain |
| Some_call_me_Tim02-26-07, 02:56 PM | However, it does mean that the desired situation is questionable. Which is why one comes to the Rules Forums. Bouncing questions off of other players is the easiest way to find holes in your own argument, or to inspire yourself to do the research necessary to prove your case.Yes, but it seems to me at least, that you are unwilling to alter your original conclusion despite numerous posts against it. It seems you wish to make a monster based on a questionable ruling. We can't stop you. Don't expect everyone here to 'rubber stamp' your idea either. As a player I wouldn't want a DM to give me a challenge based on a 'cheesy' ruling and call it fair. That language was blatantly and deliberately omitted from the ability's text.You know for a fact that it was deliberately omitted? How? Did you talk to the authors? I've maintained all along that it is poorly worded. The term 'touch' is too vague. It could be a simple melee touch attack, or a successful attack with a natural weapon and/or unarmed strike. Heck, it could be argued that anyone using natural weapons or unarmed strike against a soul eater could be subject to the effects. Touch could even be applied to armed touch attacks or even ranged touch attacks depending on how liberal you want to be with the reading. Since touch is not a well defined game term best not to base an entire build on it. The Vampire's Energy Drain is not tied to any single attack. Unlike a Touch Spell, which discharges if you miss your touch attack...Actually, spells don't discharge either. |
| KainBathory02-26-07, 03:45 PM | Yes, but it seems to me at least, that you are unwilling to alter your original conclusion despite numerous posts against it.That's the nature of debate, though. When two contrary positions are offered, each provides evidence of its case in order to support its supposition. If I were to just back down off of my initial claim without conclusive proof to the contrary, I wouldn't be a very good persuasive speaker. You know for a fact that it was deliberately omitted? How? Did you talk to the authors?I don't know this for a fact, admittedly. I am proposing that it was done deliberately for two main reasons. Firstly, because most-- if not all-- other abilities which require their own, distinct attack clearly define such in their text through the use of language like "make a touch attack." Secondly, since there do exist other abilities in D&D with the exact same name and similar text, like the Vampire's Energy Drain, it seems a fair assumption to apply similar interpretation to the text in question. I've maintained all along that it is poorly worded. The term 'touch' is too vague. It could be a simple melee touch attack, or a successful attack with a natural weapon and/or unarmed strike. Heck, it could be argued that anyone using natural weapons or unarmed strike against a soul eater could be subject to the effects. Touch could even be applied to armed touch attacks or even ranged touch attacks depending on how liberal you want to be with the reading. Since touch is not a well defined game term best not to base an entire build on it.I certainly agree, there. I definitely would have preferred the class use much clearer terminology in defining the ability. Just as you mentioned, natural weapon attacks against the Soul Eater come into question. A similar situation which has come to mind deals with Grappling-- how would one resolve constant contact with the Soul Eater? There are definitely some huge holes in the logic of the text; unfortunately, that is apt to occur when a rule in question uses language without clear definition. Actually, spells don't discharge either.Ahhh, my mistake. Thanks! --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-26-07, 04:04 PM | At no point have I ever asserted that the Vampire's Energy Drain could come into effect more than once per round. My mistake then, I was under the impression that you were trying to allow your monk/soul-drinker guy a flurry of energy-draining touch attacks (thereby, potentially, having the energy drain happen more than once per round). :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-26-07, 04:17 PM | My mistake then, I was under the impression that you were trying to allow your monk/soul-drinker guy a flurry of energy-draining touch attacks (thereby, potentially, having the energy drain happen more than once per round).No worries, it's the multiple different versions of Energy Drain which are causing the confusion here, I think. Yes, I am arguing for a Monk/Soul Eater to be able to make a Flurry of Energy Draining attacks. I know a Vampire Monk cannot do this, since its Energy Drain ability specifically limits use to once per round. However, the Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability has no such limitation. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-26-07, 04:34 PM | However, the Soul Eater's Energy Drain ability has no such limitation. It does have that limitation. You may be able to twist the text to fit what you want, but, overall it isn’t really supported by RAW. As far why you should not be doing this from the perspective of a reasonable DM: As a DM you should be looking at the balance of allowing this to happen. To do so would allow a minimum-qualified Soul Eater to surpass a higher CR vampire in power. Proof that this decision of yours would be unbalancing is very obvious. Sure, you may be able to get the one-up on your players from doing this – but should you be surprised when, after they’re done rolling up new characters, that you have a bunch of 5th level fighters looking to get Soul Eater as their 6th level? Again, you may be able to twist the wording to fit your needs, but, really, is it worth it? Wouldn’t it be better to take the RAW at its spirit and stop trying to fit a circular peg into a square hole? You are the DM, after all, your players look to you to make fair rulings when ambiguous text comes up in the game. In my opinion, if you stick to your questionable guns on this, you are really not being a DM more than you are just being a jerk to your players. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-26-07, 05:00 PM | It does have that limitation. You may be able to twist the text to fit what you want, but, overall it isn’t really supported by RAW.Really, it doesn't. I'm not lying to you here. Read the entry in the BoVD for a Soul Eater's Energy Drain. If the text were at all clear on the subject, there would be no issue from me. However, the ability is poorly worded and lacks any sort of limitation beyond the "touch" required to trigger it. As far why you should not be doing this from the perspective of a reasonable DM: As a DM you should be looking at the balance of allowing this to happen. To do so would allow a minimum-qualified Soul Eater to surpass a higher CR vampire in power. Proof that this decision of yours would be unbalancing is very obvious.Hardly. We're talking about a minimum of a CR 20 creature, here. That's Tarrasque territory. Take a look at the character for whom I devised this combination. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=796542) I don't know about you, but I really think that a good group of Level 20 PC's shouldn't be horribly overwhelmed by this guy. Good spacing and use of crowd-control type spells will prevent him from being able to make full use of his Flurry of Blows-- and with only 113 HP (until he begins to Energy Drain, of course) and 24 AC, he's really only one good smack away from being Power Word Killed. I could quite easily draw up a CR 20 Vampire that makes little Bodo Weakfist look like any other kobold. He's really not all that imbalanced. Sure, you may be able to get the one-up on your players from doing this – but should you be surprised when, after they’re done rolling up new characters, that you have a bunch of 5th level fighters looking to get Soul Eater as their 6th level? Again, you may be able to twist the wording to fit your needs, but, really, is it worth it? Wouldn’t it be better to take the RAW at its spirit and stop trying to fit a circular peg into a square hole? You are the DM, after all, your players look to you to make fair rulings when ambiguous text comes up in the game. In my opinion, if you stick to your questionable guns on this, you are really not being a DM more than you are just being a jerk to your players.You misunderstand my players. They don't want to face a few Kobold Fighters, or a Drow Sorcerer, or even an Orc Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berzerker 10/Fighter 4. They want to fight something interesting, something odd, something they've never seen in our plethora of previous campaigns. Similarly, when they build a character, I don't expect to see Half-Elf Rangers or Dwarf Fighters. My players love to get as interesting and erratic a build as they can from their characters. To be honest, little Bodo Weakfist is going to be a fun little stepping stone for them, but not a terrifically challenging villain. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-26-07, 05:11 PM | Hardly. We're talking about a minimum of a CR 20 creature, here. No. Overall you are allowing a character with the minimum qualifications for Soul Drinker to gain this ability, too. Granted, your NPC might have more levels - but the ruling has far-reaching consequences beyond just your 20th level monk/soul-drinker dude. That is the point I am trying to get across. You will be setting a precedent for further down the road and that expands outward - all because you twisted the words to fit your need. BUT - It is your game and if you feel the players won't care (or maybe they won't even notice), then go ahead and do so. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-26-07, 06:09 PM | No. Overall you are allowing a character with the minimum qualifications for Soul Drinker to gain this ability, too.First of all, this character is hardly "minimally qualified." By the time he takes the Prestige Class, his BAB and ranks in Knowledge (arcana) are much higher than the PrC requires, and he has twice as many Feats as he would need (and that's disregarding his Monk Bonus Feats). Furthermore, whether he's minimally qualified or not has absolutely no bearing on balance. He is qualified. A Frenzied Berserker that only minimally meets requirements for the PrC is not automatically imbalanced, nor is a Hellfire Warlock, nor is a Dracolyte, nor is any other Prestige Class. Optimization does not imply imbalance, especially when one can assume their players will have optimized characters. Granted, your NPC might have more levels - but the ruling has far-reaching consequences beyond just your 20th level monk/soul-drinker dude. That is the point I am trying to get across. You will be setting a precedent for further down the road and that expands outward - all because you twisted the words to fit your need.Sure, but nothing imbalanced. The requirements for taking on the Soul Eater Prestige Class are rather specific, and are all but forbidden to most low-level creatures and PC races. Even for those non-humanoids that do only minimally meet the statistical requirements, there still is that DM-discretionary Special requirement for the PrC should one decide the combination is too powerful. Regardless, this is hardly a gamebreaking combination. We're not looking at Pun-Pun, here. There are plenty of ways to deal with a character with levels in Soul Eater. BUT - It is your game and if you feel the players won't care (or maybe they won't even notice), then go ahead and do so.It's not a matter of my players not caring, and it certainly isn't a matter of their not noticing. I can assure you my players will care about Bodo Weakfist, and the will notice the oddities of the build. However, where you seem to imply they'd find something distasteful in the build-- or perhaps that they'd themselves want to exploit such a build-- I am perfectly confident that they would simply enjoy having an interesting opponent to fight. --Kain |
| PenderGrass02-26-07, 06:46 PM | I am perfectly confident that they would simply enjoy having an interesting opponent to fight. Then why even bring it up? :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory02-26-07, 06:58 PM | Then why even bring it up?Because as much as my players and I love interesting, erratic builds, we are also consummate rules lawyers. If I'm going to put something out there for them to fight, I want it to be by the rules. After all, I expect my players to abide by the rules-- I should hold myself to the same standards. I posted the initial question regarding touch attacks because I had never come across such a situation, before, and did not know if any specific rules existed regarding the use of touch attacks. I thought I might be able to save some time if someone else on these forums had already researched a similar situation. My initial question had nothing to do with Energy Drain. I've been confident in that situation throughout. --Kain |
| Marcus Majarra02-28-07, 12:15 AM | Let me explain this in another way. A touch (attack) is not an action on its own. It is a means of delivering an effect, but in no way it is an action. Many effects require that you touch your target, including touch spells, grapple attempts, trip attempts, and so on. As you're most likely aware of, these effects only use the melee touch as a mechanic of delivering the effect, but each specifies what kind of action it requires to actually attempt to deliver this effect: 1) Touch spells require that you spend the appropriate casting time action(s). 2) Trip and grapple attempts require that you use one of your melee attacks when they are available to you (such as during a standard attack, a full attack, or an attack of opportunity). Regarding the Soul Eater's energy drain, we have the reference to the touch again: it's the means of delivery. In no way does this hint to the kind of action you need to perform in order to deliver the effect. As such, you have to default to the regular action required to use a supernatural ability: a standard action. This is why, in all likelihood, the Soul Eater will never use the ability more than once per round. This ability is vastly different from the vampire's energy drain ability, which is delivered by a successful natural weapon attack. The fact that the reference to the natural weapon exists implies that the ability takes place whenever the natural attack hits an opponent (and deals damage). It's fair to conclude that a monk can use his flurry of blows to make touch attacks, but these attacks will deal no damage and carry no extra effect. The Soul Eater won't drain energy with these attacks, since he needs to use a standard action to use this ability in the first place. |
