Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wicksy 02-22-08, 08:00 PM	I have a question about a rule/common sense clash that i have had not more than a few hours back that stopped combat dead in its tracks for 45 minutes. Here it is.... The players discover that some baddies are hiding out in a cellar. They decide to check it out but being careful they take steps to determine what is there. The barbarian goes down some steps and opens the door. The wizard, invisble sneaks in to scope the place out. I roll hide checks for the baddies and a spot check for the wizard. He spots two of them... I also roll listen checks for the baddies to hear the wizard. They all fail. So, i'm pleased that they have taken steps to scope out the situation instead of rushing head-long into death. The fighter decides to be sensible and cover the doorway with his bow. He specifically made sure i knew this by saying "I ready an action to shoot the first attacker i see" OK i thought, lets see what else happens. The wizard then sneaks back to the barbarian at the front and whispers what he sees. I figure that there is a tiny chance that the whisper may be over heard since there are people hiding no more than about 15' away so i roll and i get lucky. Now combat can begin i figure since attacks are going to be made so we all roll initiative. Three of my guys go first so we up and attack. Two fighters steam in to the fray and begin attacking. This is where it all gets sticky. My fighter PC now says he wants his readied action. I counter by saying no, you can only ready during combat. He argues back by saying that readying an action is a comat action so combat is started. I again counter by saying "who are you attacking? The darkness?" 'cause thats all he can see in that room. It seems illogical that you can have a one mad fight happening. So, whats the official cannon on the rules? I say NO as the combat hadnt started yet but he whines saying that its lame that he cant ready an action in case there are baddies there. He knows they are there but no-ne was in combat. I'm tempted to rule that if he states he is readying an action before combat occurs he gets an auto 20 on his initiative where he can then ready his action. I need help guys....
Salla 02-22-08, 08:06 PM	You can't ready an action outside of combat. The best they can hope for is a good initiative roll or a surprise round.
zeratulcraft 02-22-08, 08:10 PM	I commonly ready actions outside of combat... "If that giant charges, I move to intercept." "If I see that guy draw a weapon, I quick draw mine and attack." Both of those before combat has started. But yes, you have to be able to see a target to take out your ready action. For instance, "I fire an arrow at the first attacker to come through that door." All well and good, is there light there? If yes, then fine, a kobold comes charging through and you shoot it. If no, well you didn't see anything to fire at. Initiative and combat makes no difference to your capacity to be ready for something. "When the rogue disarms the trap, I kick down the door." That's a ready action too.
Wicksy 02-22-08, 08:35 PM	I'm not sure how to handle this. He does tend to whinge when we dont agree to his points of view. I guess i'll just have to slap him down and tell his thems the breaks. It annoys me that he and the others can put together game breaking combos (i'm old school, i'd rather game using the old AD&D rules ;) ) yet when i want to use the rules he is usually the first to complain. I guess i've got to tell him so. I hate doing this with mates.
Andrew 02-22-08, 08:36 PM	You can't ready an action outside of combat and have it triggered in combat. That is the purpose of initiative rolls and the surprise round. Even if you allowed it, you're flatfooted until your turn in the initiative order, so you can't take that action yet. What you should instead use in these circumstances are rules for surprise rounds when one side is aware and the other isn't. In the OP's scenario, everybody rolls initiative, but as the antagonists don't know about the players, each player gets the advantage of a move or standard action, nobody is jostling around with readied-action oneupmanship, and best of all there's no continual paranoid declarations. (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20060204.html) Alternatively, if you're mean, you let everyone do this. I don't think it'll take too long with every monster having a spell, an attack, a partial charge, or total defense always readied to wear out.
Wicksy 02-22-08, 08:51 PM	OK, so in my case above the baddies know about the barbarian in the front but not the fighter up the stairs. The fighter knows the baddies are there though so the baddies are surprised with respect to the fighter (and the wizard but thats neither here nor there) however if the fighter doesnt know whats, who and how many in the room, how can he surprise what he doesnt know? It all sounds like i have to knock his nose out of joint somewhat.
