Reach and Whip Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reach and Whip Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
spiller
05-26-07, 11:22 AM OK, here goes. I hope someone can help me:

I'm running a module adventure and there are two opponents that have two (different) magical whips (+1 and +1 merciful wounding) The questions are:

1) A whip can't deal damage to an opponent with any armor bonus to her AC nor to anyone with natural armor +3 or higher. Does a magical whip bypass this rule? If not, do the extra damage from the merciful and wounding properties bypass it?
2) Does a standard +1 whip deal lethal or non-lethal damage? (a non-magical one deals non-lethal) edit: OR is the 1 point from the +1 property lethal and the rest non-lethal?
3) Does soft cover apply to reach weapons (or monsters with natural reach)? And where can I find this rule?

edit: Turns out, I'm one of the lucky ones that has the search feature enabled on these forums, so I did a search which answered question #3 for me. I found some pretty unreliable answers to the first two ones, however, so I'm still unclear about those.

edit 2: Yeah, I was wondering why enemies of EL 14 wound have +1 Whips IF they can't damage even a wizard of that level (who would likely have even some armor bonus from spells/magic items)
MarkB
05-26-07, 12:48 PM OK, here goes. I hope someone can help me:

I'm running a module adventure and there are two opponents that have two (different) magical whips (+1 and +1 merciful wounding) The questions are:

1) A whip can't deal damage to an opponent with any armor bonus to her AC nor to anyone with natural armor +3 or higher. Does a magical whip bypass this rule? If not, do the extra damage from the merciful and wounding properties bypass it?
No, and no. A magical whip is still a whip, and follows the rules for whips.

2) Does a standard +1 whip deal lethal or non-lethal damage? (a non-magical one deals non-lethal) edit: OR is the 1 point from the +1 property lethal and the rest non-lethal?
Non-lethal all the way through.

I'd tend to consider extra elemental damage, such as from a Flaming property, as lethal damage, but in fact a Sage Advice answer in Dragon #356 suggests that it's all non-lethal.
spiller
05-26-07, 02:23 PM OK, thanks for your input, MarkB!

I'm still probably going to house-rule that the extra damage is going to bypass the normal damge dealing restrictions of the whip.
Ace_of_time
05-26-07, 08:32 PM OK, thanks for your input, MarkB!

I'm still probably going to house-rule that the extra damage is going to bypass the normal damge dealing restrictions of the whip.

Just switch it to whip daggers.
Xykon
05-29-07, 02:15 AM If you're worried about the non-lethal damage you might want to see if you can maximize the use its Disarm and Trip abilities...

On top of this, Ace_of_time's advice seems solid. Although i do not have the 3.5 stats of whip dagger.
mvincent
05-29-07, 12:44 PM I'd tend to consider extra elemental damage, such as from a Flaming property, as lethal damage, but in fact a Sage Advice answer in Dragon #356 suggests that it's all non-lethal.Yup. There the Sage seems to recommend making it all non-lethal (for simplicity), but he previously said (in the 3.5 FAQ):
"a fighter wielding a +1 flaming sword can’t choose for the fire damage to be nonlethal (even if the base weapon damage is nonlethal)."
Ace_of_time
05-29-07, 06:44 PM I always convert myself. Whip daggers/ small 1d4, med 1d6/ 19-20/times2/ range 15'/ 3lbs.

You can make heavier one that add str bonus in like comp bows. Reg cost 25 gps mighty whip draggers go for 225-525 depending on what str bonus you want.
Marcus Majarra
05-30-07, 12:23 PM I always convert myself. Whip daggers/ small 1d4, med 1d6/ 19-20/times2/ range 15'/ 3lbs.

You can make heavier one that add str bonus in like comp bows. Reg cost 25 gps mighty whip draggers go for 225-525 depending on what str bonus you want.

I don't think the conversion is so easy. Back in 3.0, I believe regular whips were considered ranged weapons, which isn't the case in 3.5. As it is, you can already apply your Str bonus to damage with a whip.
Ace_of_time
05-30-07, 02:12 PM I don't think the conversion is so easy. Back in 3.0, I believe regular whips were considered ranged weapons, which isn't the case in 3.5. As it is, you can already apply your Str bonus to damage with a whip.

1. it is treated as ranged weapon for the purpose of AoO.

