Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FriendoftheDork 02-10-08, 09:40 AM	Hey this came up in my WoT d20 game. A light fighter acts first in a round, and his enemy is a mounted knight with lance. He takes a ready action as soon as the enemy is 10' away he wants to 5' step towards him and attack. Since he acts before the opponent, the opponent cannot complete his charge as he uses a reach weapon, and there is no AoO because a 5' step negates this. Problem: This makes mounted combat with lance useless, as enemies acting before them can just step towards them with a short weapon and get an attack in addition to making you lose yours. Second scenario (what actually happened): Said swashbuckler readies a move as soon as the enemy is 20' away, and uses tumble skill to avoid an AoO. The problem is still the same, as the knight wastes his round. Even worse, this time the knight hasn't even completed the move which is part of a charge, and cannot attack the previous target as he is no longer in a straight line but beside him. Also, if he continues his movement (which he may have to) he suffers an AoO from the swashbuckler that is now theatening him. So the same problem arises, even though the swashbuckler did give up his attack this time, but if the mounted knight cannot stop he provokes an AoO anyway. If he can stop he probably can't attack as a charge needs to be in a straight line and is a full-round action anyway. So how would you handle these examples? Can you totally negate the benefits of mounted combat simply by rolling higher initative? How flexible is a charge action if you are interrupted part way in it? Another example could be for a commoner winning initaitve to simply move to one side when charged, as the knight cannot move in a 90 degrees angle during the charge.
Talcon 02-10-08, 10:46 AM	yes that is the way to beat a charge or pounce charge. you should inform the knight that the light fighter has ready an action as the light fighter did move some what to set it up, but not what the ready action is just that he took one. lance were use in long lines of horse's so there was no place to run if you move to one side there was another knight to attack you.
Father Dale 02-10-08, 02:21 PM	I never did like the five ft step as part of a readied action. You just gave a good example of the problems it can create. I don't see a problem with readying an action to move out of the way. How many buddy cop movies are there where the heroes are about to be run over by a car and then dives away to safety at the last minute? seems about the same idea. I don't like the moving slightly out of the way, getting an attack, and then possibly provoking an AoO as well. That just seems absurd. I would note that said character can only do that once per round. So if hes got two mounted combatants to deal with it will only work against one of them. And if the mounted combatant is using a non reach weapon this trick won't work as well. If the mounted combatant has ride-by-attack I think they would be able to continue on moving, without provoking an AoO. As a nice little surprise, you could give your mounted combatants the Short Haft feat from PHB II. When the PC does this action have the mounted combatant use a swift action to 'shorten his haft' to strike from 5' away instead of 10'. And if he has ride by attack he could continue on moving. Also, if the target of a charge moves out of the way of the charge before the charger can attack, and the charger hasn't moved more than he could as a single move, he should still have a standard action available. Compare to a charging barbarian who gets tripped before he can get in range to attack a target. He should still have a standard action after being tripped, assuming he hasn't moved more than he could with a single move action.
Slimgauge 02-10-08, 03:13 PM	A light fighter acts first in a round, and his enemy is a mounted knight with lance. He takes a ready action as soon as the enemy is 10' away he wants to 5' step towards him and attack. Since he acts before the opponent, the opponent cannot complete his charge as he uses a reach weapon, and there is no AoO because a 5' step negates this. Problem: This makes mounted combat with lance useless, as enemies acting before them can just step towards them with a short weapon and get an attack in addition to making you lose yours. Well, that depends on how the DM treats the movement part of the charge, and how much move the charger has left. If the DM treats it as the charger determines the square he must go to and goes to it regardless of changes in the location of features on the battlefield, then yes the charger is kinda hosed. In this case, a five foot step away is just as effective, because the charger is locked into going to the location determined before he declared his charge. Thus, most DMs treat the final square that the charger must go to as somewhat flexible, provided the other requirements of the charge are still met, that is, you still can't exceed a double move or deviate from a straight line (unless the mount has Twisted Charge or Fleet of Foot), but you can charge less or more than the initial distance. The target square is re-evaluated after each square of movement on the part of the charger. Some allow the charger to abort the charge completely (or convert it to something else, like an overrun in the case of an invisible blocker) if