Andrew 02-22-08, 09:20 PM	I don't think I see the state of the barbarian clearly in that example. It doesn't work so well when both sides are aware. If both parties are aware, but choose not to jump into combat at the first opportunity (a gunfight where both are waiting for the other side to draw, for example), in that circumstance I'd roll initiative and let all parties ready actions on their initiative counts as long as they don't take more than a move action each round. Then, when someone decides to jump, they act on their initiative and let everything fall as it will.
Tedronai 02-23-08, 12:49 AM	At this point, if I were a player in that game, I'd just suggest the alternative of using the initiative system for EVERYTHING (and thus always having the option of readying an action under your rules). Speaking is a non-action, and just because actions are taking place in initiative order doesn't by necessity mean that each individual will be taking an action (do nothing is always an option), nor that the actions will be offence-related. It would make certain other issues more complicated (such as figuring out how to deal with surprise rounds and being flat-footed), but it would prevent you from screwing me over.
Kouk 02-23-08, 02:26 AM	You can't "Ready an Action" as per the rules, meaning taking a Standard Action to perform a specific action later on when conditions are met. You can certainly "get ready to do something" though out of combat. If the party needs to climb a wall, and we have got a grappling hook attached, I can stand under the guy climbing up and "be ready" to catch him if he falls. Similarly, I can "be ready" to catch a ball somebody throws at me can't I? No combat there necessarily. What if someone is going to lift a portcullis and I have to dive under it while he holds it. No combat, but I am trying to "be ready" to do something. Do we have to start a combat in order for him to lift the portcullis, and if I have a bad initiative I can't go through? Strictly speaking you can't take the "ready an action" standard action outside of combat, but you can be ready for things to happen logically. If you can't "be ready" outside of combat, how could anyone ever perform an ambush? It would all be some kind of accident on who went first. This is what Surprise Rounds are for, when one side is aware and able to act when another side can't. OK now I have rambled, but my point is I would have let him act as if he had been Readying his action from the beginning. If he wasn't able to see any enemies he couldn't have completed it though. The player stated he was going to shoot the next enemy (he saw) which came through the door. Say he got a 4, should you then wait for his initiative to come up until he is able to "Ready an action to shoot the next enemy coming through the door" even after 6 goblins have just run through the door by the time you reach 4? Was his character spacing out that whole time?
weasel0 02-23-08, 03:19 AM	Rules of initiative-wise, the 6 goblins just came throught the door so fast, he wasn't able to react to them. That's what initiative is for. Want to be creative? Give him a +4 to his Init for having his weapon set for an attack. Otherwise, there's no point to rolling Init at all. All the monsters would have readied actions to shoot any adventurer that comes through the entrace.
Drag0nUL 02-23-08, 04:02 AM	To be honest, stuff like this has bothered me for a while. By RAW, you can't ready an action out of combat. But when and how exactly is combat initiated? What, by RAW prevents a player form saying: I want to roll initiative and declare combat? Or: I try to punch the wizard, therefore beginning combat and therefore I can ready an action?
weasel0 02-23-08, 04:24 AM	In theory, combat should begin as soon as one side takes hostile action against an opposing force OR at least 2 sides are aware of each other just to see which hostile action goes first. Question 1: nothing really. That's what saying "I attack" really means anyway. Question2: trying to punch the wizard begins combat immediately, wiz sense motive for hostile intent probably with a hefty penalty for it being a friend(supposedly) and go from there. If the wiz makes the check, he rolls init with the guy. If the wiz fails, the guy gets a surprise round and then the wiz gets an init roll.
Drag0nUL 02-23-08, 06:01 AM	Actually I meant the second question more like: What's stopping me to agree with an ally to initiate combat among ourselves, so that we can ready an action vs. the real hostile force?
