Red Hand of Doom balance [SPOILERS] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Red Hand of Doom balance [SPOILERS] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psilon
06-07-07, 12:45 AM OK, so I'm pretty much a novice DM, but how sensible are the encounter ratings for Red Hand? I've run two sessions now, and both times only lame-ass tactics and occasional dice fudging have stopped us from total party kills. Seriously, I must not be getting something here.

Before I go into further detail, we had a 5th-level party consisting of a rogue, favored soul, cleric, and psion [psychokineticist nuker]. There's also usually a barbarian, but that player was unavailable tonight.

For example, take the ground level of Vraath Keep. The party unfortunately managed to alert the keep's forces by clanking around in full plate and casting light on one of the shields, so we had a fight consisting of a manticore, four hobgoblin veterans, two goblins, and their worg mounts. (Karkilan went upstairs to join the Wyrmlord as per tactics section.) How is, say, the barracks supposed to be an EL 5 encounter? Just by themselves the four hobgoblin veterans are CR 8 (4x CR 4 = 2x CR 6 = CR 8?), right? And this is a normal fight for a 5th-level party that can't rest every three rooms like in a standard dungeon crawl? Or the hydra. Sure, the EL matches the hydra's CR, but the whole bog/bridge thing basically negates flanking and therefore sneak attack.

Please, tell me where I'm going wrong here. Yes, the players are largely tactical novices right now, but they really haven't done anything out-and-out stupid yet. Is Red Hand really suitable for a 5th-level party that's half newcomers? Is there a reasonable way to make it so, short of halving the monster count?
Eightbitmage
06-07-07, 12:57 AM If you obey the tactics outlined in Red Hand of Doom it is a hard campaign. If you ignore the tactics outlined in Red Hand of Doom instead playing the emeny to thier intelligence the enemy actions begin to make more sense, and it becomes an IMPOSSIBLE campaign.

You might consider bumping your PCs up a level or two, because if they are not good at planning and strategy, and to an extent power gaming, this game is going to completely destroy them.
StoneStokes
06-07-07, 03:13 AM In both of those encounters, the PCs should have the option of retreating.

The hydra isn't going to pursue them onto the bridge, as it is happy keeping to the cover of water and using its ambush technique for catching prey.

If the manticore is still alive in Vraath Keep, and the PCs retreat, the hobgoblins would likely call off their own pursuit and let the manticore chase them down. He might even call off his pursuit after a bit.

I think the designers sort of expect parties to need to retreat and regroup from time to time. This is something that might be lost on your players if they are a bit inexperienced.

Solution: create a motivational poster for your players: "Discretion is the better part of valor."

On the other hand, fudging dice rolls and pulling punches will only encourage your players to charge into every encounter headlong, thinking their DM will save them. This will become a downward spiral by the time of Chapter 5.
Psilon
06-07-07, 12:43 PM Yeah, they actually retreated after clearing out the ground floor. I'm not really opposed to killing players, but I was reluctant to wipe the entire party out during the first real session. Felt too much like Paranoia.

I'm thinking about the following changes for next week:
1. Five-player party even when people can't all make it. Create an understudy PC or two if necessary.
2. Kick everyone up to level 6.
3. Loosen the timeline restrictions.

Also, quick question regarding XP: I calculate XP based on the individual challenge ratings of the foes faced, right? So Marauder Attack (the opening fight) would be scored as 12 CR1 troops, three CR3 foes, and a CR4?

Thanks for the advice.
mvincent
06-07-07, 01:13 PM Please, tell me where I'm going wrong here. Yes, the players are largely tactical novices right now, but they really haven't done anything out-and-out stupid yet. You are not doing anything wrong. RHoD is a hard module. My group has considerable tactical experience and still had a rough time of it. If your players are tactical novices, then you should definitely give them a level or two (and appropriate gear) before continuing.
Gerry
06-07-07, 11:40 PM You're doing fine, and yes, that is the standard method of assigning XP. (but that's a whole other flame war).

