Rays and Sneak attack damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rays and Sneak attack damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
James18
06-28-07, 06:16 AM Took a quick look though the faq and didn't find an answer so here it is.

Player of mine is looking to build a Rouge/Mage charter looking to be casting spells from 30ft away and adding sneak attack damage to it.

Point blank shot/ Weapon focus ray a build looking like that

My question is how does SA damage work with spells. Rays would work just fine, so is it any touch attack ranged or otherwise that do damage is needed for the SA damage to apply?

He's talking about quicken spell with ray of frost to do 1d3 +Butt load of SA damage multiply times at later levels on surprise rounds.

What about feats or spells that shoot out multiple rays?

Scorching ray shooting out two rays against flanked or surprised opponents does scorching ray damage and SA damage to both, or only SA damage to one?

What about split ray feat, does SA damage go to both targets or is it done once evenly to both targets? assuming they are both suitable for SA damage

Also if you take a Prestige class that increases your caster level does you familiar increase in power as well, i don't think so but just want to check.
Leilond
06-28-07, 07:00 AM Took a quick look though the faq and didn't find an answer so here it is.

Player of mine is looking to build a Rouge/Mage charter looking to be casting spells from 30ft away and adding sneak attack damage to it.

Point blank shot/ Weapon focus ray a build looking like that

My question is how does SA damage work with spells. Rays would work just fine, so is it any touch attack ranged or otherwise that do damage is needed for the SA damage to apply?

He's talking about quicken spell with ray of frost to do 1d3 +Butt load of SA damage multiply times at later levels on surprise rounds.

What about feats or spells that shoot out multiple rays?

Scorching ray shooting out two rays against flanked or surprised opponents does scorching ray damage and SA damage to both, or only SA damage to one?

What about split ray feat, does SA damage go to both targets or is it done once evenly to both targets? assuming they are both suitable for SA damage

Also if you take a Prestige class that increases your caster level does you familiar increase in power as well, i don't think so but just want to check.

It is written on the faqs
Every time you have a single attack roll that deliver more hits (manyshot) or multiple hit roll as consequence of a single action (scorching ray used as example) you deliver only one single precision damage (like sneak attack damage) with the first attack/hit
James18
06-28-07, 07:25 AM Thanks I was thinking as much but couldn't find it in the faq. Quicken spell on a level 0 will still work. Which will just be funny.
Leilond
06-28-07, 07:34 AM Thanks I was thinking as much but couldn't find it in the faq. Quicken spell on a level 0 will still work. Which will just be funny.

Sure. I can use "quickened acid splash" and then "frost ray" against a flat footed character to deliver two sneak attack
The first will deliver acid sneak damage (ignored by acid immune creatures)
The second will deliver cold sneak damage (ignored by cold immune cratures)

P.S.
Because, we have to remember, that the damage from sneak attack use the same energy of the main damage of the attack
Kouk
06-28-07, 07:37 AM You should check out Complete Arcane for lots of rules about using spells as weapons for sneak attack and other things.

Your player may also be interested in the Spellwarp Sniper PrC, it lets you change Touch spells into Rays, and builds on sneak attack damage.
maharai23
06-28-07, 07:54 AM Yep. Just to confirm above. Any form of precision-based damage applies only once per attack roll, and is not subject to increase through critical hit. This includes Sneak attack, Skirmish, precise strike, Favored Enemy bonus damage, and the like.

Easiest way I use to rule it, is that if it doesn't work on constructs and undead (without the use of Golem Strike, and Grave Strike spells), it's precision based.
Inigo Carmine
06-28-07, 09:10 AM 1) Yes you can sneak attack with any spell that requires a to-hit roll, and does damage. Ray of frost can be used to sneak attack, Ray of enfeeblement can't. Sneak attack damage is also HP damage only, but is the same type of damage as the attack that caused it. ie: cold damage for ray of frost.

note, these are also spells you can get a critical hit with.