| KainBathory02-28-07, 09:14 AM | Let me explain this in another way. A touch (attack) is not an action on its own. It is a means of delivering an effect, but in no way it is an action... Regarding the Soul Eater's energy drain, we have the reference to the touch again: it's the means of delivery. In no way does this hint to the kind of action you need to perform in order to deliver the effect.An attack with a natural weapon is not an action either. It is just as much a means of delivery as a touch. A trigger by attack in no way infers a required action any more than a trigger by touch does. As such, you have to default to the regular action required to use a supernatural ability: a standard action. This is why, in all likelihood, the Soul Eater will never use the ability more than once per round. This ability is vastly different from the vampire's energy drain ability, which is delivered by a successful natural weapon attack. The fact that the reference to the natural weapon exists implies that the ability takes place whenever the natural attack hits an opponent (and deals damage).First of all, dealing damage is not a part of the requirement for a Vampire's Energy Drain. Only the hit is. Secondly, I fail to understand the divide in your logic, here. On the one hand, you're saying that because a Vampire's Energy Drain says that it comes into effect after a hit with a natural weapon, it does not require its own standard action even though the ability does not explicitly state any other required action; but then you turn right around and say that even though the Soul Eater's Energy Drain says that it comes into effect after a touch, it does require its own standard action because it doesn't explicitly state any other required action. --Kain |
| Marcus Majarra03-01-07, 08:05 PM | A few things: 1) Actually, an attack with a natural weapon is simply: an attack. The vampire's energy drain is delivered by attacks with its natural weapons. Any sort of action that involves the vampire making an attack with its natural weapon can also provide energy drain. 2) If damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates any effect that comes along with that attack (unless the effect states otherwise). As such, if damage reduction negates a vampire's attack's damage, so too does it negate the energy drain. This is why the vampire must deal damage with its natural weapon. 3) The vampire's energy drain doesn't require its own standard action, since it's explicitly stated as being activated when the vampire attacks with a natural weapon. A touch is not an attack; it is merely an alternative to the usual way to resolve a melee attack roll. At this point, you have to realize that a melee attack roll is not an action, nor is it an attack on its own. It is merely a mechanic used to resolve an attack. This is why the Soul Eater must use a standard action to use its energy drain: because a touch is not an attack nor an action. As such, you default to the norm for supernatural abilities: a standard action. |
| PenderGrass03-01-07, 11:39 PM | Soul Eater must.... default to the norm for supernatural abilities: a standard action. I believe this has been said in a dozen different ways throughout this thread. KainBathory, seems stuck on using it and calling it RAW. Never the two shall meet. :dragon: **** |
| KainBathory03-02-07, 09:19 AM | 1) Actually, an attack with a natural weapon is simply: an attack. The vampire's energy drain is delivered by attacks with its natural weapons. Any sort of action that involves the vampire making an attack with its natural weapon can also provide energy drain.Similarly, a touch is simply a touch. The Soul Eater's energy drain is delivered by touch. Any sort of action that involves the Soul Eater touching its target can also provide energy drain. There is no difference in the language used between the two abilities. 2) If damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates any effect that comes along with that attack (unless the effect states otherwise). As such, if damage reduction negates a vampire's attack's damage, so too does it negate the energy drain. This is why the vampire must deal damage with its natural weapon.Actually, the DMG, page 292, specifically states that Damage Reduction does not negate Energy Drains. 3) The vampire's energy drain doesn't require its own standard action, since it's explicitly stated as being activated when the vampire attacks with a natural weapon. A touch is not an attack; it is merely an alternative to the usual way to resolve a melee attack roll. At this point, you have to realize that a melee attack roll is not an action, nor is it an attack on its own. It is merely a mechanic used to resolve an attack.I have understood this. In fact, I've been pointing it out quite frequently. The melee attack roll required by a Vampire's Energy Drain is not an action. My question is, how can one possibly justify the hypocrisy in claiming that a Vampire's energy drain does not require a standard action, even though it does not define any other specific required action, while a Soul Eater's energy drain does require a standard action, because it does not define any other specific required action. This is why the Soul Eater must use a standard action to use its energy drain: because a touch is not an attack