Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Retinal Haze 03-23-07, 01:41 AM	Hey guys, i need some clarification here. One of my players wants to aquire / make a unique magic item. I want him to have freedom to create and or bargin for unique items, however he wants to make what he calls "glasses of true strike" As he presented it, a use-activated pair of glasses that grant true strike costing 2000gp. spell level(1) x caster level(1)x 2000. Now there is no way in hell ill allow a 2000gp item that gives +20 to all attack rolls. But it seems that the math is correct. He even argued that he could get it for 1200gp if it was 3 times a day (2000/(5/3)). Is there something in the numbers i'm missing? This doesnt seem right.
Nom 03-23-07, 02:01 AM	As is not uncommon, you're missing the part that says "First, compare the item to other items with similar abilities" (see the inset box on "magic item values"). Except for potions, scrolls and wands (which have exact formulas), table 7-33 is a set of rough guidelines for particular effects. Generally, "instantaneous" spells don't play nicely with "unlimited" items.
Leilond 03-23-07, 06:38 AM	It is an OLD debate Consider this: 1) True strike has the range "personal", that means there isn't any way to give that bonus to a non Wizard/Sorcerer except by "use magic device" with a "scroll" or a "wand" (no potion can be created with "personal" range spells). This fact MUST be taken into the price calcuation, because you're creating an item to give a character a spell that there's no way to give him by the rules 2) True strike has duration 1 action (your next attack, pratically less than one round) (look at the price multiplier for the continues items based on short duration spells) Here you are the rule If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. The spell duration isn't measured in rounds, because the duration is "your next action"... I think that it is LESS than "rounds" and for this reasu the price multiplier must go UP 3) The rule for "creating magic items" clearly state that you must use them CAREFULLY and ONLY after a true confrontation with other similar items. The final result is a SUGGESTION but you MUST validate and CORRECT it fitting yor game Considere the conseguence of a such item for a 10th level fighter with "power attack" and a 2 handed sword The fighter can use -10 power attack. The fighter will have a final +10 to hit (because of the +20 true strike and -10 power attack) and +20 to damage (because of the +10 power attack multiplied by 2 for the 2 handed weapon) Most of all tell to your players that EACH item that isn't in the book must be submitted to your FINAL and UNDISCUSSABLE judgement This is an OOOOLD debate
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 08:03 AM	The other trick not mentioned by the others ... First ... look at the effect and examine the magic item pricing guidelines for any cost formulas that duplicate that effect .. (It isn't a coincidence that the charts lists "EFFECTS" first ... and Spells second ... :tiphat: ) Effect = +x to hit Hey look!! Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp That's pretty close .... Ok, you only get the +1 to hit ... so maybe it's not worth as much ... So let's (for the sake of argument) treat it as 1,000 gp base (1/2 as much as the enhancement). So .. a +1 to hit item would be 1^2 * 1,000 gp => 1,000 gp a +2 to hit item would be 2^2 * 1,000 gp => 4,000 gp ... a +10 to hit item would be 10^2 * 1,000 gp => 100,000 gp ... a +20 to hit item would be 20^2 * 1,000 gp => 400,000 gp yep .. that looks more like it .. and as a DM .. I would allow those items ... at those costs ... you want it? Pay up .... :tiphat: Note that he could still create this item, and call it "Glasses of True Strike" .. and you could rightly call for the True Strike to be a Pre-req for creating them .... but use the above bonus / cost calc to get the cost ... ;D
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 08:05 AM	just an example to show why the above method works (ie You need such and such a spell .. but the bonus the item gives is less than what the spell gives) Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets are made of tough leather with iron studs running across the back of the hands and fingers. They grant the wearer great strength, adding a +2 enhancement bonus to his Strength score. Both gauntlets must be worn for the magic to be effective. Faint transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, bull’s strength; Price 4,000 gp;Weight 4 lb. Cheers :tiphat:
ZiggZagg 03-23-07, 08:18 AM	You know, I have watched this debate come up time and time again, and Ditto is the first one to really prove it wrong. I never though of using that formula for a true strike item, but around 400k does sound pretty reasonable for a true strike item :P
Merestil Haye 03-23-07, 12:22 PM	He's still missing a step. Items which grant a bonus of +6 or higher to attack rolls are epic items. As such, the price is multiplied by 10. That is, the price is four million gold pieces.
Retinal Haze 03-23-07, 01:15 PM	Thanks guys, you are pretty much just validating what i told him. In the future ill keep your advice in mind. :)
Neutronium_Dragon 03-23-07, 06:56 PM	I'm sorry to rain on the epic item parade... ... but True Strike Gauntlets exist in the Magic Item Compendium at 3500 GP. ;) The catch is that they're a 1/day item, not something you can activate over and over again. (They also don't give you the ability to ignore concealment, just the +20 attack bonus.)