2. Never seen anything that say you add str mod to damage. Please post where you get that from.

3. It would be easier for him if it did add str bonus then it would only cost 25 gps. That would not change the stats.
mvincent
05-30-07, 02:41 PM 2. Never seen anything that say you add str mod to damage. Please post where you get that from.From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip):
"The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach"
and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#strengthStr)
" You apply your character’s Strength modifier to:
* Melee attack rolls.
* Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon"
Marcus Majarra
05-30-07, 04:56 PM Personally, I believe the whip is good enough to keep without the ability to deal lethal damage. Being able to perform 2-handed trips and disarms at a 15-foot reach is plenty useful. If you want to deal damage, settle for the spiked chain.
Ace_of_time
05-31-07, 12:49 AM This is from your link:

Whip
A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a mêlée weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

Now if you say that it's changed then I have to believe you because I haven't found anything to say different but we have never put str mod on whips before and I didn't think that changed in 3.5.
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-31-07, 12:59 AM Just switch it to whip daggers.
Or, if you're the DM, houserule that pointless, inconsistant crap out of your game. No other weapon does this. How in god's name can a punch deal damage normally if a freaking exotic weapon can't?
Ace_of_time
05-31-07, 01:03 AM This was the only thing I could find so i will post it and you can make up your mind. Although it doesn't really say ad str in just you use it two handed. I think I'll house rule it to make sure. Some times I'd just like to see yes or no. Is that so hard.

It is from D&D FAQ 3.5

Can you use a whip with two hands, thus gaining 1.5 x
Strength bonus?
Given that the whip is a one-handed weapon, while it may
appear awkward, the rules of the game are clear that this is
certainly possible.
Ace_of_time
05-31-07, 01:05 AM Or, if you're the DM, houserule that pointless, inconsistant crap out of your game. No other weapon does this. How in god's name can a punch deal damage normally if a freaking exotic weapon can't?

Unarm attacks deal lethal damage??????:confused:
Vaalingrade Ashland
05-31-07, 02:49 AM Unarmed attacks don't deal lethal damage unless you have the feat, however, an unarmed strike deals subdual damage normally, regardless of what armor bonus the target has.
mvincent
05-31-07, 12:32 PM we have never put str mod on whips before and I didn't think that changed in 3.5.From 3.0 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html):
"Whip: The whip deals subdual damage. It deals no damage to any creature with even a +1 armor bonus or at least a +3 natural armor bonus. Although the whip is kept in hand, treat it as a projectile weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range penalties."