If you've got some spare time, (a week or two,) try looking thru some of the threads on the RHoD Index of Threads and Resources (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=855450) In your case, go to some of the recaps, and read thru how other DMs and their parties have handled chapter 1. Compare those stories to the one you and your players have generated so far. See what you might have done different. Read ahead to see how some of the next encounters got handled.

Ask questions, you'll get answers. RHoD is fairly hot over in DnD Adventures (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26) so take a look, and get all the advice and opinions you can stand.

Gerry
allenchan
06-08-07, 02:21 AM Please, tell me where I'm going wrong here. Yes, the players are largely tactical novices right now, but they really haven't done anything out-and-out stupid yet. Is Red Hand really suitable for a 5th-level party that's half newcomers? Is there a reasonable way to make it so, short of halving the monster count?

I just have to say, tromping up to a rumored-to-be-haunted keep when there's lots of recent gobliniod raids, and casting light on your shield as you go explore it does strike me as out-and-out stupid. I mean, at least cast silence on a rock and carry it around, thats fairly basic as far as tactics go.
MochiGohan
06-08-07, 03:28 AM Funny thiing is that my DM thinks the encounters of RHOD are a walk in the park..

Our party contains a bard, cleric, wizard, barbarian/fighter and a sorcerer.

The wizard diabled the hydra with a scroll of ray of stupidity and disabled the manticore with a scroll of curse of the putrid husK. The dragon at the bridge was down with 1 curse of the putrid Husk too (after that encounter the wizard used the 2 scrolls he wrote, and the DM banned the spell...)

I think the encounters are pretty hard too, if it wasn't for the wizard we would have lost a couple of party members in those encounters..
runestar
06-08-07, 03:45 AM Isn't RHoD supposed to be for a starting party of 6th lv, rather than 5?
Gerry
06-08-07, 08:49 AM Isn't RHoD supposed to be for a starting party of 6th lv, rather than 5?

The back cover says 6-12, the designer notes inside say 5-10. Take your pick. If you'd like, follow the index thread above, and check out the section of threads about running alternate levels. A few of those threads get into the 5-10 vs 6-12 debate.

Gerry
Psilon
06-08-07, 11:20 AM I just have to say, tromping up to a rumored-to-be-haunted keep when there's lots of recent gobliniod raids, and casting light on your shield as you go explore it does strike me as out-and-out stupid. I mean, at least cast silence on a rock and carry it around, thats fairly basic as far as tactics go.

Yes, the shield of light was pretty stupid. I was talking more about the character builds and things done once in combat. But even the hydra was kicking the ass of a slightly different group and that's basically a random encounter.

And thanks for the links, Gerry. I'll read them over this weekend and compile a few tips for myself and the players.
weepingminotaur
06-10-07, 10:52 AM RHOD is a difficult module. There is nothing wrong with your PCs finding it hard. A few things to keep in mind, though:

A lot of RHOD encounters presume the party contains a single-class wizard with ready access to area-affect damage spells like fireball. With stealth and the right planning, a wizard could destroy a good chunk of the Vraath Keep force during a surprise round. I gave my party access to a scroll of fireball and allowed them to plan their attack to their hearts' content. It was a tough battle, but they decimated most of the hobgoblins and forced Koth to flee, leaving his map behind.
As others have noted, your party really was quite careless in their approach to the keep. Don't reward stupidity.
With the barbarian unavailable, your party was very light on capable melee combatants, which probably made things tougher.

Near-TPKs can happen to anyone. My party, at the time of the Marauder Attack encounter, had no arcane spellcaster, and consequently, even though the average party level was 7, it almost became a TPK with a bunch of goblins surrounding each character while the invisible adept summoned hellhounds to flank and buffed his fighters.
runestar
06-10-07, 11:43 PM I flipped through the book at borders. My first impression was that it was quite the grinder module, not at all unlike CoTSQ. Basically, it seems to assume that you have at least 1-2 heavy tanks to both soak up damage and dish it out, a spellcaster with tons of area-affect spells and a healer to patch everyone up.