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 10:05 PM	He's still missing a step. Items which grant a bonus of +6 or higher to attack rolls are epic items. As such, the price is multiplied by 10. That is, the price is four million gold pieces. True .. I don't play epic .. so I tend not to think "Epic" .. I just think: "Hmm, +x ... and the formula is x^2 * blah + blah ... ok ... plug the numbers ... :D I'm sorry to rain on the epic item parade... ... but True Strike Gauntlets exist in the Magic Item Compendium at 3500 GP. ;) The catch is that they're a 1/day item, not something you can activate over and over again. (They also don't give you the ability to ignore concealment, just the +20 attack bonus.) That doesn't say much really ... Complete Adventurer listed a number of Wands of spells with swift action spells and 1 round durations .... yet the rules do not allow for Wands to be activated as a swift action ... hence, the wands in Complete Adventurer are either: a) totally useless ... or b) way underpriced for the added "special ability" of activating as a swift action. (ie boots of speed activate as a free action ... so items *can* be activated quicker - it's just they cost more ... unfortunately no "official" wands yet exist - save for these in Complete Adventurer - and they've clarified they take a standard action ... so I'm thinking (a) - useless ... ) Doesn't give me much faith in other items "just because they're in an official book" ... and item that gives +20 to hit? (epic rules aside) 400,000 k .. base. 1 day? Fine ... 80,000k .... cheers :tiphat:
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 12:26 AM	Blindly following the formulas - despite the fact that they're the *last* approach you should take according to the DMG itself - is the cause of many underpriced items. It's also the cause of many overpriced ones, which is what has been happening here. Even the MIC itself discusses this problem. Sorry, but +20 to one attack, once per day, is by no means worth a blind-formula 80K.
calronmoonflower 03-24-07, 02:41 AM	Instead of adding directly to a weapon, make it as a crystal (like in the Magic Item Compendium usable once per day as a standard action. The crystal should be attached at least 24 hours before it can be used. If he wants it quickened, it would be like a greater version. or you could have him buy potions of True Strike.
Retinal Haze 03-24-07, 03:22 AM	Instead of adding directly to a weapon, make it as a crystal (like in the Magic Item Compendium usable once per day as a standard action. The crystal should be attached at least 24 hours before it can be used. If he wants it quickened, it would be like a greater version. or you could have him buy potions of True Strike. Oh god, this is what started all of this, a player of mine got the magic item compendium, and its the single most broken book ive seen ever. Jesus, now half my players want items for 2k gold that are worth atleast 20k gold. a 2,000gold gauntlet that gives you a free attack at your highest bonus? is that ballanced? how? why would anyone ever use two weapon fighting with such a cheap way out?
calronmoonflower 03-24-07, 04:55 AM	I just ran across that item today reading over the book. Remember it takes a standard action to activate and allot can happen in a round.
Leilond 03-24-07, 06:48 AM	Instead of adding directly to a weapon, make it as a crystal (like in the Magic Item Compendium usable once per day as a standard action. The crystal should be attached at least 24 hours before it can be used. If he wants it quickened, it would be like a greater version. or you could have him buy potions of True Strike. By the RAW you cannot create a potion with spell that have range "personal" That's one reason because "any object of true strike" have to be priced UP a bit, because there are no way by the RAW and EXISTING object to give that bonus to a non-arcane-caster (except "use magic device" + scroll/wand)
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 10:35 AM	Yes, the gauntlets are a standard action to activate, so you're pretty much giving up a round worth of actions (beyond movement) to get one good whack in the next round, and you can only do this once per day. If they were a swift action activation then I could see a higher price being warranted, but they're not. > Oh god, this is what started all of this, a player of mine got the magic item > compendium, and its the single most broken book ive seen ever. Just like how the Mystic Theurge was the most broken class ever? (*Cue the chorus of laughter at that suggestion now that people have seen the MT in play.*) Seriously, before you hit the panic button or start screaming "broken", give the stuff a trial run. Both the design interviews and the MIC talked about the fact that overpricing of magic item costs was a serious problem and that the MIC was setting out to correct that. The simple fact that virtually every item outside of the core group of six types of items was ignored by players in favor of that "core six" is ample proof of that. Now, I can actually see taking some of these cloaks instead of a Cloak of Resistance, and so on.
Marcus Majarra 03-24-07, 01:20 PM	I'm going to disagree with the general trend, and state that the said gauntlets of true strike are priced correctly at 2,000 gp. There's already an item that resembles this idea a lot: the wand of true strike. This wand is priced at a meager 750 gp, and does the exact same thing as the gauntlets proposed: you use a standard action to activate the item to grant your next attack before the end of the next round a +20 insight bonus on the attack roll and negate concealment. The only differences between the wand and the gauntlet are: 1) The wand can only be activated by someone with true strike on their spell list or anyone who can manage a DC 20 Use Magic Device check. 2) The wand is destroyed after being used 50 times. The gauntlet can be used at will. This said, I believe it's not only legal, but fair to allow for these gauntlets at 2,000 gp. They're not going to be very useful, since they take up your standard action, which takes away most of your usefulness in combat.