something prevents it from being completed (like a pesky invisible wall of force or those unseen caltrops). In your first case, remember that the single attack the fighter gets after stepping up (since the fighter can only ready a standard action, not a full action) might be negated by a ride skill roll, assuming the charger has the Mounted Combat feat. What the charger can do in response is limited by how much movement he's got left, assuming the DM is the sort that lets the final square of a charge be somewhat flexible. No movement remaining (the charger has used all of the double move to get in position): This case would happen if the charger had just enough move to pull off the charge (assuming the target hadn't five foot stepped closer). The charger obviously can't move any further, but might still be able to shield bash that pesky fighter, or attack him with a gauntlet strike or unarmed strike. And the horse can get in a kick too. It's still a perfectly legal charge, because every square that the charger moved was in a straight line towards the closest square from wich he could attack the target. If the knight has quick-draw, he could even drop the lance and haul out another weapon to thwap him with. Less than a single move remaining: If the DM allows the charger to abort the charge, all he can do is continue with a move and can be AoOed for doing it. Better to stop right there and just whack the fighter as above. Or make a charging bull-rush: You can bull-rush as part of a charge. Push the fighter around. Make a charging overrun (Can't use Ride-By, as the fighter is blocking the horses path.) : If the charger's used less than a single move, a generous DM might allow him to substitute an overrun attack for the charge attack. I don't have the Rules Compendium, but if I recall someone reported that this (combining charge and overrun) is addressed there, but I'm not certain of that. If the charger is an actual Knight (a member of the Knight class) there's an additional wrinkle, the class features Vigilant Defender and Bulwark of Defense. When you trigger a readied action, the initiative is set to just before the triggerer. Thus, you're "beginning your turn" (technically just the triggered ready action) a second time when the Knight gets 10' away, in the knight's threated area. Bulwark of Defense makes that area difficult terrain. You can't make a five foot step in difficult terrain. Second scenario (what actually happened): Said swashbuckler readies a move as soon as the enemy is 20' away, and uses tumble skill to avoid an AoO. The problem is still the same, as the knight wastes his round. Even worse, this time the knight hasn't even completed the move which is part of a charge, and cannot attack the previous target as he is no longer in a straight line but beside him. Also, if he continues his movement (which he may have to) he suffers an AoO from the swashbuckler that is now theatening him. If the charger is an actual Knight, Vigilant Defender increases the DC of those tumble checks by the Knight's class level. Assuming the fighter still makes them, he's now adjacent to the charging knight, but not in front, right ? If that fighter/swashbuckler was the original declared target of the charge, he gets attacked right after his attack is resolved, since IMHO it's still a legal charge (unless the charger didn't even get 10' of movement). The charger never deviated from a straight line to what (at the instant he moved) was the nearest square he could make his attack from. It's true he can't make the lance attack, but that shield bash and/or charging horse kick can still hurt. If he's got the ride-by feat, he can even keep going without drawing that AoO, since the fighter was the target. So the same problem arises, even though the swashbuckler did give up his attack this time, but if the mounted knight cannot stop he provokes an AoO anyway. If he can stop he probably can't attack as a charge needs to be in a straight line and is a full-round action anyway. If the swashbuckler/fighter was the declared target of the charge, the charger MUST stop, as he's reached the closest square from wich he could attack the target. If he has ride-by, he can continue to move after making his and his horse's attack, if he wishes (and will take no AoO). So how would you handle these examples? Can you totally negate the benefits of mounted combat simply by rolling higher initative? How flexible is a charge action if you are interrupted part way in it? This is one of the reasons formation is important. Charging piecemeal is less effective than delaying until you can charge as a group. This is also a good arguement for taking the ride-by feet, and if possible getting the mount the fleet of foot feet. Twisted charge is a skill trick, but it would be very difficult for a mount to get as it requires both balance and tumble ranks. In order to make Ride-By work as a feat, you've got to be able to declare a charge that passes beside the target. So allow a mounted charger (only, no ride-by for chargers on foot) to declare a line of charge that lets that happen. Restrict movement to movement along the line of charge unless something happens to make a charge impossible. Allow them to abort the charge (it becomes regular movement, but they still get the -2 AC) but at the cost of losing at least some of their action if they deviate from the charge path.
