Post/Author/DateTime	Post
moodygnome 07-28-07, 03:02 PM	Having a struggle with my players around a rule I can't clarify. They insist that it's OK to ready an action as a standard action (such as, I fire my crossbow at the first enemy I see), THEN to take a move action, move into a space where they can see the enemy and squeeze a shot off. My interpretation of the rules is that once you ready an action, your turn is over until your readied action is activated by whatever you've chosen as the trigger- but I can't find that anywhere in the rules. I'm I right, or are my players right? They are abusing this like crazy! :confused:
PenderGrass 07-28-07, 03:44 PM	They insist that it's OK to ready an action as a standard action (such as, I fire my crossbow at the first enemy I see), THEN to take a move action, move into a space where they can see the enemy and squeeze a shot off. How is this a bad thing? It boils down to the same thing as moving and firing - in fact, it is the same thing. :dragon: ****
calronmoonflower 07-28-07, 04:26 PM	??? If you are saying that they are trying to shoot in the middle of the move action then I see what you are saying, other wise it is works just fineas said above. You cannot use a readied action to move, shoot, and move again. That would be abuse.
Molitor 07-28-07, 07:57 PM	Don't forget taking the 'ready' and 'delay' actions slows your initiative by -2 for the next round.
StevenO 07-28-07, 09:20 PM	Don't forget taking the 'ready' and 'delay' actions slows your initiative by -2 for the next round. In what book does that come from? Ready lowers your initiative to the count that triggers the action with you going first at that count. Delay simply lowers your initiative until you decide to act although you can't interupt with it. For the OP is sound like someone hasn't quite got the concept down. What is described is simply a move and shoot (provided the crossbow was previously loaded). Now if the character tries to get a shot off DURING the move that would require the Shoot on the Run feat. It sounds like you have the right idea but what was originally posted isn't really a rule violation as a poor understanding. Are there more examples of how your players are abusing readied actions?
trapspringer 07-28-07, 09:34 PM	Ready lowers your initiative to the count that triggers the action with you going first at that count. Delay simply lowers your initiative until you decide to act although you can't interrupt with it. Affirmative. Readying an action as described isn't abusive, it's just superfluous. They could as easily move and shoot as ready an action to shoot and then move. I've gotta' read up on it, but it would make sense that your turn would end when you ready an action. Otherwise it would be possible for two actions to trigger simultaneously and I don't recall a rule for adjudicating that (although an initiative roll would get it done).
jaspercrey 07-28-07, 09:54 PM	Having a struggle with my players around a rule I can't clarify. They insist that it's OK to ready an action as a standard action (such as, I fire my crossbow at the first enemy I see), THEN to take a move action, move into a space where they can see the enemy and squeeze a shot off. We have been doing it like this: We allow a player to make a move equivolent and then ready . . . But if the player opts not to make a move action, he/she may still only preform a single standard action once the triggering conditions have been met. If absolutely no movement takes place prior to the triggering condition, we allow the "readier" to make a 5' adjustmust. In other words, you can move before the readied action but not after (unless you just doing a 5' adjustment).
Kouk 07-29-07, 08:33 AM	Well, I don't know. The rules seem pretty clear on this. I would say you can take your Move action, and then Ready an action, but not declare you are readying an action and then moving with your Move action before ending your turn. But why couldn't the character take his Move first, and then Ready? Seems like the same thing so I would assume that is what was meant. You can make a 5' step as part of your Readied action if you haven't used your Move action to move, that is the only reason to forgo your Move action for movement (feel free to draw a weapon or whatever before you Ready). You can Ready an action to disrupt a spellcaster when he starts casting, and if you haven't already moved some distance you can 5' after him if he takes a 5' step back before casting, but that's about it. So, you are correct Jaspercrey. I don't know how one could abuse Readied actions though, your example makes no sense as to where something wrong is being done.
