RE: Running the "Basic Game" box set [Archive] - Wizards Community

RE: Running the "Basic Game" box set [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rood_Inverse
03-04-08, 08:16 PM I tend to over-complicate things for myself and others. I just need some perspective on how to keep things really simple for a group who is learning 3.5 for the first time.

My questions are going to be geared more towards teaching, rather than trying to nail down RAW right away.

. . .

(1) Advanced Rulebook - p7 - This is the first time they explain the concept of an AoO.

"If a character starts the turn next to a monster, the character can only move one square unless the character wants to proboke an attack of opportunity from the monster."

What should I say when they ask if they can take that one square and then take their move action, to get out of the monster's range?

"Simple," to me, would mean that they call it a double-move and that's the end of their turn. Good call, or is there a better way to teach this? I just have this certainty such a question will be asked when I start explaining the rules in detail.

. . .

(2) Same page as above.

"If a chararacter moves next to a monster, the character must stop or the monster gets a free attack against that character right away."

This is RAW, correct? To be honest, AoOs have always confused me - I had some bad 3.5 teachers. To move UP TO someone, inside their threatened area, and attack does NOT provoke an AoO? To move THROUGH someone's threatened area DOES (always?) provoke and AoO?
Kouk
03-05-08, 05:04 AM You provoke an AoO by moving OUT of a threatened square.

Typically, if you are fighting a medium creature with normal reach, moving up to him won't provoke because you are not exiting any of his threatened squares. If you move adjacent to him, and then keep moving, you would then be exiting a threatened square.

If the enemy you approach is wielding a Reach Weapon such as a Glaive, or has natural reach, then just moving adjacent to him will make you pass through and out of one of his threatened squares (the ones 10 ft away). That would also cause you to provoke.

There are lots of ways around this, like Tumbling or having your own reach weapon or whatever but it isn't that important for beginners.

I would really not recommend trying to use the Basic Game as a teaching aid. I own both of the ones put out by WotC (non-random Minis and some extra dice FTW!) and it seems to me that it would be a terrible way to try and learn the game. The Basic Game tries really hard to keep things simple, but the result is that new players are actually learning a different game than D&D 3.5.

Additionally, there are mistakes with stat blocks and character sheets, at least in the Blue Dragon version. If I recall correctly, the pre-generated wizard does not seem to be the same character from level 1 to 2 to 3, the stats don't add up right.

The adventure itself would probably be a decent tool though, because it is so nice and simple.
Rood_Inverse
03-05-08, 10:09 PM In the event that I don't run the box set... Which adventures do you recommend running? I'd like something that I can finish in one session, including character generation. For people who have never played before.

Remember... We're meeting once a month, for only about 5-6 hours. So, I'd like to start them and give them something they can accomplish on their first time out.

If you just leave someone hanging with no sense of resolution (because time ran out, rather than a pre-planned cliffhanger), you risk having that player not come back. And that's just not the experience I want them to walk away with.
Kouk
03-06-08, 08:51 PM OK, well I was a bit harsh on the set I suppose. It can be useful as a teaching aid to some people, it is just not the optimal way I would choose to learn this game myself.

If you think that the simplified rules will work for your friends, you probably know them better than I do :P

The adventure itself should be fine. If you want some other low level adventures you can look around here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b for some low level short adventures.

If you are going to have them use prefabricated characters such as presented in the Basic Game, you may want to search around the forums for player-made errata or make up the character sheets for levels 2 and 3 yourself.

There are two versions of the Basic Game, one with a Black Dragon and one with a Blue Dragon.

If you are going to teach others how to play and they won't just read the rulebooks themselves, you should refresh yourself on all the rules again.
Rood_Inverse
03-06-08, 09:02 PM I'll be the only one with rulebooks, actually...

I got the version with the blue dragon. Only version I've seen, actually.

What's different? Other than dragon color, of course.
Lord_Varos
03-06-08, 09:08 PM What should I say when they ask if they can take that one square and then take their move action, to get out of the monster's range?
You can only take that 5-foot step if you do not move at all during the rest of the round. If you're adjacent and don't take an attack of opportunity, your total movement for the round is limited to 5 feet.
Rood_Inverse
03-06-08, 10:34 PM If you're in a threatened area, the only move action allowed is the 5' step? Do I understand that right?
pedro2112
03-07-08, 11:38 AM If you're in a threatened area, the only move action allowed is the 5' step? Do I understand that right?

No, you can do a lot of move actions, but many provoke attacks of opportunity.