FriendoftheDork 02-10-08, 03:17 PM	yes that is the way to beat a charge or pounce charge. you should inform the knight that the light fighter has ready an action as the light fighter did move some what to set it up, but not what the ready action is just that he took one. lance were use in long lines of horse's so there was no place to run if you move to one side there was another knight to attack you. Så det blir "oh no he's ready for something, damn then my 4 mounted combat feats are moot!" My point is that since combat actually happens simultaneously, the rider should be able to react somewhat to the one he attacks or at least change it so that he can continue and charge someone else in line. Since multiquoting doesen't seem to work: Father Dale, your jumping away at the last minute from an onrushing vehicle seems more like a reflex save than a deliberate ready action... and a horse is an animal, not a vehicle, and can move sideways during a charge.. and this is even worse when it is a human doing it. In my game the horseman had almost finished his charge and had spent more than his move action to get to the point where the ready action triggered. So no, no standard action for him (or this wouldn't be a problem). And giving NPCs feats not normally available to PCs won't help IMO. The problem is not the PC abusing ready rules this one time, the problem is how ready actions so easily can be abused to nullify other people's actions. And ready action=immune to charge is a problem since alot of feats depend on being able to charge. BTW in the same combat a PC horseman rode into melee with several other knights, prevent them from charging as well (and suffering numerous AoOs doing so). I don't have a problem with that though, it was heroic and brave and not abusing a game mechanic.
Nathreet 02-10-08, 03:24 PM	I could see someone standing at the ready to dodge an oncoming horse. But the charging guy would see this and be able to change his direction. He wouldn't be charging in that direction anymore, but he could still move in a different direction. And, per the rules, can you really use a free action like a 5 foot step as part of a ready action? This one seems like it could be plausible either way.
FriendoftheDork 02-10-08, 03:35 PM	Slimgauge, I like your take on charge. I didn't know you only had to charge in a straight line to a square (or in this case 20 squares) from which you can attack. And I admit I forgot about the mount being able to attack as well, although only a single attack, and that rideby allows you to do this without provoking an AoO. The 5' step is still a problem (no there is no Knight class in my game), and no matter what they can always prevent you from making a lance charge by moving inside your reach. Giving him short haft feat would replace spirited charge, and I don't want to give out noncore feats anyway while banning then for the PCs. Still your answers have been helpful, and I'm more prepared now at least for a similar occurrence. Note to self: every mounted combatant now should have a ranged backup weapon to prevent evil readying ;)
FriendoftheDork 02-10-08, 03:39 PM	I could see someone standing at the ready to dodge an oncoming horse. But the charging guy would see this and be able to change his direction. He wouldn't be charging in that direction anymore, but he could still move in a different direction. And, per the rules, can you really use a free action like a 5 foot step as part of a ready action? This one seems like it could be plausible either way. In RL you can change direction during a charge, in D&D you cannot. And a 5' step is not a free action, it is a nonaction you can do instead of taking one or more move actions. You can take a 5' step as part of a readied action (thus ready an attack against someone with reach and still being able to hit first)
Slimgauge 02-10-08, 05:39 PM	In RL you can change direction during a charge, in D&D you cannot You could house-rule (and recognize that it IS a house-rule) that if someone interrupts a charge with a readied action, the charger may re-calculate his line of charge from the square he is in when the readied action is triggered, or convert the charge into a move or double move action (depending on how much movement is already used) if charging is no longer possible, but the -2 penalty to AC remains. This means that on a featureless plane a mounted charger could actually charge down a footman who had a readied action. If the footman has terrain to work with and his readied movement took him into a position where the new (re-calculated) line of charge would pass over blocking terrain, he's spoiled the charge. The charger can't make a legal charge, so his action gets converted to a move action (with a remaining unused standard action). If he's already moved farther than a single move action would let him, then he's made a double move and has only whatever movement distance he hasn't already used left. None of that solves the "5' stepping inside the lance's reach". This All About Mounts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a) article suggests (italics mine)You effectively use your mount's space and your own reach (or whatever extended reach your weapon gives you) while mounted. While you're mounted, any attack that can reach a square in the space you and your mount jointly occupy can affect you or your mount (it doesn't make a difference which square). Likewise, you measure your reach for your melee attacks and the range for your ranged attacks from any square you and your mount jointly occupy. If you use this, the rider could count his reach from one of the farther squares and still make that lance attack.