McPoyo 02-23-08, 09:35 AM	I just use surprise rounds. One side is aware, the other isn't, they take their single action (readying, in this case). Then the actual combat begins, and initiative falls where it will for the enemies (or pcs, depending on the case). If the PCs still roll higher, then they renew their readied actions. If the monsters win, then the PCS have their readied actions from the surprise round still. Saying "Well the rules say you can't X Y Z" and then penalizing the guy for being ready is kind of ****. Surprise rounds are designed for this purpose. When "combat starts" isn't when the first guy to attack goes, it's when the first offensive action is joined. If the PCs are just gonna sit there and wait minutes/hours for a guy to walk out, I see no reason to initiate combat, but if they are taking a single round or whatnot to prepare to burst in on the "enemy" Why not use the mechanic that exists for that purpose? In all honesty, come at me from a dark hallway that I've got a gun trained on and ready to blast whatever comes at me when I'm standing at least 5 feet away. See if you don't get shot. That's the premise behind the surprise round.
Wicksy 02-23-08, 12:16 PM	I would tend to agree....common sense should prevail. This is a lot of the reason why i prefer the basic 2nd ed rules...no twinking, no "builds" (i hate that name for characters, to me it goes against the RP in RPG). Meh, i'm stuck with 3.5 though so i guess i better make the most of it. I'll start counting initiative when he declares his desire to ready an action and we'll go from there. Thats easier to me. barbarian is standing on one side of a 10' wide doorway peering into the darkness. He cant see anything. The invisible dwarven wizard is telling the barbarian what he sees. Up the stairs is the fighter covering the door. He doesnt know what is there so would be effectively surprised by someone coming through the door? Therefore if we count intiative then the fighter gets his readied action as the first attacker comes forward to lay into the barbarian. We then go from there. That works. Cheers for the advice guys!
Rood_Inverse 02-23-08, 02:57 PM	Right. You can't ready an action outside of combat... He argues back by saying that readying an action is a comat action so combat is started. I again counter by saying "who are you attacking? The darkness?" 'cause thats all he can see in that room. It seems illogical that you can have a one mad fight happening. This was something, and maybe I've read wrong, that I didn't see quite specifically addressed. Does readying a combat action trigger initiative, and thusly, combat? And, if it does... Would it automatically default as an action in the surprise round, during the normal initiative ranking, instead of being a readied action? Otherwise it would sound like: declare readied action > roll surprise init > see init (and enemy going before him) > re-ready (foir lack of a better mechanical term) the action to attack > action triggers when higher-init foe appears... And that'd just be silly. I'll wait for more experienced people to answer, but I'll assert that him taking/readying the action is what provokes an initiative roll, meaning he'd have to declare a combat action. . . . Also... Surprise rounds only include (a) people who know they are in combat, and (b) single, standard actions. In a surprise round, can you even ready a partial action... or is that counter-intuitive since you're (hopefully) the only one taking an action in the surprise round. (If you ready an action in a round when no other actions take place... You just wasted an entire round, right?)
Wicksy 02-23-08, 06:59 PM	Well, it specifically states that readying an action is a combat action, though in the case i describe above there was no combat. I think i got too bogged down in the argument to be sensible. He is a rules lawyer and i hate them. They take all the fun out of being a DM. So i guess i wouldnt back down. He did have a few useful points to make similiar to some of those above.