If you are really asking whether a 5' step is the only movement allowed in a threatened square that would not provoke an attack of opportunity, then the answer would be no. There are several ways to move out of a threatened square without provoking the AoO. Tumbling and the withdraw move action are two that come to mind.
Rood_Inverse
03-07-08, 03:54 PM Can you clarify his statement then? Because what you just said... And what he said... Don't come together very well in my mind. =\

"You can only take that 5-foot step if you do not move at all during the rest of the round. If you're adjacent and don't take an attack of opportunity, your total movement for the round is limited to 5 feet."
pedro2112
03-08-08, 02:44 AM Can you clarify his statement then? Because what you just said... And what he said... Don't come together very well in my mind. =\

I reread the thread and see where the confusion sets in. If you start adjacent to a non-reach weapon enemy, you can take a 5' step to avoid an attack of opportunity, but that would be the only "move action" you could do that round. If your player wants to move more than 5' and not provoke an attack of opportunity, he/she must either use the withdraw action (which is a full round action), or use the tumble skill successfully.

I hope that clears up the confusion.
Lord_Varos
03-10-08, 12:21 AM A 5-foot step is not a move action at all. It's a non-action. Think of it like talking: the characters can do it whenever they want without having to roll or using an action on it. What this non-action does is it moves you five feet in any direction, provoking no attacks of opportunity for doing so. When you take this non-action, you still have your entire regular turn for you to use, including a move action and standard action.

There are three restrictions on this action. First, you cannot do it if you've already moved this round. Second, you can't move again in the round if you've already taken the 5-foot step. Third, you can only do it once per round.

In summary, a five-foot step is a free action that takes no time or effort and provokes no attacks of opportunity. If you take that action, it must be the only movement you do during the round.
pedro2112
03-11-08, 01:34 AM In summary, a five-foot step is a free action that takes no time or effort and provokes no attacks of opportunity. If you take that action, it must be the only movement you do during the round.
Yes, like I said.
Lord_Varos
03-11-08, 07:00 PM Yep. Thought I'd expound on your statement a little.
Rood_Inverse
03-11-08, 11:05 PM Varos' statement was exactly (and explicitly) what I needed to hear. ^_^

Thanks!
pedro2112
03-12-08, 01:07 AM Yep. Thought I'd expound on your statement a little.

And you did quite well, I might add!