FriendoftheDork 02-10-08, 05:55 PM	You could house-rule (and recognize that it IS a house-rule) that if someone interrupts a charge with a readied action, the charger may re-calculate his line of charge from the square he is in when the readied action is triggered, or convert the charge into a move or double move action (depending on how much movement is already used) if charging is no longer possible, but the -2 penalty to AC remains. This means that on a featureless plane a mounted charger could actually charge down a footman who had a readied action. If the footman has terrain to work with and his readied movement took him into a position where the new (re-calculated) line of charge would pass over blocking terrain, he's spoiled the charge. The charger can't make a legal charge, so his action gets converted to a move action (with a remaining unused standard action). If he's already moved farther than a single move action would let him, then he's made a double move and has only whatever movement distance he hasn't already used left. Well I think I like the house rules suggested. A bit complex perhaps, but in a way it is just common sense. None of that solves the "5' stepping inside the lance's reach". This All About Mounts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a) article suggests (italics mine) If you use this, the rider could count his reach from one of the farther squares and still make that lance attack. Is this from the rules of the game article? Well in any case, I don't think what you suggest is what they meant. A horse in 3.5 is 10 by 10 feet space, and the rider occupies this same space, which means 10 feet from the opper square upwards, and 10 feet from the lower square downwards. This means you don't need a lance in order to attack someone straight ahead, as the you count as having reach from the foremost square and not from the back of the horse as you might think. I don't think it was intended that you can attack with reach weapons to an adjacent square just by "wanting" to count reach from the square furthest away from the target. Regardless, this does solve the problem and make mounted combat more powerful, which is OK in my book, if a bit silly. I'll talk about it with my players and see if they think it's too stupid or not.
Talcon 02-10-08, 08:54 PM	you are now penaltzing the quick fighter for doing the right thing to beat a charge. if tell the knight that the quick fighter drop into a crouch and has ready an action. As it is before his turn he can change his action and like drop his lance, ride up and hack at him with a sword. ready as an action is fairly limited in that if the condition is not meet you have wasted your action. you have got to be fair to both fighters.
FriendoftheDork 02-11-08, 04:31 AM	you are now penaltzing the quick fighter for doing the right thing to beat a charge. if tell the knight that the quick fighter drop into a crouch and has ready an action. As it is before his turn he can change his action and like drop his lance, ride up and hack at him with a sword. ready as an action is fairly limited in that if the condition is not meet you have wasted your action. you have got to be fair to both fighters. The right thing to beat a charge is either to move behind cover or set a spear weapon against it. In the former you waste your round to waste the charger's, and in the latter both get an attack with bonus damage. A lone footman with a sword is supposed to be at a disadvantage against heavy cavalry. And it is true that ready actions are supposed to occurr before the turn which is readied against, but it is also possible to ready against "when opponent is within x fee", in which case the knight have already spent one or more move actions, and can't get a whole turn free.
mvincent 02-11-08, 12:41 PM	enemies acting before them can just step towards them with a short weapon and get an attack in addition to making you lose yours.Readying actions require some DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. I might allow a player to get away with this once (because it's clever, and requires some prep), but after that mounted chargers will probably just ready an action themselves (while their mount charges) to attack their opponent... which appears to be allowable per RAW, and still counts as a charge. Second scenario (what actually happened): Said swashbuckler readies a move as soon as the enemy is 20' away, and uses tumble skill to avoid an AoO. The problem is still the same, as the knight wastes his round. Even worse, this time the knight hasn't even completed the move which is part of a charge, and cannot attack the previous target as he is no longer in a straight line but beside him. Also, if he continues his movement (which he may have to) he suffers an AoO from the swashbuckler that is now theatening him. Note that D&D often allows you to modify your actions mid-way through (there's significant precedence for this). In the above case, the charger may have only made the equivalent of single move action, and so could be allowed a standard action after the situation has changed. Also, the charger (if mounted) may start readying actions himself while charging (as mentioned above). Ultimately, the DM has to rule on what is reasonable here... but I'd allow a swashbuckler to have his fun (once). It certainly seems like the sort of thing a swashbuckler would do.
