Readied action and Flat-footed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Readied action and Flat-footed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 06:20 AM In the last session of my campaign one of the PC's readied an action against a NPC (wording was along the lines of: "if he attacks I attack") which a few rounds later used a skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel) which let him draw a hidden weapon as a move action and rendered the PC flat-footed.

However, players were arguing about this. I ruled that attacks happened simultaneously with the attack of the NPC happening only a part of the second earlier.

After the session I thought about this a little and reached the conclusion that the PC had no reason to interrupt the attack of the NPC with his readied action since being flat-footed meant he was unaware of the attack.

How would you deal with the same situation?
Marcus Majarra
11-20-07, 09:17 AM His readied action takes precedence, regardless of being flat-footed. Nothing prevents a character from readying or taking readied actions while flat-footed.
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 09:29 AM OOC he knows the NPC is attacking him but in character he doesn't. Isn't that the idea of being flat-footed?
Zinger2099
11-20-07, 09:36 AM No. Being Flat-Footed does not mean you are unaware of the incoming attack, it means you are unable to properly react to being attacked. A Fighter who has been struck by a tanglefoot bag, for example, is well aware of the fact that the Rogue is about to stab him with a dagger, but he can't maneuver to dodge the blow. Thus he is Flat-Footed.

And before you say anything, yes, I know tanglefoot bags don't actually cause it's victim to become Flat-Footed, and only imposes a -2 to Attack and -4 to Dex. I was just using it as an example, and couldn't think of anything offhand to make the Fighter Flat-Footed. But you get the point.

In the same manner, your character couldn't react to the attack properly because he wasn't expecting the character to pull a knife on him from his sleeve.

That being said, while yes, he would be denied any and all Attacks of Opportunity he could make while Flat-Footed, it doesn't stop him from pulling a Readied Action. The Attack that he Readied against the NPC is NOT an Attack of Opportunity. Essentially, it is merely your character's Standard Action from his turn, which he delayed taking until right before the NPC attacked him.

Hope that clears things up.
Merestil Haye
11-20-07, 09:41 AM I agree.

A character is normally flat-footed prior to taking his first action in a combat. The consequences of being flat-footed are that you are denied Dex bonus (if any) to AC and you cannot take AoOs.

Normally a flat-footed creature cannot take a readied action by virtue of not having had a chance to ready an action, since readying is itself an action. Thus normally this is not a concern.

However if (as in this case) you already have readied an action, since the effect of the trick does not say you lose the readied action, you do not lose the action. Consequently the character can attack the NPC before he gets the attack off by taking his readied action.

It's arguable that this could take you out of the flat-footed condition as well, since you've taken an action. I think I'd rule in the attacker's favour here though since the condition is imposed for a specific duration.
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 10:08 AM No. Being Flat-Footed does not mean you are unaware of the incoming attack, it means you are unable to properly react to being attacked.

When somebody hides and snipes from hiding is the target (which is flat-footed) aware of the incoming attack? No, he doesn't know about it and that's the reason for being flat-footed. I assumed the same logic in this case. If the NPC has feinted successfully and rendered the PC flat-footed I would have allowed the readied action to take place as normal but in this case he pulls the weapon out of his sleeve and attacks instantaneously, therefore my ruling.
Zinger2099
11-20-07, 10:23 AM When somebody hides and snipes from hiding is the target (which is flat-footed) aware of the incoming attack? No, he doesn't know about it and that's the reason for being flat-footed. I assumed the same logic in this case. If the NPC has feinted successfully and rendered the PC flat-footed I would have allowed the readied action to take place as normal but in this case he pulls the weapon out of his sleeve and attacks instantaneously, therefore my ruling.

Being unaware of your attacker grants your attacker a surprise round in combat. Yes, if you are unaware of an incoming attack, you are Flat-Footed to it, because you can't react to said attack. That being said, the opposite isn't always true. Being Flat-Footed doesn't mean you are unaware, but being unaware does mean you are Flat-Footed.