sorites 02-25-08, 03:28 PM	RAW: Actions cannot be readied outside of combat. Here's how I personally handle initiative. My players often start by talking to their enemies, rather than just attacking straight away. During parlay, some PCs tell me they want to "ready" actions, which I allow. I treat this as a kind of 'pseudo-initiative', where I try to ask each PC what they're doing and I keep it narrative. I don't actually have everyone roll initiative until an offensive action occurs. If there is parley between the party and an ogre, for example, I will allow the conversation to play out and I'll let the PCs do other things too. Like, the rogue may try to sneak around behind the ogre while the bard keeps him talking. But as soon as the rogue (or anyone else) makes an attack, we roll initiative. I let the rogue make his attack/damage rolls during the "surprise" round, but then we all roll init, including the first attacker and the bad guys. In the OP's example where some party members snuck in without the orcs seeing them, I'd let the party have a surprise round to ambush the orcs *if* they did it before I made that successful Listen roll to hear them whispering. Once the orcs are aware of the party (and visa versa), I'd describe the orcs turning to confront the party and one of them would say (in orcish), "Hey! Did you hear that?!!" Then I'd tell them to roll init. Remember, combat is an abstraction. You could consider the sneaking, hiding, and whispering as turn-based combat actions, except at that point you are *technically* not in combat. I think the biggest problem here is conceptualizing when combat begins and having previous actions make sense once combat officially starts. I would not have the players roll initiative just because the fighter wants to ready an action. I would make a mental note of the "illegal" readied action and then allow the player to take the action if the conditions are met prior to combat starting -- and if that readied action is offensive, that would trigger the start of combat. If a surprise round is warranted and the conditions are met, I'd let the player use the readied action at that point. If the condition is not met until after initiative is rolled, I'd forgo the readied action and declare it "lost" -- the player can take an action (or ready a new one) when it's his turn in the initiative order. Of course, this diverges from RAW, so take it for what it's worth. If your player is a rules lawyer and you want to strive to go by the RAW, then simply rule that players may not ready actions outside of combat. They can *take* actions, but not ready them. The only problem with that is that it goes against common sense. Players generally want to say things like, "I am guarding the door. If I see an orc in the doorway, I shoot it." That's all well and good until an orc comes through the door and you say, "roll init" and your player says, "I want to shoot it first!" and you say, "Beat the orc in initiative then."
McJarvis 02-25-08, 08:08 PM	You don't have to wait for them to see each other to roll initiative. Over in CoCo(the Core Colliseum) we roll initiative from the get-go & sometimes don't end up seeing each other until 5-6 rounds into battle. The reasoning there is we're doing gladiator-fighting and the moment you're allowed in the arena you are "aware" there is another gladiator, whether you see him or not. [since that's the reason you're there] If they detected first- give them a surprise round. After that, take them towards their enemy round-by-round & let the fighter use his readied action.
nightwing 02-26-08, 11:30 AM	We had a similar incident happen last week... Our party came to a door in a dungeon. My rogue listens at the door and hears some "shuffling feet" behind the door. We all get into "combat formation" (ranger and fighter up front, cleric next, and rogue and wizard in the back with bows and spells ready). Then the fighter up front opens the door. Behind are a pack of perhaps six or eight orcs. They heard us, we heard them, no one is really surprised. But everyone claims that they have "readied" an action. The DM argues that the orcs are sitting behind the door ready to loose arrows and spears as soon as the door opens so they should go first automatically. We argue that we've all got readied actions in the same sense: the fighter is going to fling the door open and charge the first opponent he sees, the ranger is going to do the same, the cleric is going to rush in as soon as the way is clear, and the rogue and wizard are going to fire spells/arrows as soon as there's no one in the way. What the DM ended up doing was having everyone roll initiative, then having combat start on the orcs' initiative count, so the orcs went first, and everyone else followed in init. order. But, that meant that the people in our party who rolled highest for init. (higher than the orcs) ended up going last in the order. It seems to me that combat should be considered "begun" when one side is willing and able to attack the other. So, the act of opening the door begins the combat. Since no one is really surprised, init. is rolled and everyone goes in order, just like any other situation. I think there are two factors that confuse people: 1) the opening of the door, and 2) the firing of bows. I think that it's easy to (incorrectly) think that "combat" has begun when someone *prepares* to open the door or fire the arrow, not when the prepared event actually happens.