mtbOgre 02-11-08, 06:08 PM	Hey this came up in my WoT d20 game. A light fighter acts first in a round, and his enemy is a mounted knight with lance. He takes a ready action as soon as the enemy is 10' away he wants to 5' step towards him and attack. Since he acts before the opponent, the opponent cannot complete his charge as he uses a reach weapon, and there is no AoO because a 5' step negates this. Problem: This makes mounted combat with lance useless, as enemies acting before them can just step towards them with a short weapon and get an attack in addition to making you lose yours. I'm not certain this is entirely possible even under the rules. It's all based on the assumption of a static world. As if once the knight starts in motion he is paralyzed by the rule system while the player character is free to move as long as he has a readied action. When charging with a lance are you attacking that object precisely 18' away? No you are attacking the character. If the character moves then the knight will react accordingly. If the horse can't turn the night could certainly aim his lance at a target that is in the lances threatened area. Second scenario (what actually happened): Said swashbuckler readies a move as soon as the enemy is 20' away, and uses tumble skill to avoid an AoO. The problem is still the same, as the knight wastes his round. Even worse, this time the knight hasn't even completed the move which is part of a charge, and cannot attack the previous target as he is no longer in a straight line but beside him. Also, if he continues his movement (which he may have to) he suffers an AoO from the swashbuckler that is now theatening him. Again, it's not an AoA, it's an attack, just because the PC is moving at the time the charger is still attacking that character and would make that attack as soon as the character is in range not waiting until he is at the square where the character was when he started moving. So how would you handle these examples? Can you totally negate the benefits of mounted combat simply by rolling higher initative? How flexible is a charge action if you are interrupted part way in it? This is not limited to mounted combat only. If a wizard is stuck next to a fighter with deadly intent and readies an action "When he begins to swing at me I make a 5' step backwards and blast him with magic missile." None of this is possible. The fighter isn't going to swing through empty air because he would take a step along with the wizard, the mounted rider is merely going to skewer the swashbuckler a little sooner than he would have otherwise. Motion in combat is a given and fluid, combatants attack creatures not squares on the grid.
FriendoftheDork 02-12-08, 04:36 AM	Readying actions require some DM adjudication even under the best of circumstances. I might allow a player to get away with this once (because it's clever, and requires some prep), but after that mounted chargers will probably just ready an action themselves (while their mount charges) to attack their opponent... which appears to be allowable per RAW, and still counts as a charge. Ok do you have any rules backing this up? I don't doubt that you can ready an action and have the horse act on it's own, but the readed action would have to be a partial charge in order for it to count as a charge, and that means doing so no more than the mount's speed away and no less than 10' away (+5' for the lance) from the target. But this seems wrong as you can't both get the benefit of charging with the lance AND get the attack from the horse in the same round. Note that D&D often allows you to modify your actions mid-way through (there's significant precedence for this). In the above case, the charger may have only made the equivalent of single move action, and so could be allowed a standard action after the situation has changed. Also, the charger (if mounted) may start readying actions himself while charging (as mentioned above). More flexible actions seems a better option yes. I haven't seen anything in the rules that allow you to change your action based on the actions of a readied character, and the gist of the problem is that the rules clearly state that a readied action takes place BEFORE the action it was readied against. However since this particular ready action is triggered by having the action almost completed, it may be a good idea to let the horseman react and change his action according to the updated situation. And in the second example the swash' used tumble so it was pretty cool :) Ultimately, the DM has to rule on what is reasonable here... but I'd allow a swashbuckler to have his fun (once). It certainly seems like the sort of thing a swashbuckler would do. Exactly, I don't think it was a problem to allow this once (and he also cut the saddlestrap and made a knight fall out of his saddle), but if he continues to do this he will break mounted combat completely and I cannot allow that as MC is important in the game world. I'm not certain this is entirely possible even under the rules. It's all based on the assumption of a static world. As if once the knight starts in motion he is paralyzed by the rule system while the player character is free to move as long as he has a readied action. Well this is why there are many jokes in webcomics regarding fighters standing still and "waiting for their turn." Silliness, of course, but mechanically this is the normal combat. Delay and Ready actions change this, and mechanics like AoOs are meant to make combat LESS static (to show that you CAN react even when it's not your turn). The problem is that the rules say that only one character can act at a time, and the one with the readied action acts before the character it is readied against. Thus the swash' should be able to make his move before the knight can charge him down. When charging with a lance are you attacking that object precisely 18' away? No you are attacking the character. If the character moves then the knight will react accordingly. If the horse can't turn the night could certainly aim his lance at a target that is in the lances threatened area. Yes, this is the interpretation I'm most favorable to, although it does say a charge has to be in a straight line. And in this particular example even if the knight can react after the swash' has moved up next to