In your scenario, the attacker is pulling out the dagger from his sleeve right in front of the player. The player can see it happening, and is well aware of the fact that the NPC is pulling out a dagger and swinging at him. The player can't properly react to it, because it was unexpected, but he wasn't unaware of the attack. He is Flat-Footed, but he is also aware, and as such, I would let him take his readied action. I wouldn't let the readied attack inerupt the NPC's attack though, and the player would still be Flat-Footed, so his AC should be easier to hit and if there was any sneak damage involved it would apply.
nightwing
11-20-07, 11:31 AM from PHB page 160:

"[specify an action and and the conditions for taking that action]...Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

A move action is not an attack, so the opponent can do his maneuver as a move action without triggering the readied attack. Suppose he succeeds in making the character flat-footed, or "especially vulnerable to attacks" (PHB, page 308). Then the opponent goes to attack the character with his standard action for the round. THAT'S an attack. So the readied action interrupts it. The readied character makes his attack first. If the opponent is still alive and in the mood to fight after that, he may make his attack against the character's flat-footed AC.
Merestil Haye
11-20-07, 01:07 PM When somebody hides and snipes from hiding is the target (which is flat-footed) aware of the incoming attack? No, he doesn't know about it and that's the reason for being flat-footed.Sorry but that is wrong.

The target is flat-footed if he has not acted yet in the combat. If he has acted, he is not flat-footed.

If the target cannot see the attacker, he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. That is not the same as being flat-footed and you shouldn't confuse them. The two conditions are indistinguishable for the sniper; however if the target has a reach weapon a rogue trying to close to melee thinking his opponent is flat-footed is in for a painful lesson.
irdeggman
11-21-07, 05:26 PM Sorry but that is wrong.

The target is flat-footed if he has not acted yet in the combat. If he has acted, he is not flat-footed.

If the target cannot see the attacker, he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. That is not the same as being flat-footed and you shouldn't confuse them. The two conditions are indistinguishable for the sniper; however if the target has a reach weapon a rogue trying to close to melee thinking his opponent is flat-footed is in for a painful lesson.

From the rules compendium.

"If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."

It is unfortunate that WotC uses flat-footed at times other than the beginning of combat - it only mucks things up IMO.

But because they call it flat-footed then that means the "target" can't do certain things that are forbidden when flat-footed (like immediate actions or AoO) - even if they only apply to the one that is "hidden".

Man - that gets confusing.
Zinger2099
11-21-07, 06:47 PM From the rules compendium.

"If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."

It is unfortunate that WotC uses flat-footed at times other than the beginning of combat - it only mucks things up IMO.

But because they call it flat-footed then that means the "target" can't do certain things that are forbidden when flat-footed (like immediate actions or AoO) - even if they only apply to the one that is "hidden".

Man - that gets confusing.

Yeah, but if a sneaky rogue couldn't hide to do sneak attack damage, then what's even the point of a sneaky rogue, just run up and flank.

I understand why hidden foes and invisible foes treat their targets as flat-footed. It makes sense.
PhaedrusXY
11-21-07, 06:53 PM From the rules compendium.

"If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."That "clarification" is wrong, then. This doesn't surprize me. They screw up their own rules all the time, especially when they're trying to "clarify" them, it seems.

A defender loses his dex bonus to AC vs. a hidden attacker. He is not (necessarily) flat-footed. Flat-footed is a totally separate condition. One of the consequences of being flat-footed is losing your Dex to AC, but they are not the same thing.
Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
If the attacker is invisible, there is a table that says this: The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded. Flat-footed is not the same thing as "denied Dex mod to AC".
Merestil Haye
11-21-07, 06:53 PM From the rules compendium.

"If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."The RC is saying there that the target is denied its Dex bonus to AC, and cannot take AoOs, against the sniper, and then only so long as the sniper remains hidden. It's not saying the target becomes generally flat-footed, because he does not.

This does mean that he can't take AoOs against the sniper (aagain, so long as the sniper keeps winning the opposed check that follows the shot).

Have you got a page reference? (It saves me looking it up.)