Leonis472 07-29-07, 05:18 PM	It seems to me to be all about timing. Remember that this is supposed to represent a real-time frame of six seconds. According to my understanding of the rules, it seems one could move, and, as one is moving, take the action which was readied. This translates to moving and attacking, which cannot be done without Shot on the Run. To comply with this, you could move and then stop movement if your readied action is triggered. Since your turn in a round is your specific action in a six-second frame of time, theoretically, you're still moving your speed and haven't really reached your destination by the end of your game-time turn. Say there are only two people fighting, a ranger and a sorcerer. The sorcerer goes first, his player saying, "I ready my action: To cast a Ray of Flame spell if I see the arrow leave his bow, or if he moves five feet toward me. To the ranger I say, 'This is your final warning! Drop your bow.' I also want to move from here to here." The ranger fires his bow on his turn, triggering the readied spell. (Since the attacks fire at the same time, no Concentration check, and since the only way to know he attacked with an arrow is to see it leave the bow, the shot still fires.) Theoretically, the sorcerer was still moving, so a DM could rule he makes it halfway between his starting point and intended destination, so fifteen feet between. This complies with Shot on the Run and the rules it's based on, as he took the equivalent action of moving half his speed and making an attack. If he had Shot on the Run, he could've kept on walking. If the readied attack was not triggered, he would've taken the equivalent action of having moved his speed and not taking a standard action. Make sense to anyone else but me? :)
Leonis472 07-29-07, 05:39 PM	Determining how far he moves becomes more difficult with more participants, NPC and PC alike. If no one interferes with his readied action (such as by moving between the sorcerer and his ranger target) or his own movement (by standing in his path, things should go without a hitch. He may have to lose his action if his shot is blocked, or if he is attacked by a nearby enemy he may have to make a Concentration check to avoid losing his action but not his spell, as his concentration on the enemy is interrupted, and his concentration on the casting of his spell. If he passes that check he keeps his action, but if he is in a position to provoke an attack of opportunity he would have to make another if he decides to go through with taking his readied action (casting a ray spell), since receiving damage or dodging it would endanger such a thing. He also should not be able to take a five foot step, as the triggering of his readied action happens to quickly for him to do anything but perform the action he readied, whether or not he's casting a spell within melee range. He could decide forfeit the action, though. This whole mess is just my take if it ever comes up.
Marcus Majarra 07-29-07, 11:02 PM	Having a struggle with my players around a rule I can't clarify. They insist that it's OK to ready an action as a standard action (such as, I fire my crossbow at the first enemy I see), THEN to take a move action, move into a space where they can see the enemy and squeeze a shot off. My interpretation of the rules is that once you ready an action, your turn is over until your readied action is activated by whatever you've chosen as the trigger- but I can't find that anywhere in the rules. I'm I right, or are my players right? They are abusing this like crazy! Actually, your players are correct. PHB160 states that "readying is a standard action." As such, it can be taken at any point where you're allowed to take a standard action. In essence, readying before performing your other actions in the round will be of no consequence, unless you're readying yourself against an action that can interrupt the flow of your turn. Otherwise, readying before or after your other actions will make no difference.
Anathema 07-30-07, 03:10 AM	I too am failing to see why this is a necessary, or even a beneficial, action. Are there any other examples of why you feel this is abusive?
eamon 07-30-07, 06:33 AM	I don't see how this is better (only worse) than just moving, and then, if you see an opponent, firing, and if you don't, readying an action to do so. It's worse, because if you ready right away you don't have a chance to not fire if the opponent isn't what you expect. This could be an issue if the opponent is actually a huge dragon and running would be a better option, or if the opponent isn't actually hostile and you fire accidentally (you're not simply allowed not to fire once you've set the triggering conditions - at least not automatically).
Coldkilla 07-30-07, 12:10 PM	moodygnome, can you clarify something? Are you saying that your player readies an action to move into position AND attack? I.e, his turn comes up, he says he readies to fire at first opponent he sees, then others take their turns until an opponent becomes visible to the readied PC, then the PC takes a move action and a standard attack on this new initiative count? Or are you saying the player declares a readied attack, then uses his move action on his normal initiative count, then others take their turns until an opponent becomes visible to the readied PC, then the PC takes his standard attack on the new initiative count? The 1st scenario does not follow the rules and should not be allowed. The 2nd one sort of does, but is goofy in that, as someone pointed out, it removes the option for the player to do anything else after the move but to sit and wait for the trigger. The PC should simply move first, then decide to ready an attack or do something else, depending on circumstances.