him, his lance has too much reach and he can't attack without moving away from his intended target (which would provoke an AoO). He can't make a 5' step as he has already moved this round, he can't just attack with another weapon as that requires quickdraw. His horse can attack instead of him, but that's 1d6+4 damage instead of 3d8+9! (spirited charge). If you use Slimgauge's suggestion to let a mounted combatant to use any part of his space he counts his reach from, and allow one to charge someone not straight ahead of you, the problem would be fixed (both my examples), but I think that sounds a bit cheesy. I mean, does that mean a large creature of any kind can use a reach weapon and thus threaten every square around him even 5' away? That would mean large creatures use reach weapons as though they were natural weapons (i.e no dead zone). Still if this is the only way I can fix this problem I will do so, and simply justify it by saying a horse with a man on top is more flexible reach-wise than a horse alone. Again, it's not an AoA, it's an attack, just because the PC is moving at the time the charger is still attacking that character and would make that attack as soon as the character is in range not waiting until he is at the square where the character was when he started moving. This contradicts the rules saying a readied actin takes place before the opponent's action. I'm assuming you meant AoO. This is not limited to mounted combat only. If a wizard is stuck next to a fighter with deadly intent and readies an action "When he begins to swing at me I make a 5' step backwards and blast him with magic missile." None of this is possible. The fighter isn't going to swing through empty air because he would take a step along with the wizard, the mounted rider is merely going to skewer the swashbuckler a little sooner than he would have otherwise. Motion in combat is a given and fluid, combatants attack creatures not squares on the grid. By RAW, this is quite possible, but since the wizard interrupted the fighter's action it has not yet taken place, and thus he has still his actions. If said fighter had already moved his speed, the wizard could actually pull this off, as the fighter can't move more than his speed and still attack without charging. And if the fighter had already charged twice his speed, then the wizard's action would mean the fighter couldn't reach him at all. Of course, the wizard could always have moved during his round and blasted him with MM anyway so the readied action changes little. But yes if the fighter hadn't spent his move he could simply move after the wizard had fired his MM and still attack him.
Slimgauge 02-12-08, 11:46 AM	If you use Slimgauge's suggestion to let a mounted combatant to use any part of his space he counts his reach from, and allow one to charge someone not straight ahead of you, the problem would be fixed (both my examples), but I think that sounds a bit cheesy. I mean, does that mean a large creature of any kind can use a reach weapon and thus threaten every square around him even 5' away? That would mean large creatures use reach weapons as though they were natural weapons (i.e no dead zone). No, it doesn't apply to large creatures of any kind, only mounted riders. The RIDER (only) may count his reach from (and be attacked by anyone who can reach) any square of his mount. This can get a little silly if you've got, say, a diminuative rider on a collossal mount, but the alternative is harder.
mtbOgre 02-12-08, 12:23 PM	This contradicts the rules saying a readied actin takes place before the opponent's action. I'm assuming you meant AoO. No, it's an attack. If the readied action takes place before the charging horsman's action then the readied action would happen before the charging horseman starts moving. The actions are simultaneous. You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. So if you want to get all rules lawyer on it the readied action is triggered by the charging horseman's move action therefore the player would move before the horseman does and the horseman could strike him as normal. Wait... replay that. The swashbuckler does not move in the middle of the horseman's move action but before it... Identical to the way you played the fighter/ wizard action I described. Regardless you are making this entirely more complicated than it needs to be. Rule the way it makes sense.
mvincent 02-12-08, 01:05 PM	Ok do you have any rules backing this up?The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat) say: "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge" However, they do not actually say that the rider has to take the charge action, nor do anything other than attack at the end of the mount's charge. the readed action would have to be a partial chargeUnrelated side note: you cannot ready a charge... not even a partial charge (links to threads that conclusively discuss this available on request). I haven't seen anything in the rules that allow you to change your action based on the actions of a readied characterThe rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack) for full attack say: "After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out."... so you could change the remainder of you action here based on the actions of a readied character. WotC has also given other examples of allowing someone to alter the remainder of their action once interrupted (example: charge being halted by a pit, invisible character, force wall, etc.) Also, the Ready rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready) say: "If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." ... so if you interrupted someone's regular movement, they could certainly continue in a different direction. Lastly, the charging rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) do not actually say that one must travel in a straight line... they merely say that you must move "directly toward the designated opponent". So by strict RAW, if your opponent moves during your charge, you would still continue moving towards them (even if that is now in a different direction). the rules clearly state that a readied action takes place BEFORE the action it was readied against. Well, that statement is not true for all circumstances, nor should it be taken over-literally (down that path lies madness).