It is unfortunate that WotC uses flat-footed at times other than the beginning of combat - it only mucks things up IMO.Agreed.

But since, as your quote says, he is flat-footed only wrt the sniper, he can take immediate actions - just not ones responding to an attack roll by the sniper. If (for example) he was a cleric with Close Wounds prepared, he could cast the spell after being struck by the sniper's arrow.
Marcus Majarra
11-21-07, 08:21 PM That "clarification" is wrong, then. This doesn't surprize me. They screw up their own rules all the time, especially when they're trying to "clarify" them, it seems.

A defender loses his dex bonus to AC vs. a hidden attacker. He is not (necessarily) flat-footed. Flat-footed is a totally separate condition. One of the consequences of being flat-footed is losing your Dex to AC, but they are not the same thing.
Technically, that clarification isn't wrong, since the rules don't go too much into the details of the consequences of hiding. Nothing in the Hide description states that you should even deny an opponent his Dex bonus to AC for being attacked by you while you're hiding. In this respect, I think they correctly filled in the blanks.

Furthermore, while the definition of flat-footed you quoted from the DMG is real, it is by no means exclusive of all conditions that might result in someone being flat-footed. For example, PHB p67 indicates that balancing characters with less than 5 ranks in Balance are considered flat-footed while balancing.

This said, it's a good catch on WotC's part.
Merestil Haye
11-21-07, 08:59 PM Another issue is that if the Rules Compendium contradicts another book, even a core book, the RC is presumed to be the correct rule. So if the RC says the target is flatfooted, it is.

Just incidentally, flat-footed means two things; denied Dex mod to AC and unable to execute AoOs against the provoking creature. A creature is denied any Dex bonus to AC against an invisible creature, and is unable to take an AoO should the invisible creature provoke one. So functionally, the target is flatfooted against a creature that is hiding from it.
PhaedrusXY
11-21-07, 09:47 PM Another issue is that if the Rules Compendium contradicts another book, even a core book, the RC is presumed to be the correct rule. So if the RC says the target is flatfooted, it is.I don't own the book, don't plan on buying it, and don't really care what it says. Why would I pay for Errata? Especially when a new edition is coming out that will make it irrelevant in a few months, anyway. The entire idea of this book is annoying.
Technically, that clarification isn't wrong, since the rules don't go too much into the details of the consequences of hiding. Nothing in the Hide description states that you should even deny an opponent his Dex bonus to AC for being attacked by you while you're hiding. In this respect, I think they correctly filled in the blanks.Everyone and their mother has always played that hiding = invisible, anyway, as you indicate with your "fill in the blanks" comment. Yeah, I guess if it makes people feel better to have it in writing, then this is a good book for them to buy. I think most people could care less, because they were already ruling this way, anyway. Heck, even Living Greyhawk rules it like this, don't they?

I do see that perhaps this is the correct ruling, though, since it does make sense that you shouldn't be able to execute an AoO against someone that is hidden from you. Usually, the hiding person would also have concealment or cover, but with abilities like HiPS this might not always be the case. I doubt any DM would have let someone make an AoO on an enemy they couldn't even see in the first place, though. And just stating that hiding = invisible would have also fixed that problem.
irdeggman
11-21-07, 10:34 PM Have you got a page reference? (It saves me looking it up.)

pg 92
irdeggman
11-21-07, 10:41 PM Also when you are flat-footed you can't execute an immediate action.

So in this case you couldn't use an immediate action against the person who is hidden from you.

There are other things that flat-footed has a bearing on too not just not being able to make an AoO.