nor an action. As such, you default to the norm for supernatural abilities: a standard action.You'll note that nowhere does the RAW state that a Supernatural Ability must be either an attack or an action. All it says, on the subject, is that a Supernatural Ability normally requires a standard action, unless noted otherwise. In the case of the Soul Eater's Energy Drain, the ability notes that the energy drain is conferred with a touch-- thus constituting the "unless noted otherwise" clause. I believe this has been said in a dozen different ways throughout this thread. KainBathory, seems stuck on using it and calling it RAW. Never the two shall meet.Just as you seem stuck on denying it and calling it RAW. If the RAW-- specifically, the Soul Eater's Energy Drain entry-- were at all clear on the subject, there would be no argument on my part. Unfortunately, the entry does not clarify this, in any way. It is similar enough to the Vampire's Energy Drain to suggest that my proposed method of combination may have been the intention of the ability; but, at the same time, it is dissimilar enough to cause doubt-- especially when using such unclear language as "the Soul Eater's touch," instead of "make a melee touch attack" or "hits from the Soul Eater's natural weapons." --Kain |
| Merestil Haye03-02-07, 11:56 AM | I have understood this. In fact, I've been pointing it out quite frequently. The melee attack roll required by a Vampire's Energy Drain is not an action. My question is, how can one possibly justify the hypocrisy in claiming that a Vampire's energy drain does not require a standard action, even though it does not define any other specific required action, while a Soul Eater's energy drain does require a standard action, because it does not define any other specific required action.Primarily because, in fact, the Vampire's ability does define the method of activation to be something other than the usual method. You'll note that nowhere does the RAW state that a Supernatural Ability must be either an attack or an action. All it says, on the subject, is that a Supernatural Ability normally requires a standard action, unless noted otherwise. In the case of the Soul Eater's Energy Drain, the ability notes that the energy drain is conferred with a touch-- thus constituting the "unless noted otherwise" clause.That is not specifying otherwise. Here is probably the second best known Energy Drain ability in the Monster Manual.A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim.This is a Supernatural ability that inflicts a negative level. It is delivered by a kiss. Very analagous to the Soul Eater. It is also a standard action that can be used once per round. As is that of the Soul Eater. "Delivered by touch" is telling you the method in which the creature, after activating the ability - which is not specified as any other action and is thus a standard action - delivers the energy drain. It is, in this sense, exactly analagous to a Touch range spell. Those too are delivered by touch, but only after casting them. The vampire's ability can be used after any single successful attack with a natural weapon - if it was a regular supernatural ability it would not need the "use once per round" qualifier because the standard rules impose a once per round limit. The existence of the qualifier shows that the vampire can impose it as a side effect of one of its attacks. |
| KainBathory03-02-07, 12:23 PM | Here is probably the second best known Energy Drain ability in the Monster Manual.This is a Supernatural ability that inflicts a negative level. It is delivered by a kiss. Very analagous to the Soul Eater.I agree, very analagous to the Soul Eater. However, you forgot to include the rest of the Succubus' Energy Drain entry: Energy Drain (Su): A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 21 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.Successfully starting a grapple is all that is necessary for the Succubus' Energy Drain. Not a standard action. As such, if one were to field an advanced Succubus-- say, an 11 HD Succubus, for instance-- they would have three attacks at +11/+6/+1. The Succubus could start a grapple with its first attack, conferring the associated Energy Drain; then, if the opponent makes the suggestion save, the Succubus might decide to Escape the grapple with her second attack; finally, she could use her third attack to once again start a grapple and confer more Energy Drain. Nothing limits her to a single Energy Drain per round. "Delivered by touch" is telling you the method in which the creature, after activating the ability - which is not specified as any other action and is thus a standard action - delivers the energy drain. It is, in this sense, exactly analagous to a Touch range spell. Those too are delivered by touch, but only after casting them.It is in no way "exactly analagous to a Touch range spell." Touch Range spells are much more clearly defined than the Soul Eater's ability-- which is neither a spell, nor even a Spell Like Ability, which