All in all the stereotypical dnd party makeup.:)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psilon 06-07-07, 12:45 AM	OK, so I'm pretty much a novice DM, but how sensible are the encounter ratings for Red Hand? I've run two sessions now, and both times only lame-ass tactics and occasional dice fudging have stopped us from total party kills. Seriously, I must not be getting something here. Before I go into further detail, we had a 5th-level party consisting of a rogue, favored soul, cleric, and psion [psychokineticist nuker]. There's also usually a barbarian, but that player was unavailable tonight. For example, take the ground level of Vraath Keep. The party unfortunately managed to alert the keep's forces by clanking around in full plate and casting light on one of the shields, so we had a fight consisting of a manticore, four hobgoblin veterans, two goblins, and their worg mounts. (Karkilan went upstairs to join the Wyrmlord as per tactics section.) How is, say, the barracks supposed to be an EL 5 encounter? Just by themselves the four hobgoblin veterans are CR 8 (4x CR 4 = 2x CR 6 = CR 8?), right? And this is a normal fight for a 5th-level party that can't rest every three rooms like in a standard dungeon crawl? Or the hydra. Sure, the EL matches the hydra's CR, but the whole bog/bridge thing basically negates flanking and therefore sneak attack. Please, tell me where I'm going wrong here. Yes, the players are largely tactical novices right now, but they really haven't done anything out-and-out stupid yet. Is Red Hand really suitable for a 5th-level party that's half newcomers? Is there a reasonable way to make it so, short of halving the monster count?
Eightbitmage 06-07-07, 12:57 AM	If you obey the tactics outlined in Red Hand of Doom it is a hard campaign. If you ignore the tactics outlined in Red Hand of Doom instead playing the emeny to thier intelligence the enemy actions begin to make more sense, and it becomes an IMPOSSIBLE campaign. You might consider bumping your PCs up a level or two, because if they are not good at planning and strategy, and to an extent power gaming, this game is going to completely destroy them.
StoneStokes 06-07-07, 03:13 AM	In both of those encounters, the PCs should have the option of retreating. The hydra isn't going to pursue them onto the bridge, as it is happy keeping to the cover of water and using its ambush technique for catching prey. If the manticore is still alive in Vraath Keep, and the PCs retreat, the hobgoblins would likely call off their own pursuit and let the manticore chase them down. He might even call off his pursuit after a bit. I think the designers sort of expect parties to need to retreat and regroup from time to time. This is something that might be lost on your players if they are a bit inexperienced. Solution: create a motivational poster for your players: "Discretion is the better part of valor." On the other hand, fudging dice rolls and pulling punches will only encourage your players to charge into every encounter headlong, thinking their DM will save them. This will become a downward spiral by the time of Chapter 5.
Psilon 06-07-07, 12:43 PM	Yeah, they actually retreated after clearing out the ground floor. I'm not really opposed to killing players, but I was reluctant to wipe the entire party out during the first real session. Felt too much like Paranoia. I'm thinking about the following changes for next week: 1. Five-player party even when people can't all make it. Create an understudy PC or two if necessary. 2. Kick everyone up to level 6. 3. Loosen the timeline restrictions. Also, quick question regarding XP: I calculate XP based on the individual challenge ratings of the foes faced, right? So Marauder Attack (the opening fight) would be scored as 12 CR1 troops, three CR3 foes, and a CR4? Thanks for the advice.
mvincent 06-07-07, 01:13 PM	Please, tell me where I'm going wrong here. Yes, the players are largely tactical novices right now, but they really haven't done anything out-and-out stupid yet. You are not doing anything wrong. RHoD is a hard module. My group has considerable tactical experience and still had a rough time of it. If your players are tactical novices, then you should definitely give them a level or two (and appropriate gear) before continuing.