In general being invisible is better, but there are things that being flat-footed applies to that being invisible does not.
weasel0
11-22-07, 12:46 AM wording was along the lines of: "if he attacks I attack" And if this was the working, tell him he needs to work on his wording. He should have stated, "If he goes to attack me, I attack him first." And yes I know that this would be obnoxious. But if the players are already waiting to pounce on every mis-worded ruling of the DM, turn-about is fair play. Either way, he's got to see the attack coming to get his attack. He can't "ready" vrs something he doesn't/can't see coming. Well, technically he can, but it's a waste.
Fitz10019
11-26-07, 05:11 PM Readying can only occur "during combat" (p. 160, intro sentence, Special Initiative Actions, PHB). If the characters are acting in initiative, then the player would have readied his action during his turn, and having had his turn, he would not be flat-footed. If the situation was a conversation, without initiative established, then there is no readying. Saying, "I ready to attack if he attacks" would only be flavor. You could give a circumstance bonus to his next Spot check to avoid being surprised, but he would not get an attack.

No readying outside of combat.

The example ready about someone coming through a door leads many folks to think you can ready an action at any time, but you cannot. Readying only applies in active combat, not imminent combat.

No readying outside of combat.
PhaedrusXY
11-26-07, 05:18 PM Readying can only occur "during combat" (p. 160, intro sentence, Special Initiative Actions, PHB). If the characters are acting in initiative, then the player would have readied his action during his turn, and having had his turn, he would not be flat-footed. If the situation was a conversation, without initiative established, then there is no readying. Saying, "I ready to attack if he attacks" would only be flavor. You could give a circumstance bonus to his next Spot check to avoid being surprised, but he would not get an attack.

No readying outside of combat.

The example ready about someone coming through a door leads many folks to think you can ready an action at any time, but you cannot. Readying only applies in active combat, not imminent combat.

No readying outside of combat.You failed your reading comprehension check. The NPC has an ability to make someone flat-footed after combat has started.
Toki_Wartooth
11-26-07, 07:30 PM That "clarification" is wrong, then. This doesn't surprize me. They screw up their own rules all the time, especially when they're trying to "clarify" them, it seems.Semantically, you are correct. However, enough writer's have mistakenly used "Flat-footed" in place of "losing dex to AC"* that the term is now essentially interchangeable (similar to how the semantics for "ironic" has been altered IRL).

* Likely because "Flat-footed AC" is used at these times.