would make comparison of their mechanics a rather moot point. Furthermore, the ability does not say, "after activating this ability, the touch of a Soul Eater bestows negative levels." It simply says, "the touch of a Soul Eater bestows negative levels." Just as Damage Reduction-- also a Supernatural Ability-- does not say, "after activating this ability..." and just as a Vampire's and a Succubus's Energy Drains do not say, "after activating this ability..." You are adding text to the rule which is neither explicit nor implicit in its wording. The vampire's ability can be used after any single successful attack with a natural weapon - if it was a regular supernatural ability it would not need the "use once per round" qualifier because the standard rules impose a once per round limit. The existence of the qualifier shows that the vampire can impose it as a side effect of one of its attacks.So can you only use your Damage Reduction once per round, then? After all, there is no explicit limit, DR does not explicitly state any other action than a standard, and it is a Supernatural Ability. Furthermore, can you only use Damage Reduction on your turn? After all, you can't perform a Standard Action unless it's your turn. Obviously, the "unless noted otherwise" clause of the rules for Supernatural Abilities is nowhere near as strict as you are assuming. There needn't be any explicit mention of limits per round or specific actions. As long as the ability is defined as occurring under certain circumstances, the ability does not necessarily require a standard action. --Kain |
| Marcus Majarra03-02-07, 02:48 PM | As such, if one were to field an advanced Succubus-- say, an 11 HD Succubus, for instance-- they would have three attacks at +11/+6/+1. The Succubus could start a grapple with its first attack, conferring the associated Energy Drain; then, if the opponent makes the suggestion save, the Succubus might decide to Escape the grapple with her second attack; finally, she could use her third attack to once again start a grapple and confer more Energy Drain. This is incorrect. The grapple attempt is only there to compensate for an unwilling victim. Nowhere does it state that the kiss is a substitute for an attack while grappling. There's evidence of this in the grapple rules themselves, as making a grapple check is not always associated with making an attack. All that the RAW indicates is that in order to kiss an unwilling victim, it must be grappling the opponent. Again: a touch is not an action nor part of an action, and thus cannot be used as a substitute for another action. |
| KainBathory03-02-07, 04:01 PM | This is incorrect. The grapple attempt is only there to compensate for an unwilling victim. Nowhere does it state that the kiss is a substitute for an attack while grappling. There's evidence of this in the grapple rules themselves, as making a grapple check is not always associated with making an attack. All that the RAW indicates is that in order to kiss an unwilling victim, it must be grappling the opponent.That is absolutely incorrect. It does not say, "in order to kiss an unwilling opponent, the Succubus must already be grappling it." It does, however say: If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level....emphasis added. Starting a grapple is all that is required to bestow the negative level. The Energy Drain is not inextricably linked to an otherwise undefined "kiss." In the event the Succubus cannot perform the necessary roleplaying aspect (that is, kissing) it's Energy Drain can be conferred through combat rules with a grapple. Again: a touch is not an action nor part of an action, and thus cannot be used as a substitute for another action.An attack is neither an action nor part of an action. To say that an ability is linked to an attack does not suggest any specific sort of action, whatsoever. It could be a full-round action, in the case of a full-attack. It could be a standard action, in the instance the character has already moved. It could be an immediate action, in the case of special powers or Tome of Battle Counters. It could be no action at all, in the case of an Attack of Opportunity. --Kain |
| Need_A_Life03-02-07, 04:41 PM | You're off-topic. If you really want to discuss energy drain, why not make a topic dedicated to that, rather than cluttering up a thread with something that (while related to the situation) is irrelevant to the question asked? The topic is: Can a character choose to make any of its attacks a Touch Attack? My opinion on this topic is yes. A monk delivering a touch attack during a flurry of blows would be perfectly able to do so, though it is usually an inferior tactic. |
| SALDAR03-03-07, 05:24 PM | "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." Energy Drain is certainly an effect that enhances a natural weapon. Therefore, it is applied to a Vampire Monk's Unarmed Strike. No, Energy Drain is a supernatural ability that you use against an opponent. It does nothing to enhance you unarmed strikes. |