2) Keep in mind that to sneak attack someone, you must flank them, or they must be denied their dex bonus to AC. You cannot flank someone with a ranged attack, so ray spells won't help you here. As a caster, he should be able to get some greater invisibility going though, which will deny opponents their dex bonus to AC.

You can flank with a melee touch attack, but melee is not something caster usually get into on purpose.

3) Sneak attack isn't delivered "once per attack roll", but once "per attack". You'll notice that scorching ray actually involves multiple attack rolls (if you can cast multiple rays per casting), but it is still only a single attack.

In general, if something is only a standard action, it is only a single attack. For instance, one could use produce flame and make a full attack (though probably not on the casting round) and make multiple sneak attacks as part of that full attack.

Exceptions to this :standard actions are single attacks" rule of thumb will explicitly say so, and the only exception I know of is improved manyshot from the psionics handbook.

4)
He's talking about quicken spell with ray of frost to do 1d3 +Butt load of SA damage multiply times at later levels on surprise rounds.

You can only cast one free action spell per round (otherwise known as a swift action). Also, if he has enough caster levels to get off a quickened ray of frost, his rogue levels will be so disproportionately low that his additional sneak attack damage will be unimpressive in the limited situations he can even pull this off on.

In general, sneak attacking with a touch spell is a neat trick for hitting high AC/low touch ac opponents. Compared the damage a straight caster could be doing though, he will find himself lacking.
mvincent
06-28-07, 12:19 PM From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a):
"Spells as Sneak Attacks
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).

With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack."

Also:
"Volley Type Attacks
Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack."
Karui_Kage
06-28-07, 01:20 PM Quick side question while the topic is on rays. I know you can crit with rays, but can you crit with rays that do ability penalties (IE: Ray of Enfeeblement)? I would normally say yes, but the issue about ability penalties from the same spell not stacking makes me inclined to wonder. I assume actual ability damage from a ray spell could crit, yes? Since it is damage?

Thanks for the help.
mvincent
06-28-07, 01:31 PM Quick side question while the topic is on rays. I know you can crit with rays, but can you crit with rays that do ability penalties (IE: Ray of Enfeeblement)? I would normally say yes, but the issue about ability penalties from the same spell not stacking makes me inclined to wonder. I assume actual ability damage from a ray spell could crit, yes? Since it is damage?From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):
"If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."

However, since Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do damage (it only applies a penalty), you could not crit with it. If it instead did ability damage, you could.
Karui_Kage
06-28-07, 01:38 PM Thanks. I had thought that was the case, but wasn't sure when it last occurred. Oh well, I'll know for next time. :)
Inigo Carmine
06-28-07, 01:39 PM Quick side question while the topic is on rays. I know you can crit with rays, but can you crit with rays that do ability penalties (IE: Ray of Enfeeblement)? I would normally say yes, but the issue about ability penalties from the same spell not stacking makes me inclined to wonder. I assume actual ability damage from a ray spell could crit, yes? Since it is damage?

Thanks for the help.

Most of the time, D&D uses very specific language. There are exceptions, but I won't waste space ranting about those here.

Anyways, when it comes to criticals, the language is very specific: you do "double damage" (or tripple, or whatever the multiplier is). It is not the effect that gets multiplied, it is specifically the damage. If there is no damage, there is nothing to double.

Ability damage is damage, so you can crit (or sneak attack) with such spells. And to reiterate, the sneak attack damage here would be HP damage, not more ability damage. The extra damage on a critical, however, would be in more ability damage.
Lilinthra
06-28-07, 01:44 PM From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):
"If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit."

However, since Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do damage (it only applies a penalty), you could not crit with it. If it instead did ability damage, you could.
This came up in a game last night. After looking at the section on weaponlike spells in Complete Arcane, it specifically mentioned ray of enfeeblement as a spell that is not doubled on a crit for this reason.
Karui_Kage
06-28-07, 02:16 PM Aw man, I had that page open when I was looking up the info during the game too. Must have overlooked it. Oops! :blush:
ChrisRogers
06-28-07, 03:30 PM Your player may also be interested in the Spellwarp Sniper PrC, it lets you change Touch spells into Rays, and builds on sneak attack damage.