This last line is no longer the case in 3.5.
Ace_of_time
05-31-07, 06:04 PM Just so I don't fight with someone for a page and a half I think that adding in str bonus is a good thing and don't really care if the book says yes or no. I just get tired of the book saying yes and that really meaning no. I just want no to mean no and yes to mean yes.
Marcus Majarra
06-01-07, 12:38 PM Well, the 3.5 book isn't saying anything particular about whips and Str mod to damage, so they act as any other weapon of that category would. Since it's a one-handed melee weapon, you add your Str bonus to damage rolls with it (or 1.5 x Str bonus when used with two hands). There's no confusion at all here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spiller 05-26-07, 11:22 AM	OK, here goes. I hope someone can help me: I'm running a module adventure and there are two opponents that have two (different) magical whips (+1 and +1 merciful wounding) The questions are: 1) A whip can't deal damage to an opponent with any armor bonus to her AC nor to anyone with natural armor +3 or higher. Does a magical whip bypass this rule? If not, do the extra damage from the merciful and wounding properties bypass it? 2) Does a standard +1 whip deal lethal or non-lethal damage? (a non-magical one deals non-lethal) edit: OR is the 1 point from the +1 property lethal and the rest non-lethal? 3) Does soft cover apply to reach weapons (or monsters with natural reach)? And where can I find this rule? edit: Turns out, I'm one of the lucky ones that has the search feature enabled on these forums, so I did a search which answered question #3 for me. I found some pretty unreliable answers to the first two ones, however, so I'm still unclear about those. edit 2: Yeah, I was wondering why enemies of EL 14 wound have +1 Whips IF they can't damage even a wizard of that level (who would likely have even some armor bonus from spells/magic items)
MarkB 05-26-07, 12:48 PM	OK, here goes. I hope someone can help me: I'm running a module adventure and there are two opponents that have two (different) magical whips (+1 and +1 merciful wounding) The questions are: 1) A whip can't deal damage to an opponent with any armor bonus to her AC nor to anyone with natural armor +3 or higher. Does a magical whip bypass this rule? If not, do the extra damage from the merciful and wounding properties bypass it? No, and no. A magical whip is still a whip, and follows the rules for whips. 2) Does a standard +1 whip deal lethal or non-lethal damage? (a non-magical one deals non-lethal) edit: OR is the 1 point from the +1 property lethal and the rest non-lethal? Non-lethal all the way through. I'd tend to consider extra elemental damage, such as from a Flaming property, as lethal damage, but in fact a Sage Advice answer in Dragon #356 suggests that it's all non-lethal.
spiller 05-26-07, 02:23 PM	OK, thanks for your input, MarkB! I'm still probably going to house-rule that the extra damage is going to bypass the normal damge dealing restrictions of the whip.
Ace_of_time 05-26-07, 08:32 PM	OK, thanks for your input, MarkB! I'm still probably going to house-rule that the extra damage is going to bypass the normal damge dealing restrictions of the whip. Just switch it to whip daggers.
Xykon 05-29-07, 02:15 AM	If you're worried about the non-lethal damage you might want to see if you can maximize the use its Disarm and Trip abilities... On top of this, Ace_of_time's advice seems solid. Although i do not have the 3.5 stats of whip dagger.
mvincent 05-29-07, 12:44 PM	I'd tend to consider extra elemental damage, such as from a Flaming property, as lethal damage, but in fact a Sage Advice answer in Dragon #356 suggests that it's all non-lethal.Yup. There the Sage seems to recommend making it all non-lethal (for simplicity), but he previously said (in the 3.5 FAQ): "a fighter wielding a +1 flaming sword can’t choose for the fire damage to be nonlethal (even if the base weapon damage is nonlethal)."
Ace_of_time 05-29-07, 06:44 PM	I always convert myself. Whip daggers/ small 1d4, med 1d6/ 19-20/times2/ range 15'/ 3lbs. You can make heavier one that add str bonus in like comp bows. Reg cost 25 gps mighty whip draggers go for 225-525 depending on what str bonus you want.
Marcus Majarra 05-30-07, 12:23 PM	I always convert myself. Whip daggers/ small 1d4, med 1d6/ 19-20/times2/ range 15'/ 3lbs. You can make heavier one that add str bonus in like comp bows. Reg cost 25 gps mighty whip draggers go for 225-525 depending on what str bonus you want. I don't think the conversion is so easy. Back in 3.0, I believe regular whips were considered ranged weapons, which isn't the case in 3.5. As it is, you can already apply your Str bonus to damage with a whip.
Ace_of_time 05-30-07, 02:12 PM	I don't think the conversion is so easy. Back in 3.0, I believe regular whips were considered ranged weapons, which isn't the case in 3.5. As it is, you can already apply your Str bonus to damage with a whip. 1. it is treated as ranged weapon for the purpose of AoO. 2. Never seen anything that say you add str mod to damage. Please post where you get that from. 3. It would be easier for him if it did add str bonus then it would only cost 25 gps. That would not change the stats.
mvincent 05-30-07, 02:41 PM	2. Never seen anything that say you add str mod to damage. Please post where you get that from.From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip): "The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach" and (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#strengthStr) " You apply your character’s Strength modifier to: * Melee attack rolls. * Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon"
Marcus Majarra 05-30-07, 04:56 PM	Personally, I believe the whip is good enough to keep without the ability to deal lethal damage. Being able to perform 2-handed trips and disarms at a 15-foot reach is plenty useful. If you want to deal damage, settle for the spiked chain.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 12:49 AM	This is from your link: Whip A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a mêlée weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. Now if you say that it's changed then I have to believe you because I haven't found anything to say different but we have never put str mod on whips before and I didn't think that changed in 3.5.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-31-07, 12:59 AM	Just switch it to whip daggers. Or, if you're the DM, houserule that pointless, inconsistant crap out of your game. No other weapon does this. How in god's name can a punch deal damage normally if a freaking exotic weapon can't?
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 01:03 AM	This was the only thing I could find so i will post it and you can make up your mind. Although it doesn't really say ad str in just you use it two handed. I think I'll house rule it to make sure. Some times I'd just like to see yes or no. Is that so hard. It is from D&D FAQ 3.5 Can you use a whip with two hands, thus gaining 1.5 x Strength bonus? Given that the whip is a one-handed weapon, while it may appear awkward, the rules of the game are clear that this is certainly possible.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 01:05 AM	Or, if you're the DM, houserule that pointless, inconsistant crap out of your game. No other weapon does this. How in god's name can a punch deal damage normally if a freaking exotic weapon can't? Unarm attacks deal lethal damage??????:confused:
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-31-07, 02:49 AM	Unarmed attacks don't deal lethal damage unless you have the feat, however, an unarmed strike deals subdual damage normally, regardless of what armor bonus the target has.
mvincent 05-31-07, 12:32 PM	we have never put str mod on whips before and I didn't think that changed in 3.5.From 3.0 (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html): "Whip: The whip deals subdual damage. It deals no damage to any creature with even a +1 armor bonus or at least a +3 natural armor bonus. Although the whip is kept in hand, treat it as a projectile weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range penalties." This last line is no longer the case in 3.5.
Ace_of_time 05-31-07, 06:04 PM	Just so I don't fight with someone for a page and a half I think that adding in str bonus is a good thing and don't really care if the book says yes or no. I just get tired of the book saying yes and that really meaning no. I just want no to mean no and yes to mean yes.
Marcus Majarra 06-01-07, 12:38 PM	Well, the 3.5 book isn't saying anything particular about whips and Str mod to damage, so they act as any other weapon of that category would. Since it's a one-handed melee weapon, you add your Str bonus to damage rolls with it (or 1.5 x Str bonus when used with two hands). There's no confusion at all here.