Retinal Haze 03-24-07, 01:46 PM	Okay perhaps the gauntlets were a bad example. But there are items i see in there that i cant believe are priced how they are, granted i compare their prices to the dmg formulas. But take for example the: "Healing Belt" 750gp caster level3rd +2 competence bonus to heal checks 3charges a day to be expended in any of the following ways: 1charges: 2d8 healing 2charges: 3d8 healing 3charges: 4d8 healing Now i believe its a command word, so when i saw this and thought about the math: 1.5(2^2x100) + (2x3x1800)/(5/3) = 6486gp I was confused. Is my math wrong? did the creators of the item not care about the dmg rules? As a dm i tend to trust WOTC material. But to me it doesnt make sense that a potion of cure moderate wounds would cost 300gp, and 3 would cost 900. Why even bother with that if you could get a belt for 750 that does the same thing, and is recharged every day?
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 04:02 PM	The problem is that you're using that math. The formulas are the *last* thing to refer to when estimating item prices and no other means is available, not the first thing you should be turning to to set them. The DMG itself says this. The problem with the potions is that they're seriously overpriced for the value you get out of them. You can get 50d8+50 from a wand of cure light wounds at 750, so why would you pay 300 for a mere 2d8+3? Cure light wounds potions are a little less cost-inefficient, but not enough so that anyone's going to want them over the wand except as backup for when the wand-wielder goes down. And this is a point that the MIC makes - many of the items in the DMG, which were costed according to the formulas, or simply had arbitrary, high prices assigned, are flat-out overcosted for the benefit you get. Do you want one of those healing belts or one of the wands? The healing belt is infinitely reusable, but if you need more than a few dice of healing in a day the wand is going to serve you much better. A lot of characters (or players) will actually have to stop and think about that one, rather than the no-brainer of wand-over-potion which proclaims very clearly that the potion is badly priced.
Nom 03-25-07, 10:07 AM	I'm going to disagree with the general trend, and state that the said gauntlets of true strike are priced correctly at 2,000 gp.If they were command word, it probably wouldn't be that much of an issue, though I'd still recommend a mark-up for turning a personal spell into a general spell. Trading a standard action for true strike is a dubious trade in many situations. But the OP specified use-activated, which in this context usually means "every time I make an attack".
Neutronium_Dragon 03-25-07, 10:39 AM	The gauntlets in the MIC are indeed command word activated as a standard action, so you're making that dubious tradeoff when you use them. I'd point the player to those gauntlets and leave it at that. As an essentially continuous or use-activated thing which can be used all day, what he's proposing is definitely "problematic".
Marcus Majarra 03-25-07, 06:12 PM	Nom, I never stated that a personal spell would become a general spell. The glasses still only affect the character wearing them, limiting the effect only to the personal range. Use-activated items work for the character when the item is used, which generally entails a standard action (as per chapter 10 of the PHB). There's no way he could benefit from the glasses without using an action to activate them. The glasses could never work as a continuous item, since the magic is subject to being discharged automatically before the duration ends. The essence of what I'm saying is: the glasses cannot provide a continuous bonus on attack rolls by simply emulating true strike. If they emulate true strike, then they're going to work exactly like true strike and require a standard action to use. If they're granting a continous bonus, then we're talking about an item in the 400K+ gp price range.