I'm sure I'm being excessively picky but a Spellwarp Sniper can’t turn touch spells into rays. I believe the class feature description reads, “Any spell that deals damage and has a range greater than touch.”

There’s a feat in Complete Divine that let’s you turn touch spells into 30 ft rays. The Archmage has a class feature that lets you do that too.
James18
06-28-07, 05:48 PM Awww, much better, thanks guys.

Yeah i overlooked the multiattack part. Well that makes his uber charter much less then he could have been. Go rules :w00t:

Yeah he was talking about split raying scorching ray to like SA 8-12 guys. Yeah and then unloading his 4th level spell list on quicken ray of frosts on the surprise round to hose everything in sight. Even with like 5d6 its would have been a lot. I knew it sounded just plain wrong.:noway:

He can later IF he can manage the caster levels get disintegrate and ray of frost SA on the same round with quicken spell.:eek:

thanks again. :)
Dragom
06-28-07, 10:53 PM Yeah he was talking about split raying scorching ray to like SA 8-12 guys.

SA one guy... I think anyway... It's all kind of one attack.

Yeah and then unloading his 4th level spell list on quicken ray of frosts on the surprise round to hose everything in sight.

Limit one Quickened Spell a round.
Eater_Of_Souls
06-29-07, 09:26 AM From PHB page 50.
Ranged attacks count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30ft.