rimble 02-26-08, 12:09 PM	It seems to me that combat should be considered "begun" when one side is willing and able to attack the other. So, the act of opening the door begins the combat. Since no one is really surprised, init. is rolled and everyone goes in order, just like any other situation. I think there are two factors that confuse people: 1) the opening of the door, and 2) the firing of bows. I think that it's easy to (incorrectly) think that "combat" has begun when someone *prepares* to open the door or fire the arrow, not when the prepared event actually happens. I agree. Combat evolves around awareness. The PCs were aware of the NPCs. Combat had begun. However, only two of the PCs were really aware. The Wizard gets to act in the surprise round, as does the Barbarian. The Fighter can't--thinking enemies are there is not the same as actual awareness, i.e. seeing/hearing them, or in the case of the Barbarian, being told straight on that enemies are there. Basically, the Fighter was the only one surprised. As soon as Awareness is established, you go into rounds, starting with a Surprise round if the Awareness is one-sided.
rimble 02-26-08, 12:11 PM	To be honest, stuff like this has bothered me for a while. By RAW, you can't ready an action out of combat. But when and how exactly is combat initiated? What, by RAW prevents a player form saying: I want to roll initiative and declare combat? Or: I try to punch the wizard, therefore beginning combat and therefore I can ready an action? Awareness. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense, but even just standing outside of a door and spending four rounds buffing before charging in, combat is still not begun until you're aware of a threat. If you had buffed for six rounds, and heard enemies on the other side of the door, the combat is officially begun (starting with a surprise round if the enemy is unaware of you) before you even open the door.
jaspercrey 02-26-08, 11:58 PM	The act of readying, as described in the PH, is actually considered a "special initiative action" . . . and as such, relies on an initiative order already being established . . . which is why you can't ready an action outside of combat, since there is no order. That's what the book say, take it or leave it. But what this discussion really opens up is this: When, in fact, does the initiative sequence (ei. a encounter or combat) actually begin? Though I have yet to find the exact reference that actually spells this out in plain english, I have been able to determine (based on what's written in the DMG) that generally, the "encounter" begins the moment both sides can "interact" with eachother (which usually means one or both sides can "see" eachother). The DMG gives an example something akin to two parties becoming aware of eachother at the same time, but being sperated by a closed door. Depending on which course of action each side takes, several rounds may transpire before the "encounter" and thus, the initiative sequence actually begins. The closed door makes it impossible for interaction between the two parties. The encounter and initiative sequence begins the moment one of the two sides kicks open the door (thus removing the barrier preventing interaction), and no sooner. Until the door is opened, you can drink potions, cast spells or buff, but you can't actually ready, by the rules. It still comes down to an initiative roll.
Man in the Funny Hat 02-27-08, 12:28 AM	Combat encounters BEGIN with the DM determining if surprise exists. If SOMEONE is unaware of the opponents surprise exists and you move to a surprise round. Surprise round (if needed). Everyone that IS aware of opponents rolls initiative and surprise actions are resolved. Until they have acted, an individual is flat-footed. NOW, during the surprise round, people can start to ready actions. Everyone who has not already done so now rolls for their initiative. First actual combat round begins. I roll hide checks for the baddies and a spot check for the wizard. He spots two of them... I also roll listen checks for the baddies to hear the wizard. They all fail. The DM has determined that surprise exists. COMBAT BEGINS. The wizard is the only one aware of opponents and so is the only one able to take actions in the surprise round. If the other players wanted greater coordination of actions, such as ALL the PC's getting surprise actions, they could still do so I suppose, but... The wizard then sneaks back to the barbarian at the front and whispers what he sees. I figure that there is a tiny chance that the whisper may be over heard since there are people hiding no more than about 15' away so i roll and i get lucky. Now combat can begin i figure since attacks are going to be made so we all roll initiative. The wizard has, for the most part, wasted the advantage he had of surprise. He doesn't really need to roll initiative since he's the only one acting. Maybe the Barbarian could be given a +2 circumstance modifier to his initiative roll for the wizards efforts, but without knowing greater details of everyones capabilities and so forth the best thing the wizard could have done