Reach, Cover, and Ranks of Attackers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reach, Cover, and Ranks of Attackers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
okaynowa
02-28-07, 04:29 PM Let's say for a moment that in a narrow corridor, I have the following line-up:

Ankheg-->Fighter<--Blink Dog<--Dude w/Reach Weapon<--Otyugh

The ankheg, blink dog, dude, and otyugh are all allies who wish to attack the fighter. The ankheg and dog have no trouble reaching the fighter. Does the blink dog provide any sort of cover against the dude's reach weapon? Do the dog and dude provide any cover against the otyugh's reach tentacles?
Matthew77
02-28-07, 04:43 PM When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

If someone else, either friend or enemy, is standing between you and your target, they get a +4 to AC from having cover.

I would also rule that a very small creature (tiny or smaller) does not provide this cover bonus.
mvincent
02-28-07, 05:12 PM Does the blink dog provide any sort of cover against the dude's reach weapon? Yes. It provides soft cover (I would also consider it low cover as well, not that it matters here).
okaynowa
02-28-07, 05:23 PM Would multiple intervening creatures provide "cumulative cover," or would the fighter in the example merely receive the same +4 AC against the dude's and otyugh's attacks?
Matthew77
02-28-07, 05:27 PM A single +4 regardless of how many intervening creatures.
mvincent
02-28-07, 05:43 PM A single +4 regardless of how many intervening creatures.That is subject to interpretation. More creatures could well provide "improved cover". From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover):
"Varying Degrees of Cover
In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks. "
Nom
02-28-07, 09:47 PM That is subject to interpretation. More creatures could well provide "improved cover".When did two creatures in a 5 ft. x 10 ft. space become equivalent to an arrow slit or similar specialised defensive position?

I might consider it if the target was standing in a tightly packed crowd, but normal combat hardly qualifies.

If you don't know what I'm referring to, check out the actual cover rules on PH pg 151-152 rather than the summary in the SRD.
okaynowa
02-28-07, 10:21 PM Aha! A page citation. I'll be sure to check that.

In the given example, I have a Medium quadruped backed by a Medium biped backed by a Large... otyugh. Theoretically, that's a nice school photo arrangement. I'd like to say they could all reasonably see over each other enough so that only "simple" cover is in effect.

Thanks for the input-- I'll give it further consideration.
Nom
03-01-07, 08:54 AM Tangentially, line of effect for spells is not blocked as long as there is an opening at least 1 ft. square (PH pg 176 or thereabouts). I apply this same rule of thumb to improved cover: if the opening is at least 1 ft. square, then it's just regular cover, not improved cover. Only smaller openings (or equivalent emplaced positions) grant improved cover.
nightwing
03-01-07, 09:06 AM see this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=779145) that I started that may help explain more.
mvincent
03-01-07, 12:30 PM When did two creatures in a 5 ft. x 10 ft. space become equivalent to an arrow slit or similar specialised defensive position?That is not what I said. As a DM I rule that firing through several people gives increased cover. This is supported by the rules, but the actual amount is subjective. One would certainly have a more difficult time hitting the fifth person down a 5' wide hallway (or the fifth rank in a formation). I would view this as improved soft cover (i.e. helps with AC but not reflex saves).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
okaynowa 02-28-07, 04:29 PM	Let's say for a moment that in a narrow corridor, I have the following line-up: Ankheg-->Fighter<--Blink Dog<--Dude w/Reach Weapon<--Otyugh The ankheg, blink dog, dude, and otyugh are all allies who wish to attack the fighter. The ankheg and dog have no trouble reaching the fighter. Does the blink dog provide any sort of cover against the dude's reach weapon? Do the dog and dude provide any cover against the otyugh's reach tentacles?
Matthew77 02-28-07, 04:43 PM	When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks. To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). If someone else, either friend or enemy, is standing between you and your target, they get a +4 to AC from having cover. I would also rule that a very small creature (tiny or smaller) does not provide this cover bonus.
mvincent 02-28-07, 05:12 PM	Does the blink dog provide any sort of cover against the dude's reach weapon? Yes. It provides soft cover (I would also consider it low cover as well, not that it matters here).
okaynowa 02-28-07, 05:23 PM	Would multiple intervening creatures provide "cumulative cover," or would the fighter in the example merely receive the same +4 AC against the dude's and otyugh's attacks?
Matthew77 02-28-07, 05:27 PM	A single +4 regardless of how many intervening creatures.
mvincent 02-28-07, 05:43 PM	A single +4 regardless of how many intervening creatures.That is subject to interpretation. More creatures could well provide "improved cover". From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover): "Varying Degrees of Cover In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks. "
Nom 02-28-07, 09:47 PM	That is subject to interpretation. More creatures could well provide "improved cover".When did two creatures in a 5 ft. x 10 ft. space become equivalent to an arrow slit or similar specialised defensive position? I might consider it if the target was standing in a tightly packed crowd, but normal combat hardly qualifies. If you don't know what I'm referring to, check out the actual cover rules on PH pg 151-152 rather than the summary in the SRD.
okaynowa 02-28-07, 10:21 PM	Aha! A page citation. I'll be sure to check that. In the given example, I have a Medium quadruped backed by a Medium biped backed by a Large... otyugh. Theoretically, that's a nice school photo arrangement. I'd like to say they could all reasonably see over each other enough so that only "simple" cover is in effect. Thanks for the input-- I'll give it further consideration.
Nom 03-01-07, 08:54 AM	Tangentially, line of effect for spells is not blocked as long as there is an opening at least 1 ft. square (PH pg 176 or thereabouts). I apply this same rule of thumb to improved cover: if the opening is at least 1 ft. square, then it's just regular cover, not improved cover. Only smaller openings (or equivalent emplaced positions) grant improved cover.
nightwing 03-01-07, 09:06 AM	see this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=779145) that I started that may help explain more.
mvincent 03-01-07, 12:30 PM	When did two creatures in a 5 ft. x 10 ft. space become equivalent to an arrow slit or similar specialised defensive position?That is not what I said. As a DM I rule that firing through several people gives increased cover. This is supported by the rules, but the actual amount is subjective. One would certainly have a more difficult time hitting the fifth person down a 5' wide hallway (or the fifth rank in a formation). I would view this as improved soft cover (i.e. helps with AC but not reflex saves).