An important rule, my brother converted a Kercpa (a sentient squirrel from AD&D in to 3ed)
Well it first of all he chose ranger/rogue as a class, seconly a squirrel gets nigh imbossible dex bonuses and racials to hide due to it being so small, a normal bow would do 1d4-1 dmg but since they were sneak attacks he got the sneak attack bonus on that tiny bow making it a 1d4-1 + 3d6 ... and knock out poison (as drow poison a racial thing).
Add this with the "ability of hiding with a 1/3 chance in combat" and you have a killer squirrel...
We converted the change in to hide bonus but since hide in plain sight has only about DC -20 with cover to succeed in combat ...
this meant he got a lot of sneak attacks in combat ...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
James18 06-28-07, 06:16 AM	Took a quick look though the faq and didn't find an answer so here it is. Player of mine is looking to build a Rouge/Mage charter looking to be casting spells from 30ft away and adding sneak attack damage to it. Point blank shot/ Weapon focus ray a build looking like that My question is how does SA damage work with spells. Rays would work just fine, so is it any touch attack ranged or otherwise that do damage is needed for the SA damage to apply? He's talking about quicken spell with ray of frost to do 1d3 +Butt load of SA damage multiply times at later levels on surprise rounds. What about feats or spells that shoot out multiple rays? Scorching ray shooting out two rays against flanked or surprised opponents does scorching ray damage and SA damage to both, or only SA damage to one? What about split ray feat, does SA damage go to both targets or is it done once evenly to both targets? assuming they are both suitable for SA damage Also if you take a Prestige class that increases your caster level does you familiar increase in power as well, i don't think so but just want to check.
Leilond 06-28-07, 07:00 AM	Took a quick look though the faq and didn't find an answer so here it is. Player of mine is looking to build a Rouge/Mage charter looking to be casting spells from 30ft away and adding sneak attack damage to it. Point blank shot/ Weapon focus ray a build looking like that My question is how does SA damage work with spells. Rays would work just fine, so is it any touch attack ranged or otherwise that do damage is needed for the SA damage to apply? He's talking about quicken spell with ray of frost to do 1d3 +Butt load of SA damage multiply times at later levels on surprise rounds. What about feats or spells that shoot out multiple rays? Scorching ray shooting out two rays against flanked or surprised opponents does scorching ray damage and SA damage to both, or only SA damage to one? What about split ray feat, does SA damage go to both targets or is it done once evenly to both targets? assuming they are both suitable for SA damage Also if you take a Prestige class that increases your caster level does you familiar increase in power as well, i don't think so but just want to check. It is written on the faqs Every time you have a single attack roll that deliver more hits (manyshot) or multiple hit roll as consequence of a single action (scorching ray used as example) you deliver only one single precision damage (like sneak attack damage) with the first attack/hit
James18 06-28-07, 07:25 AM	Thanks I was thinking as much but couldn't find it in the faq. Quicken spell on a level 0 will still work. Which will just be funny.
Leilond 06-28-07, 07:34 AM	Thanks I was thinking as much but couldn't find it in the faq. Quicken spell on a level 0 will still work. Which will just be funny. Sure. I can use "quickened acid splash" and then "frost ray" against a flat footed character to deliver two sneak attack The first will deliver acid sneak damage (ignored by acid immune creatures) The second will deliver cold sneak damage (ignored by cold immune cratures) P.S. Because, we have to remember, that the damage from sneak attack use the same energy of the main damage of the attack
Kouk 06-28-07, 07:37 AM	You should check out Complete Arcane for lots of rules about using spells as weapons for sneak attack and other things. Your player may also be interested in the Spellwarp Sniper PrC, it lets you change Touch spells into Rays, and builds on sneak attack damage.
maharai23 06-28-07, 07:54 AM	Yep. Just to confirm above. Any form of precision-based damage applies only once per attack roll, and is not subject to increase through critical hit. This includes Sneak attack, Skirmish, precise strike, Favored Enemy bonus damage, and the like. Easiest way I use to rule it, is that if it doesn't work on constructs and undead (without the use of Golem Strike, and Grave Strike spells), it's precision based.
Inigo Carmine 06-28-07, 09:10 AM	1) Yes you can sneak attack with any spell that requires a to-hit roll, and does damage. Ray of frost can be used to sneak attack, Ray of enfeeblement can't. Sneak attack damage is also HP damage only, but is the same type of damage as the attack that caused it. ie: cold damage for ray of frost. note, these are also spells you can get a critical hit with. 2) Keep in mind that to sneak attack someone, you must flank them, or they must be denied their dex bonus to AC. You cannot flank someone with a ranged attack, so ray spells won't help you here. As a caster, he should be able to get some greater invisibility going though, which will deny opponents their dex bonus to AC. You can flank with a melee touch attack, but melee is not something caster usually get into on purpose. 3) Sneak attack isn't delivered "once per attack roll", but once "per attack". You'll notice that scorching ray actually involves multiple attack rolls (if you can cast multiple rays per casting), but it is still only a single attack. In general, if something is only a standard action, it is only a single attack. For instance, one could use produce flame and make a full attack (though probably not on the casting round) and make multiple sneak attacks as part of that full attack. Exceptions to this :standard actions are single attacks" rule of thumb will explicitly say so, and the only exception I know of is improved manyshot from the psionics handbook. 4) He's talking about quicken spell with ray of frost to do 1d3 +Butt load of SA damage multiply times at later levels on surprise rounds. You can only cast one free action spell per round (otherwise known as a swift action). Also, if he has enough caster levels to get off a quickened ray of frost, his rogue levels will be so disproportionately low that his additional sneak attack damage will be unimpressive in the limited situations he can even pull this off on. In general, sneak attacking with a touch spell is a neat trick for hitting high AC/low touch ac opponents. Compared the damage a straight caster could be doing though, he will find himself lacking.