is use the opportunity to lay some smack down since he has the advantage. Again, greater coordination of actions is tough when the only person who knows where the enemy is at is invisible and can't really communicate his knowledge to the others without blowing HIS surprise advantage. Everyone now rolls initiative. Three of my guys go first so we up and attack. Two fighters steam in to the fray and begin attacking. This is where it all gets sticky. My fighter PC now says he wants his readied action. IT DOES NOT MATTER that the PC's went into the basement expecting bad guys. When the fight began the fighter DID NOT KNOW where the bad guys were or even if they WERE actually there. The only one who knew was the wizard. You can't ready against everything all the time. That is the POINT of determining surprise and rolling initiative. You can't walk down the street, heading for a restaurant on the other side of town to get a bowl of soup and say, "I'm readying to attack anyone who attacks me." If the fighter wants to be able to cover the door against the UNKNOWN, while not actually in combat, his best course of action is to improve his initiative modifier as that is how the rules handle it - NOT with readied actions outside of combat. Now, for the sake of discussion, let's say that the fighter DID know that the bad guys were just on the other side of the door. He still can't ready actions, but he CAN be in a position to act in the surprise round if one of the bad guys becomes visible through the doorway without knowing the fighter is there. Otherwise, when combat BEGINS, his best course of action is to move to where he can see an opponent and THEN attack. Unless he has initiative modifiers, he has no better chance of acting before the bad guys than the bad guys do of acting before HE does. If you want the advantage of acting first then either get surprise on the opponents or beat their initiative. Failing that, when you ready an action you SACRIFICE the advantage of acting NOW for the advantage of a specifically timed or triggered action LATER. Readying actions is NOT a means to act before EVERYTHING else - it is a means to act LATER, but before something SPECIFIC occurs.
Urithair 02-27-08, 04:38 PM	First, The error is yours DM. You should have told the player that he couldn't ready when he first stated it. Why did you let him 'ready' it if you aren't going to let him 'ready' it? It sounds like you are being a jerk. I find it strange that a real world tactic such as 'cover the doorway for possible hostiles' is being so readily denied. You could, by RAW, walk down the street as your move action and ready attack. You could not however eat some soup (a standard action) and ready an attack. It doesn't matter that you aren't 'in combat'. Saying 'but its not in combat' is a irrelevant because rounds are ALWAYS ticking away. We just don't track them most of the time. When a party is in town all the action could be done in rounds (and in fact DOES happen in rounds) but for the sake of ease we just ignore it. This is important, because nothing EVER happens 'outside' of rounds. The fighter in question should get either his readied action or a surprise round, but not both.
weasel0 02-28-08, 12:29 AM	I'd allow for covering of doors. But here is how. As soon as the something is aware, that's the instant I have the init rolled. From there on everything is done in rounds until the matter is resolved. (whether or not the players know this is irrelevant.) **You could even have players randomly roll Initiative and save the numbers for later.** Player declares covering of door. If the other side is aware and covering themselves, they get first shot(as a surprise round action only). Same the other way around. If monsters are covering doors(sweeping for PCs), and the PCs hear them coming, PCs get the init roll and readied actions(which are always surprise round actions in such a case). If both sides are aware, depending on who opens the door and how the door opens, I'd add +/- mods to either or both parties inits and/or spot checks vs hide and/or maybe opposed reflex saves to see which side gets the readied actions off. Or I may even just make everyone roll attacks at the same time and randomly assign hits and then allow damage rolls to represent the fact that both sides are literally fire at each other at the same time because they both are using the same exact readied action. "Shoot the first thing that isn't one of us as soon as the door opens."
mvincent 03-03-08, 04:13 PM	Although you cannot ready an action outside of combat, I prevent whining by saying that anyone that could (and would) have readied an action before combat (were it allowed) gets to go on the surprise round. That's kinda what a surprise round is anyway (i.e. a standard action... and multiple simultaneous readied action are typically resolved in init order anyway). Of course, there's nothing stopping the creatures on the other side of the door from 'readying' their own actions once they heard the wizard. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051129a) is an RotG article that has other tips on this sort of thing.