deathbane 02-12-08, 05:14 PM	Hey this came up in my WoT d20 game. A light fighter acts first in a round, and his enemy is a mounted knight with lance. He takes a ready action as soon as the enemy is 10' away he wants to 5' step towards him and attack. Since he acts before the opponent, the opponent cannot complete his charge as he uses a reach weapon, and there is no AoO because a 5' step negates this. Problem: This makes mounted combat with lance useless, as enemies acting before them can just step towards them with a short weapon and get an attack in addition to making you lose yours. Second scenario (what actually happened): Said swashbuckler readies a move as soon as the enemy is 20' away, and uses tumble skill to avoid an AoO. The problem is still the same, as the knight wastes his round. Even worse, this time the knight hasn't even completed the move which is part of a charge, and cannot attack the previous target as he is no longer in a straight line but beside him. Also, if he continues his movement (which he may have to) he suffers an AoO from the swashbuckler that is now theatening him. So the same problem arises, even though the swashbuckler did give up his attack this time, but if the mounted knight cannot stop he provokes an AoO anyway. If he can stop he probably can't attack as a charge needs to be in a straight line and is a full-round action anyway. So how would you handle these examples? Can you totally negate the benefits of mounted combat simply by rolling higher initative? How flexible is a charge action if you are interrupted part way in it? Another example could be for a commoner winning initaitve to simply move to one side when charged, as the knight cannot move in a 90 degrees angle during the charge. It takes a standard action to ready an action so he may get the AoO, but he still loses the regular attack. pg 160 PHB
FriendoftheDork 02-12-08, 06:21 PM	Well this thread has certainly opened up a few avenues in my mind. First, I may be wrong about the partial charge (as that doesen't exist in 3.5), but I was referring to charging as a standard action which may be done if you for some reason is limited to a single action that turn. I would think a ready would qualify, but I'm not going to argue that. I'm going to use the reach rules you have suggested, which basically allows a knight to charge an enemy and have the horse attack as well (since the horse is technically charging while the rider is just on... for the ride. I will also interpret ready actions and charges a tad loser, and allow people with interrupted action to still perform some action. I'm not 100% convinced this is RAW, but it will solve a few headaches at least. Mcvincent, when I said a readied action takes place before the action it is readied against I was talking about the knight's attack, not the movement getting there. Since the trigger interrupts the knight's actions, he must perform part of his action in any case. However, he cannot make the attack before the readied action is finished, in which case his attack may be illegal. Slims mountedreach rules fixes the scenario anyway (even the 5' step scenario), and thus the only way for this readying to work would be to move behind cover or out of the movement range of the charger. In such a case the person spent his action just to negate the charger's action, and that's not so bad since next round the charger can do something else than fall into the same trap.
toucanbuzz 02-13-08, 11:19 AM	Along with the rules quotes, you can apply a small dose of common sense to the scenario and even look at real-life as a model. If I'm on a charging mount, you can move left, you can move right, forwards or backwards, but I still see you and still have that lance pointed straight at you the entire time. If I miss you, it's not because you took a 5' step; it's because I failed on the attack roll. Now if you "readied" and ducked behind a large rock, we've got a different scenario, because my mount isn't going to be able to navigate over that large rock for me to spear you! I would rule that with the readied action the character moves when he sees the charge, but unless he ducks behind a barrier that will prevent a charge, all he has done is change the square that the charger will strike. I would agree with the way it played out if the charger was only 10' away to start and was readying a charge, because then I've moved close enough to negate any "steam" the charger would have and forced him to take another action. In the RAW, the readied action is completed first, then the conditional action occurs. Hence, the player would move whatever direction they wished, and unless this moved too close for a charge or behind cover that would negate a charge, the charge goes as planned.