Gerry 06-07-07, 11:40 PM	You're doing fine, and yes, that is the standard method of assigning XP. (but that's a whole other flame war). If you've got some spare time, (a week or two,) try looking thru some of the threads on the RHoD Index of Threads and Resources (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=855450) In your case, go to some of the recaps, and read thru how other DMs and their parties have handled chapter 1. Compare those stories to the one you and your players have generated so far. See what you might have done different. Read ahead to see how some of the next encounters got handled. Ask questions, you'll get answers. RHoD is fairly hot over in DnD Adventures (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26) so take a look, and get all the advice and opinions you can stand. Gerry
allenchan 06-08-07, 02:21 AM	Please, tell me where I'm going wrong here. Yes, the players are largely tactical novices right now, but they really haven't done anything out-and-out stupid yet. Is Red Hand really suitable for a 5th-level party that's half newcomers? Is there a reasonable way to make it so, short of halving the monster count? I just have to say, tromping up to a rumored-to-be-haunted keep when there's lots of recent gobliniod raids, and casting light on your shield as you go explore it does strike me as out-and-out stupid. I mean, at least cast silence on a rock and carry it around, thats fairly basic as far as tactics go.
MochiGohan 06-08-07, 03:28 AM	Funny thiing is that my DM thinks the encounters of RHOD are a walk in the park.. Our party contains a bard, cleric, wizard, barbarian/fighter and a sorcerer. The wizard diabled the hydra with a scroll of ray of stupidity and disabled the manticore with a scroll of curse of the putrid husK. The dragon at the bridge was down with 1 curse of the putrid Husk too (after that encounter the wizard used the 2 scrolls he wrote, and the DM banned the spell...) I think the encounters are pretty hard too, if it wasn't for the wizard we would have lost a couple of party members in those encounters..
runestar 06-08-07, 03:45 AM	Isn't RHoD supposed to be for a starting party of 6th lv, rather than 5?
Gerry 06-08-07, 08:49 AM	Isn't RHoD supposed to be for a starting party of 6th lv, rather than 5? The back cover says 6-12, the designer notes inside say 5-10. Take your pick. If you'd like, follow the index thread above, and check out the section of threads about running alternate levels. A few of those threads get into the 5-10 vs 6-12 debate. Gerry
Psilon 06-08-07, 11:20 AM	I just have to say, tromping up to a rumored-to-be-haunted keep when there's lots of recent gobliniod raids, and casting light on your shield as you go explore it does strike me as out-and-out stupid. I mean, at least cast silence on a rock and carry it around, thats fairly basic as far as tactics go. Yes, the shield of light was pretty stupid. I was talking more about the character builds and things done once in combat. But even the hydra was kicking the ass of a slightly different group and that's basically a random encounter. And thanks for the links, Gerry. I'll read them over this weekend and compile a few tips for myself and the players.
weepingminotaur 06-10-07, 10:52 AM	RHOD is a difficult module. There is nothing wrong with your PCs finding it hard. A few things to keep in mind, though: A lot of RHOD encounters presume the party contains a single-class wizard with ready access to area-affect damage spells like fireball. With stealth and the right planning, a wizard could destroy a good chunk of the Vraath Keep force during a surprise round. I gave my party access to a scroll of fireball and allowed them to plan their attack to their hearts' content. It was a tough battle, but they decimated most of the hobgoblins and forced Koth to flee, leaving his map behind. As others have noted, your party really was quite careless in their approach to the keep. Don't reward stupidity. With the barbarian unavailable, your party was very light on capable melee combatants, which probably made things tougher. Near-TPKs can happen to anyone. My party, at the time of the Marauder Attack encounter, had no arcane spellcaster, and consequently, even though the average party level was 7, it almost became a TPK with a bunch of goblins surrounding each character while the invisible adept summoned hellhounds to flank and buffed his fighters.
runestar 06-10-07, 11:43 PM	I flipped through the book at borders. My first impression was that it was quite the grinder module, not at all unlike CoTSQ. Basically, it seems to assume that you have at least 1-2 heavy tanks to both soak up damage and dish it out, a spellcaster with tons of area-affect spells and a healer to patch everyone up. All in all the stereotypical dnd party makeup.:)