Edymnion 07-30-07, 12:19 PM	It should be fine. Like the others have said, you still only get 1 move action and 1 standard action, and you can only ready a standard action. So, you could ready "shoot the first thing that comes around the corner" and then take a move back out of the way if you wanted. But you can still only ready a single action, either a move or a single attack, not both.
Empiro 07-30-07, 03:52 PM	I believe the original poster is referring to the following situation where the PCs are using readied actions to simulate feats like Shot on the Run, by doing the following: You say, "I ready to shoot the first enemy I see" while you're behind a wall (and you know there's someone on the other side), then you move out of the wall, see the enemy, shoot, and use the rest of your move action to move back behind the wall. There's several ways you can handle this. The first is simply to point out that it's against the spirit of the rules, as it renders things like Fly-by-Attack, Shot-on-the-Run completely useless, and makes things like Spring Attack almost useless. The second is to point out that under a strict reading of the Ready action, it says the following: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." (Highlight mine). Therefore, your players cannot trigger their readied action during their turn.
moodygnome 07-30-07, 06:33 PM	Hmm... I think the argument began (the first time of many) when a PC said "I ready an action to fire my crossbow bolt", and then moved into a position where Creatures were waiting in ambush. It was a good move, but there was no initiative set yet, as player were unaware, (but suspecting) the ambush. Then they moved, and demanded that when the monster came into sight, that they had the first shot. I think there are a number of ways to handle this: 1) have them roll initiative before they are aware of the monsters, (which could give away the ambush), or 2) to tell them that the monsters ALSO had a readied action to fire at the first enemy THEY saw, (which isn't true... I hadn't readied an action, as we weren't in initiative yet, and I assumed that surprise would be effect) and just roll init. to see who gets the first shot off. I think the "abuse" that I talked about was that the players assumed that they could always get a first shot if they said they were "readying an action", and would put up a stink if I told them that they were surprised when they had "readied," and they would pull out the books, and I would pull out the books, and we never found a clear and strict answer on it.
Empiro 07-30-07, 07:06 PM	That's much easier to handle: readied actions can only be taken in combat (which is why it's in the initiative section of the combat chapter). The DM has the final say on when combat begins and ends. You should ask them to roll initiative as soon as one party is aware of the other, and one is about to attack. If the PCs win initiative, then they can shoot or ready or do whatever. If not, then they can't, simple as that. If the PCs don't see or somehow sense the enemies before they attack then a surprise round in order. Declaring that "I'm ready for an ambush" is completely meaningless.
ShadowChemosh 07-30-07, 07:07 PM	Hmm... I think the argument began (the first time of many) when a PC said "I ready an action to fire my crossbow bolt", and then moved into a position where Creatures were waiting in ambush. It was a good move, but there was no initiative set yet, as player were unaware, (but suspecting) the ambush. Then they moved, and demanded that when the monster came into sight, that they had the first shot..... You can't ready an action outside of Combat. So that ends the issue right their.
eamon 07-31-07, 08:27 AM	Although saying you can't ready outside of combat is correct and solves this particular problem, it would be fortunate for the rules to be more solid than that: it's not good if you can work around the initiative problem by, for instance, summoning a minor critter and "engaging" it (thereby entering combat and rolling initiative) and then performing the aforementioned trick of springing an ambush without risk of being surprised. So, in some corner cases you might need to be explicit about how other combatants enter initiative. If new combatants enter initiative you would need to be able to rule that others not yet aware of them are flat footed, and that the new combatants even have a chance of a surprise round, to avoid this kind of abuse. Because of the round-by-round nature and the fact that a high initiative should be an advantage in this kind of thing, you'll run into some mechanical troubles though. Anybody have any suggestions? There's a suggestion in the DMG, that for particularly climactic "entries" into battle you might reroll (and thus restart) initiative at that moment, say, the moment a powerful spellcaster becomes visible. Rerolling initiative has it's own problems though, since it makes readying and delaying much more attractive (as the penalty is reset to zero on a reroll, normally). To deal with those problems you then need a new host of rules complications (also discussed as optional rules in the DMG). Anybody have any simple solutions to this issue? The only things I can think of are much too unhandy.