mvincent 06-28-07, 12:19 PM	From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a): "Spells as Sneak Attacks Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell. Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack). A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage. If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack). With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack." Also: "Volley Type Attacks Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack."
Karui_Kage 06-28-07, 01:20 PM	Quick side question while the topic is on rays. I know you can crit with rays, but can you crit with rays that do ability penalties (IE: Ray of Enfeeblement)? I would normally say yes, but the issue about ability penalties from the same spell not stacking makes me inclined to wonder. I assume actual ability damage from a ray spell could crit, yes? Since it is damage? Thanks for the help.
mvincent 06-28-07, 01:31 PM	Quick side question while the topic is on rays. I know you can crit with rays, but can you crit with rays that do ability penalties (IE: Ray of Enfeeblement)? I would normally say yes, but the issue about ability penalties from the same spell not stacking makes me inclined to wonder. I assume actual ability damage from a ray spell could crit, yes? Since it is damage?From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm): "If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit." However, since Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do damage (it only applies a penalty), you could not crit with it. If it instead did ability damage, you could.
Karui_Kage 06-28-07, 01:38 PM	Thanks. I had thought that was the case, but wasn't sure when it last occurred. Oh well, I'll know for next time. :)
Inigo Carmine 06-28-07, 01:39 PM	Quick side question while the topic is on rays. I know you can crit with rays, but can you crit with rays that do ability penalties (IE: Ray of Enfeeblement)? I would normally say yes, but the issue about ability penalties from the same spell not stacking makes me inclined to wonder. I assume actual ability damage from a ray spell could crit, yes? Since it is damage? Thanks for the help. Most of the time, D&D uses very specific language. There are exceptions, but I won't waste space ranting about those here. Anyways, when it comes to criticals, the language is very specific: you do "double damage" (or tripple, or whatever the multiplier is). It is not the effect that gets multiplied, it is specifically the damage. If there is no damage, there is nothing to double. Ability damage is damage, so you can crit (or sneak attack) with such spells. And to reiterate, the sneak attack damage here would be HP damage, not more ability damage. The extra damage on a critical, however, would be in more ability damage.
Lilinthra 06-28-07, 01:44 PM	From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm): "If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit." However, since Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't do damage (it only applies a penalty), you could not crit with it. If it instead did ability damage, you could. This came up in a game last night. After looking at the section on weaponlike spells in Complete Arcane, it specifically mentioned ray of enfeeblement as a spell that is not doubled on a crit for this reason.
Karui_Kage 06-28-07, 02:16 PM	Aw man, I had that page open when I was looking up the info during the game too. Must have overlooked it. Oops! :blush:
ChrisRogers 06-28-07, 03:30 PM	Your player may also be interested in the Spellwarp Sniper PrC, it lets you change Touch spells into Rays, and builds on sneak attack damage. I'm sure I'm being excessively picky but a Spellwarp Sniper can’t turn touch spells into rays. I believe the class feature description reads, “Any spell that deals damage and has a range greater than touch.” There’s a feat in Complete Divine that let’s you turn touch spells into 30 ft rays. The Archmage has a class feature that lets you do that too.
James18 06-28-07, 05:48 PM	Awww, much better, thanks guys. Yeah i overlooked the multiattack part. Well that makes his uber charter much less then he could have been. Go rules :w00t: Yeah he was talking about split raying scorching ray to like SA 8-12 guys. Yeah and then unloading his 4th level spell list on quicken ray of frosts on the surprise round to hose everything in sight. Even with like 5d6 its would have been a lot. I knew it sounded just plain wrong.:noway: He can later IF he can manage the caster levels get disintegrate and ray of frost SA on the same round with quicken spell.:eek: thanks again. :)
Dragom 06-28-07, 10:53 PM	Yeah he was talking about split raying scorching ray to like SA 8-12 guys. SA one guy... I think anyway... It's all kind of one attack. Yeah and then unloading his 4th level spell list on quicken ray of frosts on the surprise round to hose everything in sight. Limit one Quickened Spell a round.
Eater_Of_Souls 06-29-07, 09:26 AM	From PHB page 50. Ranged attacks count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30ft. An important rule, my brother converted a Kercpa (a sentient squirrel from AD&D in to 3ed) Well it first of all he chose ranger/rogue as a class, seconly a squirrel gets nigh imbossible dex bonuses and racials to hide due to it being so small, a normal bow would do 1d4-1 dmg but since they were sneak attacks he got the sneak attack bonus on that tiny bow making it a 1d4-1 + 3d6 ... and knock out poison (as drow poison a racial thing). Add this with the "ability of hiding with a 1/3 chance in combat" and you have a killer squirrel... We converted the change in to hide bonus but since hide in plain sight has only about DC -20 with cover to succeed in combat ... this meant he got a lot of sneak attacks in combat ...