Leilond 03-26-07, 08:18 AM	Nom, I never stated that a personal spell would become a general spell. The glasses still only affect the character wearing them, limiting the effect only to the personal range. In this way a spell that has "personal" range, that means only caster can use that, become "general", that means everyone can use it There's no way, by the RAW and with normal magic items (those on the DMG) to give the true strike effect to someone that cannot cast it... you're breaking this rule... it require AT LEAST a bit of much money to pay for that benefit After your 10th level fighter with power attack and 2 handed sword use it for a while you'll recongnize the real power of that item That fighter can attack with +10 to hit and +20 to damage and NO CONCEALMENT (remembre this!!!)... making laught for every "good AC/good disguise" monster you can prepare. And sacrificing a standard action isn't an issue at all, because against this type of monster only the first or at best the second (if you're lucky) attack really matter It IS a broken item for 2000... very very broken
Saric 03-26-07, 08:28 AM	This is what I did when this problem came up many years back. Sure the guy who wanted to make the item had a very good case in following said rules of item creation and would not back down. So I said to him sure you can make the item, but here is the catch-22. From the srd: True Strike Divination Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: See text You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target. Emphasis on the bold part. The duration of a true strike item now lasts forever, instead of just one round. But, once it is used, it is rendered inert and useless making it a very nice 1-charge item since that technically is following the rules of true strike. Sounds pretty fair to me. :)
Nom 03-26-07, 10:22 AM	Nom, I never stated that a personal spell would become a general spell. The glasses still only affect the character wearing them, limiting the effect only to the personal range.You're missing the point. It's moving from a Sor/Wiz ability to an "anyone" ability. Use-activated items work for the character when the item is used, which generally entails a standard action (as per chapter 10 of the PHB). There's no way he could benefit from the glasses without using an action to activate them. The glasses could never work as a continuous item, since the magic is subject to being discharged automatically before the duration ends.Huh? DMG pg 213: "If the use of the item takes time (such as drinking a potion or putting on or taking off a ring) before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time (such as swinging a magic sword that has a built-in enhancement bonus), use activation is not an action at all." Almost every attempt to abuse a true strike item applies the latter activation mode. And items using non-standard modes certainly exist. Some eyes (DMG pg 256) are activated as a gaze attack, which has an automatic component (MM pg 309). The glove of storing activates as a free action. The periapt of wound closure activates automatically, as does the phylactery of faithfulness. A precedent exists for the "as required" interpretation. But competing precedents certainly exist for the pricing.
Witch 03-26-07, 10:37 AM	Emphasis on the bold part. The duration of a true strike item now lasts forever, instead of just one round. But, once it is used, it is rendered inert and useless making it a very nice 1-charge item since that technically is following the rules of true strike. You seemed to miss the part where it said "if it is made before the end of the next round".
Marcus Majarra 03-26-07, 04:17 PM	You're missing the point. It's moving from a Sor/Wiz ability to an "anyone" ability. There's already precedent for this kind of magic items in the SRD: the necklace of fireballs. It makes a sor/wiz spell accessible to anyone. This is not within the realm of abuse. What's within the realm of abuse is changing the activation process when the purpose of the item is to emulate a use of the spell in question. Using the necklace of fireballs is still a standard action, just like casting the fireball spell. Activating glasses of true strike should remain a standard action if the purpose is to reproduce the true strike spell. As I said, if the goal is to create an item that provides a continuous +20 insight bonus on attack rolls and the ability to negate miss chance, we're talking about an item worth at least 425,000 gp.
ryryguy 03-26-07, 06:43 PM	You're missing the point. It's moving from a Sor/Wiz ability to an "anyone" ability. It's an interesting question. Is this really such a big deal? Is it just because you can't put Personal range spells in a potion? Maybe it's worth some increase in price, but how much? Looking over the list of Personal range spells there are a few that I see where there are core wondrous items that provide them to anyone... ring of blinking, hat of disguise, brooch of shielding (sort of - only the magic missile defense part of shield), helm of comprehend languages and read magic... There are probably others as well, I'm just cursorily glancing over the list. What about other items that grant a class' non-spell abilities to members of other classes? e.g., Monk's Belt, aren't there others too? I mean, calling true strike a "Sor/Wiz ability" is a bit of an overstatement. It's a Sor/Wiz spell. So if an item can grant a full-on ability to a non-class member, how bad is it to grant a single spell?
Saric 03-26-07, 07:06 PM	You seemed to miss the part where it said "if it is made before the end of the next round". Making a continous effect magic item just increases the duration to effectively permanent while worn. thus instead of lasting before the end of the next round, it would be on the next attack since the duration = continuous. I would be within rights to say the item works exactly like the spell and only works on the next attack and loses its properties after 1 use. There is many interpretations to this, but the general consensus is "don't let it ruin your game."
A_Wizard_for_Breakfast 03-27-07, 10:07 AM	In this way a spell that has "personal" range, that means only caster can use that, become "general", that means everyone can use it There's no way, by the RAW and with normal magic items (those on the DMG) to give the true strike effect to someone that cannot cast it... you're breaking this rule... it require AT LEAST a bit of much money to pay for that benefit I submit to you: Ring of Blinking. After your 10th level fighter with power attack and 2 handed sword use it for a while you'll recongnize the real power of that item That fighter can attack with +10 to hit and +20 to damage and NO CONCEALMENT (remembre this!!!)... making laught for every "good AC/good disguise" monster you can prepare. And sacrificing a standard action isn't an issue at all, because against this type of monster only the first or at best the second (if you're lucky) attack really matter It IS a broken item for 2000... very very broken Actually, 10th is where fighter types really begin to lag. Dominate Person (5th level spell) from a 10th level wizard will turn that fighter into a liability. Add to this that said fighter burns a round of attacks getting his +10 to hit and +20 to damage and that he still needs to find a character with total concealment to attack and it's really not such a horrid thing, especially at 10th level. Making it continuous would be bad, but costing a standard action to use hurts fighter's a lot.