;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rood_Inverse 03-04-08, 08:16 PM	I tend to over-complicate things for myself and others. I just need some perspective on how to keep things really simple for a group who is learning 3.5 for the first time. My questions are going to be geared more towards teaching, rather than trying to nail down RAW right away. . . . (1) Advanced Rulebook - p7 - This is the first time they explain the concept of an AoO. "If a character starts the turn next to a monster, the character can only move one square unless the character wants to proboke an attack of opportunity from the monster." What should I say when they ask if they can take that one square and then take their move action, to get out of the monster's range? "Simple," to me, would mean that they call it a double-move and that's the end of their turn. Good call, or is there a better way to teach this? I just have this certainty such a question will be asked when I start explaining the rules in detail. . . . (2) Same page as above. "If a chararacter moves next to a monster, the character must stop or the monster gets a free attack against that character right away." This is RAW, correct? To be honest, AoOs have always confused me - I had some bad 3.5 teachers. To move UP TO someone, inside their threatened area, and attack does NOT provoke an AoO? To move THROUGH someone's threatened area DOES (always?) provoke and AoO?
Kouk 03-05-08, 05:04 AM	You provoke an AoO by moving OUT of a threatened square. Typically, if you are fighting a medium creature with normal reach, moving up to him won't provoke because you are not exiting any of his threatened squares. If you move adjacent to him, and then keep moving, you would then be exiting a threatened square. If the enemy you approach is wielding a Reach Weapon such as a Glaive, or has natural reach, then just moving adjacent to him will make you pass through and out of one of his threatened squares (the ones 10 ft away). That would also cause you to provoke. There are lots of ways around this, like Tumbling or having your own reach weapon or whatever but it isn't that important for beginners. I would really not recommend trying to use the Basic Game as a teaching aid. I own both of the ones put out by WotC (non-random Minis and some extra dice FTW!) and it seems to me that it would be a terrible way to try and learn the game. The Basic Game tries really hard to keep things simple, but the result is that new players are actually learning a different game than D&D 3.5. Additionally, there are mistakes with stat blocks and character sheets, at least in the Blue Dragon version. If I recall correctly, the pre-generated wizard does not seem to be the same character from level 1 to 2 to 3, the stats don't add up right. The adventure itself would probably be a decent tool though, because it is so nice and simple.
Rood_Inverse 03-05-08, 10:09 PM	In the event that I don't run the box set... Which adventures do you recommend running? I'd like something that I can finish in one session, including character generation. For people who have never played before. Remember... We're meeting once a month, for only about 5-6 hours. So, I'd like to start them and give them something they can accomplish on their first time out. If you just leave someone hanging with no sense of resolution (because time ran out, rather than a pre-planned cliffhanger), you risk having that player not come back. And that's just not the experience I want them to walk away with.
Kouk 03-06-08, 08:51 PM	OK, well I was a bit harsh on the set I suppose. It can be useful as a teaching aid to some people, it is just not the optimal way I would choose to learn this game myself. If you think that the simplified rules will work for your friends, you probably know them better than I do :P The adventure itself should be fine. If you want some other low level adventures you can look around here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b for some low level short adventures. If you are going to have them use prefabricated characters such as presented in the Basic Game, you may want to search around the forums for player-made errata or make up the character sheets for levels 2 and 3 yourself. There are two versions of the Basic Game, one with a Black Dragon and one with a Blue Dragon. If you are going to teach others how to play and they won't just read the rulebooks themselves, you should refresh yourself on all the rules again.
Rood_Inverse 03-06-08, 09:02 PM	I'll be the only one with rulebooks, actually... I got the version with the blue dragon. Only version I've seen, actually. What's different? Other than dragon color, of course.
Lord_Varos 03-06-08, 09:08 PM	What should I say when they ask if they can take that one square and then take their move action, to get out of the monster's range? You can only take that 5-foot step if you do not move at all during the rest of the round. If you're adjacent and don't take an attack of opportunity, your total movement for the round is limited to 5 feet.
Rood_Inverse 03-06-08, 10:34 PM	If you're in a threatened area, the only move action allowed is the 5' step? Do I understand that right?
pedro2112 03-07-08, 11:38 AM	If you're in a threatened area, the only move action allowed is the 5' step? Do I understand that right? No, you can do a lot of move actions, but many provoke attacks of opportunity. If you are really asking whether a 5' step is the only movement allowed in a threatened square that would not provoke an attack of opportunity, then the answer would be no. There are several ways to move out of a threatened square without provoking the AoO. Tumbling and the withdraw move action are two that come to mind.
Rood_Inverse 03-07-08, 03:54 PM	Can you clarify his statement then? Because what you just said... And what he said... Don't come together very well in my mind. =\ "You can only take that 5-foot step if you do not move at all during the rest of the round. If you're adjacent and don't take an attack of opportunity, your total movement for the round is limited to 5 feet."
pedro2112 03-08-08, 02:44 AM	Can you clarify his statement then? Because what you just said... And what he said... Don't come together very well in my mind. =\ I reread the thread and see where the confusion sets in. If you start adjacent to a non-reach weapon enemy, you can take a 5' step to avoid an attack of opportunity, but that would be the only "move action" you could do that round. If your player wants to move more than 5' and not provoke an attack of opportunity, he/she must either use the withdraw action (which is a full round action), or use the tumble skill successfully. I hope that clears up the confusion.
Lord_Varos 03-10-08, 12:21 AM	A 5-foot step is not a move action at all. It's a non-action. Think of it like talking: the characters can do it whenever they want without having to roll or using an action on it. What this non-action does is it moves you five feet in any direction, provoking no attacks of opportunity for doing so. When you take this non-action, you still have your entire regular turn for you to use, including a move action and standard action. There are three restrictions on this action. First, you cannot do it if you've already moved this round. Second, you can't move again in the round if you've already taken the 5-foot step. Third, you can only do it once per round. In summary, a five-foot step is a free action that takes no time or effort and provokes no attacks of opportunity. If you take that action, it must be the only movement you do during the round.
pedro2112 03-11-08, 01:34 AM	In summary, a five-foot step is a free action that takes no time or effort and provokes no attacks of opportunity. If you take that action, it must be the only movement you do during the round. Yes, like I said.
Lord_Varos 03-11-08, 07:00 PM	Yep. Thought I'd expound on your statement a little.
Rood_Inverse 03-11-08, 11:05 PM	Varos' statement was exactly (and explicitly) what I needed to hear. ^_^ Thanks!
pedro2112 03-12-08, 01:07 AM	Yep. Thought I'd expound on your statement a little. And you did quite well, I might add! ;)