Of course, the Rules Compendium seems to have enough *other* errors that I have difficulty in assuming any of its clarifications are correct.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 06:20 AM	In the last session of my campaign one of the PC's readied an action against a NPC (wording was along the lines of: "if he attacks I attack") which a few rounds later used a skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel) which let him draw a hidden weapon as a move action and rendered the PC flat-footed. However, players were arguing about this. I ruled that attacks happened simultaneously with the attack of the NPC happening only a part of the second earlier. After the session I thought about this a little and reached the conclusion that the PC had no reason to interrupt the attack of the NPC with his readied action since being flat-footed meant he was unaware of the attack. How would you deal with the same situation?
Marcus Majarra 11-20-07, 09:17 AM	His readied action takes precedence, regardless of being flat-footed. Nothing prevents a character from readying or taking readied actions while flat-footed.
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 09:29 AM	OOC he knows the NPC is attacking him but in character he doesn't. Isn't that the idea of being flat-footed?
Zinger2099 11-20-07, 09:36 AM	No. Being Flat-Footed does not mean you are unaware of the incoming attack, it means you are unable to properly react to being attacked. A Fighter who has been struck by a tanglefoot bag, for example, is well aware of the fact that the Rogue is about to stab him with a dagger, but he can't maneuver to dodge the blow. Thus he is Flat-Footed. And before you say anything, yes, I know tanglefoot bags don't actually cause it's victim to become Flat-Footed, and only imposes a -2 to Attack and -4 to Dex. I was just using it as an example, and couldn't think of anything offhand to make the Fighter Flat-Footed. But you get the point. In the same manner, your character couldn't react to the attack properly because he wasn't expecting the character to pull a knife on him from his sleeve. That being said, while yes, he would be denied any and all Attacks of Opportunity he could make while Flat-Footed, it doesn't stop him from pulling a Readied Action. The Attack that he Readied against the NPC is NOT an Attack of Opportunity. Essentially, it is merely your character's Standard Action from his turn, which he delayed taking until right before the NPC attacked him. Hope that clears things up.
Merestil Haye 11-20-07, 09:41 AM	I agree. A character is normally flat-footed prior to taking his first action in a combat. The consequences of being flat-footed are that you are denied Dex bonus (if any) to AC and you cannot take AoOs. Normally a flat-footed creature cannot take a readied action by virtue of not having had a chance to ready an action, since readying is itself an action. Thus normally this is not a concern. However if (as in this case) you already have readied an action, since the effect of the trick does not say you lose the readied action, you do not lose the action. Consequently the character can attack the NPC before he gets the attack off by taking his readied action. It's arguable that this could take you out of the flat-footed condition as well, since you've taken an action. I think I'd rule in the attacker's favour here though since the condition is imposed for a specific duration.
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 10:08 AM	No. Being Flat-Footed does not mean you are unaware of the incoming attack, it means you are unable to properly react to being attacked. When somebody hides and snipes from hiding is the target (which is flat-footed) aware of the incoming attack? No, he doesn't know about it and that's the reason for being flat-footed. I assumed the same logic in this case. If the NPC has feinted successfully and rendered the PC flat-footed I would have allowed the readied action to take place as normal but in this case he pulls the weapon out of his sleeve and attacks instantaneously, therefore my ruling.
Zinger2099 11-20-07, 10:23 AM	When somebody hides and snipes from hiding is the target (which is flat-footed) aware of the incoming attack? No, he doesn't know about it and that's the reason for being flat-footed. I assumed the same logic in this case. If the NPC has feinted successfully and rendered the PC flat-footed I would have allowed the readied action to take place as normal but in this case he pulls the weapon out of his sleeve and attacks instantaneously, therefore my ruling. Being unaware of your attacker grants your attacker a surprise round in combat. Yes, if you are unaware of an incoming attack, you are Flat-Footed to it, because you can't react to said attack. That being said, the opposite isn't always true. Being Flat-Footed doesn't mean you are unaware, but being unaware does mean you are Flat-Footed. In your scenario, the attacker is pulling out the dagger from his sleeve right in front of the player. The player can see it happening, and is well aware of the fact that the NPC is pulling out a dagger and swinging at him. The player can't properly react to it, because it was unexpected, but he wasn't unaware of the attack. He is Flat-Footed, but he is also aware, and as such, I would let him take his readied action. I wouldn't let the readied attack inerupt the NPC's attack though, and the player would still be Flat-Footed, so his AC should be easier to hit and if there was any sneak damage involved it would apply.