Anathema 07-31-07, 10:16 AM	Anybody have any simple solutions to this issue? The only things I can think of are much too unhandy. Yes. The DM, and only the DM, may call for initiative to start combat rounds. The players can summon creatures all they want, but that doesn't allow them to intiate combat. Player: "I summon a badger and attack it" DM: "You frighten it and it runs away" D&D should never be about players trying to figure loopholes in the system, because Rule 0 closes all loopholes; and D&D isn't a competitive game anyway.
moodygnome 07-31-07, 03:42 PM	D&D should never be about players trying to figure loopholes in the system, because Rule 0 closes all loopholes; and D&D isn't a competitive game anyway. I agree that D&D isn't competetive- but my players DO often try to squeeze the most out of the rules when they can. Which is fine- it's a fun part of the game, finding great feat combos and such. It just means I have to be on my toes as a DM- this "readying an action" issue is just such an example. I think the answer, after all the great input I got (above) is to simply ask for an initiative roll as soon as a player tries to ready an action. And if players are doing it to avoid getting surprised, then to give the monsters, lurking in wait a +8 to their init. roll or something, simply because they've carefully set up their ambush, then have them ready an action to fire at the first enemy they see.;)
Kouk 07-31-07, 05:04 PM	Anybody have any simple solutions to this issue? The only things I can think of are much too unhandy. I allow "readying" within limits outside of combat. Things like "If he falls down, I will be ready to catch him." Setting up an ambush is not ideally done with "readied actions", but it can help make the order of events more understandable for everyone. If the players want to be "ready" for something, in order to ambush a group, then that is the Surprise Round. They would have to make relevant checks, or have the ability to know when they should act, but it is the Surprise Round. If they are sitting and waiting for an oblivious enemy to stroll by, then they get the single Standard action as part of the Surprise Round (they surprised him didn't they?) then people roll for Initiative. If the enemies they were trying to ambush actually rolled well on their Spot and Listen, or had some foreknowledge etc. then the players might actually be the ones to get Surprised, if the enemies sneak up on them, or else both sides start combat aware -- roll Initiative, the ambush was a failure. Surprise Rules: Surprise When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. Determining Awareness Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware. Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks. The Surprise Round If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. Unaware Combatants Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Molitor 08-01-07, 09:22 PM	In what book does that come from? Ready lowers your initiative to the count that triggers the action with you going first at that count. Delay simply lowers your initiative until you decide to act although you can't interupt with it. ? DMG page 22. Granted it's a variant rule, but still the way I DM.
Robotic_Christmass_Elf 08-03-07, 01:33 AM	DMG page 22. Granted it's a variant rule, but still the way I DM. Just a heads up, People can get a little bit peeved when you assume without asking everyone uses the same variant rules as you. It's considered somewhat poor form.
Molitor 08-03-07, 08:08 PM	Just a heads up, People can get a little bit peeved when you assume without asking everyone uses the same variant rules as you. It's considered somewhat poor form. LOL, I don't care.
Nom 08-04-07, 12:48 AM	Don't forget taking the 'ready' and 'delay' actions slows your initiative by -2 for the next round.Moreover, this rule only applies to the "roll initiative each round" variant, which does all sorts of wierd things to the turn order. It's completely irrelevant to normal play.
moodygnome 08-06-07, 12:10 AM	Had a long discussion around this with my strongest "rules-lawyer" player. While he concedes that yes, I can make any call I want as a DM, he prefers that I follow the rules as closely as possible to game as a player as best as he can. I support him in this. I'm not sure we've firmed up our decision entirely, but it does seem that there is precedent for performing "actions" outside of initiative. (PH section on surprise and initiative) These actions are simply not in any particular order, but they ARE actions, as if the players were in initiative. Therefore, it seems to make sense that a player COULD ready an action outside of initiative. So, since my players are thinking this way, instead of trying to change the way they want to play, I've decided that I simply need to play the same way- I'll ready actions outside of initiative too-- it's not the way I'm used to thinking, or DMing, but it will give the monsters as fair a shake as the players when they finally DO come into contact. Does this make sense to anyone else?