nightwing 11-20-07, 11:31 AM	from PHB page 160: "[specify an action and and the conditions for taking that action]...Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." A move action is not an attack, so the opponent can do his maneuver as a move action without triggering the readied attack. Suppose he succeeds in making the character flat-footed, or "especially vulnerable to attacks" (PHB, page 308). Then the opponent goes to attack the character with his standard action for the round. THAT'S an attack. So the readied action interrupts it. The readied character makes his attack first. If the opponent is still alive and in the mood to fight after that, he may make his attack against the character's flat-footed AC.
Merestil Haye 11-20-07, 01:07 PM	When somebody hides and snipes from hiding is the target (which is flat-footed) aware of the incoming attack? No, he doesn't know about it and that's the reason for being flat-footed.Sorry but that is wrong. The target is flat-footed if he has not acted yet in the combat. If he has acted, he is not flat-footed. If the target cannot see the attacker, he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. That is not the same as being flat-footed and you shouldn't confuse them. The two conditions are indistinguishable for the sniper; however if the target has a reach weapon a rogue trying to close to melee thinking his opponent is flat-footed is in for a painful lesson.
irdeggman 11-21-07, 05:26 PM	Sorry but that is wrong. The target is flat-footed if he has not acted yet in the combat. If he has acted, he is not flat-footed. If the target cannot see the attacker, he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. That is not the same as being flat-footed and you shouldn't confuse them. The two conditions are indistinguishable for the sniper; however if the target has a reach weapon a rogue trying to close to melee thinking his opponent is flat-footed is in for a painful lesson. From the rules compendium. "If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible." It is unfortunate that WotC uses flat-footed at times other than the beginning of combat - it only mucks things up IMO. But because they call it flat-footed then that means the "target" can't do certain things that are forbidden when flat-footed (like immediate actions or AoO) - even if they only apply to the one that is "hidden". Man - that gets confusing.
Zinger2099 11-21-07, 06:47 PM	From the rules compendium. "If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible." It is unfortunate that WotC uses flat-footed at times other than the beginning of combat - it only mucks things up IMO. But because they call it flat-footed then that means the "target" can't do certain things that are forbidden when flat-footed (like immediate actions or AoO) - even if they only apply to the one that is "hidden". Man - that gets confusing. Yeah, but if a sneaky rogue couldn't hide to do sneak attack damage, then what's even the point of a sneaky rogue, just run up and flank. I understand why hidden foes and invisible foes treat their targets as flat-footed. It makes sense.
PhaedrusXY 11-21-07, 06:53 PM	From the rules compendium. "If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."That "clarification" is wrong, then. This doesn't surprize me. They screw up their own rules all the time, especially when they're trying to "clarify" them, it seems. A defender loses his dex bonus to AC vs. a hidden attacker. He is not (necessarily) flat-footed. Flat-footed is a totally separate condition. One of the consequences of being flat-footed is losing your Dex to AC, but they are not the same thing. Flat-Footed A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. If the attacker is invisible, there is a table that says this: The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded. Flat-footed is not the same thing as "denied Dex mod to AC".
Merestil Haye 11-21-07, 06:53 PM	From the rules compendium. "If you're successfully hidden with respect to another creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That creature treats you as if you were invisible."The RC is saying there that the target is denied its Dex bonus to AC, and cannot take AoOs, against the sniper, and then only so long as the sniper remains hidden. It's not saying the target becomes generally flat-footed, because he does not. This does mean that he can't take AoOs against the sniper (aagain, so long as the sniper keeps winning the opposed check that follows the shot). Have you got a page reference? (It saves me looking it up.) It is unfortunate that WotC uses flat-footed at times other than the beginning of combat - it only mucks things up IMO.Agreed. But since, as your quote says, he is flat-footed only wrt the sniper, he can take immediate actions - just not ones responding to an attack roll by the sniper. If (for example) he was a cleric with Close Wounds prepared, he could cast the spell after being struck by the sniper's arrow.
Marcus Majarra 11-21-07, 08:21 PM	That "clarification" is wrong, then. This doesn't surprize me. They screw up their own rules all the time, especially when they're trying to "clarify" them, it seems. A defender loses his dex bonus to AC vs. a hidden attacker. He is not (necessarily) flat-footed. Flat-footed is a totally separate condition. One of the consequences of being flat-footed is losing your Dex to AC, but they are not the same thing. Technically, that clarification isn't wrong, since the rules don't go too much into the details of the consequences of hiding. Nothing in the Hide description states that you should even deny an opponent his Dex bonus to AC for being attacked by you while you're hiding. In this respect, I think they correctly filled in the blanks. Furthermore, while the definition of flat-footed you quoted from the DMG is real, it is by no means exclusive of all conditions that might result in someone being flat-footed. For example, PHB p67 indicates that balancing characters with less than 5 ranks in Balance are considered flat-footed while balancing. This said, it's a good catch on WotC's part.
Merestil Haye 11-21-07, 08:59 PM	Another issue is that if the Rules Compendium contradicts another book, even a core book, the RC is presumed to be the correct rule. So if the RC says the target is flatfooted, it is. Just incidentally, flat-footed means two things; denied Dex mod to AC and unable to execute AoOs against the provoking creature. A creature is denied any Dex bonus to AC against an invisible creature, and is unable to take an AoO should the invisible creature provoke one. So functionally, the target is flatfooted against a creature that is hiding from it.
PhaedrusXY 11-21-07, 09:47 PM	Another issue is that if the Rules Compendium contradicts another book, even a core book, the RC is presumed to be the correct rule. So if the RC says the target is flatfooted, it is.I don't own the book, don't plan on buying it, and don't really care what it says. Why would I pay for Errata? Especially when a new edition is coming out that will make it irrelevant in a few months, anyway. The entire idea of this book is annoying. Technically, that clarification isn't wrong, since the rules don't go too much into the details of the consequences of hiding. Nothing in the Hide description states that you should even deny an opponent his Dex bonus to AC for being attacked by you while you're hiding. In this respect, I think they correctly filled in the blanks.Everyone and their mother has always played that hiding = invisible, anyway, as you indicate with your "fill in the blanks" comment. Yeah, I guess if it makes people feel better to have it in writing, then this is a good book for them to buy. I think most people could care less, because they were already ruling this way, anyway. Heck, even Living Greyhawk rules it like this, don't they? I do see that perhaps this is the correct ruling, though, since it does make sense that you shouldn't be able to execute an AoO against someone that is hidden from you. Usually, the hiding person would also have concealment or cover, but with abilities like HiPS this might not always be the case. I doubt any DM would have let someone make an AoO on an enemy they couldn't even see in the first place, though. And just stating that hiding = invisible would have also fixed that problem.
irdeggman 11-21-07, 10:34 PM	Have you got a page reference? (It saves me looking it up.) pg 92
irdeggman 11-21-07, 10:41 PM	Also when you are flat-footed you can't execute an immediate action. So in this case you couldn't use an immediate action against the person who is hidden from you. There are other things that flat-footed has a bearing on too not just not being able to make an AoO. In general being invisible is better, but there are things that being flat-footed applies to that being invisible does not.
weasel0 11-22-07, 12:46 AM	wording was along the lines of: "if he attacks I attack" And if this was the working, tell him he needs to work on his wording. He should have stated, "If he goes to attack me, I attack him first." And yes I know that this would be obnoxious. But if the players are already waiting to pounce on every mis-worded ruling of the DM, turn-about is fair play. Either way, he's got to see the attack coming to get his attack. He can't "ready" vrs something he doesn't/can't see coming. Well, technically he can, but it's a waste.
Fitz10019 11-26-07, 05:11 PM	Readying can only occur "during combat" (p. 160, intro sentence, Special Initiative Actions, PHB). If the characters are acting in initiative, then the player would have readied his action during his turn, and having had his turn, he would not be flat-footed. If the situation was a conversation, without initiative established, then there is no readying. Saying, "I ready to attack if he attacks" would only be flavor. You could give a circumstance bonus to his next Spot check to avoid being surprised, but he would not get an attack. No readying outside of combat. The example ready about someone coming through a door leads many folks to think you can ready an action at any time, but you cannot. Readying only applies in active combat, not imminent combat. No readying outside of combat.
PhaedrusXY 11-26-07, 05:18 PM	Readying can only occur "during combat" (p. 160, intro sentence, Special Initiative Actions, PHB). If the characters are acting in initiative, then the player would have readied his action during his turn, and having had his turn, he would not be flat-footed. If the situation was a conversation, without initiative established, then there is no readying. Saying, "I ready to attack if he attacks" would only be flavor. You could give a circumstance bonus to his next Spot check to avoid being surprised, but he would not get an attack. No readying outside of combat. The example ready about someone coming through a door leads many folks to think you can ready an action at any time, but you cannot. Readying only applies in active combat, not imminent combat. No readying outside of combat.You failed your reading comprehension check. The NPC has an ability to make someone flat-footed after combat has started.
Toki_Wartooth 11-26-07, 07:30 PM	That "clarification" is wrong, then. This doesn't surprize me. They screw up their own rules all the time, especially when they're trying to "clarify" them, it seems.Semantically, you are correct. However, enough writer's have mistakenly used "Flat-footed" in place of "losing dex to AC"* that the term is now essentially interchangeable (similar to how the semantics for "ironic" has been altered IRL). * Likely because "Flat-footed AC" is used at these times. Of course, the Rules Compendium seems to have enough other errors that I have difficulty in assuming any of its clarifications are correct.