Marcus Majarra 08-06-07, 01:55 AM	Does this make sense to anyone else? Not to me. Ready and delay are special initiative actions, and initiative doesn't exist outside of combat. PHB160 even states that these are "ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order." You can't really change your initiative if you don't have one to begin with.
Anathema 08-06-07, 02:13 AM	Nit-picking is not the same as adhering to the rules. Just because you can do things like run or jump or climb outside of combat does not mean that the game function "actions" can be taken outside of the structure of rounds and turns that makes up the combat abstraction. Your 'rules lawyer' friend is only attempting to take advantage of the vagueness of this abstraction to gain a mechanical advantage, and this should not be allowed under any circumstance. He needs to respect your rulings as a DM and understand that there is a lot of interpretation that needs to happen, and it's up to the DM to make the call. You are not obliged to play by the rules (at least, when the DM and players disagree on what the rules are), because D&D is not a contest, and the sooner your players understand this the better. Your games will be bogged down with rules arguments otherwise. Starting a combat is covered under the surprise round rules and awareness. It's basically assumed that the players are alert, which is why spot and listen checks to foil ambushes for those characters who pass are automatic. The more ranks a character has in spot and listen, the more skilled they are in avoiding surprise; but even then there is a skill check involved. There is no absolute avoidance of ambushes. This is not even to mention that an ambush is essentially 'readying an action out of combat' the same as your players wish to do. Allowing this would take precedent your players readied actions, it would also completely invalidate spot & listen checks to avoid the ambush in the first place. No. Combat is an abstraction, and logic has to be ignored for a good part of it for the abstraction to work. Otherwise you're ignoring rules already in place for dealing with surprise rounds and how combat starts and when actions can be taken. Spot & Listen already govern how well the characters are at avoiding surprise rounds. Attempting to circumvent these by trying to ready actions outside of combat is dubious at best. D&D is not a legal system. No argument, no matter how good; and no precedent, no matter how clear, should ever come above a DM's good sense and obligation to keep control of his game.
Holy_Beholder 08-07-07, 03:24 PM	Ready can only be used out of combat if it is reasonable. For instance, everyone can point their crossbows at the door and ready to shoot them, I think that that is actually an example. If anyone comes through that door, they get shot. If they come from any other place, they have the advantage. Also, by the rules, you can't use a readied action on your turn, so readying to do something then moving and shooting doesn't work. Take your example of the players trying to act first. If they walk around cover, and there are enemies hiding, they could ready an action to shoot them when they get up and fire. If the enemies don't know you are there, you get a surprise round anyways. If they do, initiative should be rolled, so you can't try any cheap readied action things.
Anathema 08-07-07, 05:54 PM	Ready can only be used out of combat if it is reasonable. For instance, everyone can point their crossbows at the door and ready to shoot them, I think that that is actually an example. I don't want to get in to a huge argument here, but if you know there are enemies on the other side of a door and they know you're there as well, then both sides are 'aware' and combat has already started. After all, if they're waiting for an enemy to come through a door, then they're 'aware'. If you're just waiting to see if an enemy 'might' come through a door, then the enemies coming through would be unaware, and would thus be surprised .. making the need to ready an action moot.
calronmoonflower 08-08-07, 03:19 AM	Ready can only be used out of combat if it is reasonable. For instance, everyone can point their crossbows at the door and ready to shoot them, I think that that is actually an example. If anyone comes through that door, they get shot. If they come from any other place, they have the advantage. That's a smart tactic. I believe that soldiers are trained to do such when when in a dangerous situation. The solution is simple. Have a surprise round. The readied action then become mute.
trapspringer 08-08-07, 02:40 PM	...yea. Agree, actually. It's like... ok, so your players declare they walk around ready to shoot. Fine. But they were doing that and so were the monsters. That's what initiative represents; who is faster. Everyone is ready to fight all the time, even monsters. If'n your players are faster, then they act first. If'n your players are faster and the monster wasn't ready to shoot (for some reason), then your players get a surprise round.
Frugal 08-08-07, 03:21 PM	I'd agree that your best option is to just rule that your actions outside of combat are "freeform" so you don't typically use standard or move actions and readying has no meaning because you're not on "combat time". The rules for awareness and surprise should then cover you for ambushes.