Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quizzit 01-15-08, 10:39 PM	Hey guys, This may be a no brainer question, but where is the rules (if any) does it speak about what happens to your Reflex Save when grappled? Specifically, a group is grappled by Evard's Black Tenticles and say a Fireball is then tossed at them. Do they get a save?
Marcus Majarra 01-15-08, 11:42 PM	Yes. Reflex saves are not adversely affected by grapples, unless otherwise mentioned.
Quizzit 01-16-08, 05:11 PM	Now thats just silly.... If you are being held in a grapple (think Grecko (sp?) Roman) how the heck are you going to jump out of the way of something?! I suppose you could argue that you'd let go to jump out of the way, but whos to say your opponent won't let go?
darokinblade 01-16-08, 05:24 PM	Well, as a note, a reflex save isn't always getting out of the way completely. That would be evasion. But it may be ducking your head under your chest, or rolling to minimize the damage. Thus, half damage (Most reflex saves offer this). Under normal rules, unless you are helpless (i.e. unconscious) you are allowed a save normally. I find it more odd if you are being pinned than grappled, but thats just my opinion, not RAW. An interesting rule might be that an immobile character cannot make a reflex save, automatically failing, but that would be a house rule.
ZiggZagg 01-16-08, 06:03 PM	Well, there is a bit of precedent, as if a dragon has you grappled and held in his mouth, you get no reflex save
weasel0 01-16-08, 07:28 PM	well, when the grenade is stapled to your head, there's not really anywhere to get away from it. Same with the dragon. Within grappling, you can still move around and even if pinned, your pinn...er can be used to hide behind to make the reflex save.
PenderGrass 01-16-08, 09:18 PM	Reflex saves do not = movement. At least, not per RAW. :dragon: *****
weasel0 01-16-08, 11:38 PM	I figure, if one can move even an inch or so, you ought to get your reflex save. Now true, there is the luck of just happening to stand/sit/lay just right that the least dangerous part of the attack simply deals less damage. I was simply pointing out that if any movement is possible(wether it's sub/un/conciously move, a wind/wave/tree branch/whatever gets in the way) you get a reflex save. I'll also point out that a reflex save is based on what? Dexterity. What does the Dexterity score represent? Mobility. Yes, movement is not necessary for reflex saves(though the lack of which makes your score default to 0=-5), but it is the biggest component thereof. If there is no way to avoid/interfere with something, no reflex save. This usually defaults then to the attack roll but as with the dragon example(attacks that are specifically AoE), no amount of scrambling is going to get you out of the direct blast. Some things should really have common sense applied. YMMV. Specifically, a group is grappled by Evard's Black Tenticles and say a Fireball is then tossed at them. Do they get a save? Yes. They can still move around even if hampered. The tenticles themselves could block some of the blast. The hows are flavor text but mechanics... they still get the save.
PenderGrass 01-17-08, 12:20 AM	I figure, if one can move even an inch or so, you ought to get your reflex save. There is no game mechanic for such a small move. One way to view it, since you get a reflex save, regardless - is to see the save as a representation of a "miss" per se. Wizard wants to place a fireball at the exact height above the ground so he burns the giant's head but explodes safely above his allies' heads. The hill giant gets his save even though he is being held in position by several nets and chains. Hill giant makes his save. All that means is the wizard varied slightly off to one side or another. Therefore it does less damage (i.e., the hill giant made his save). :dragon: *****
weasel0 01-17-08, 01:03 AM	There is no game mechanic for such a small move. I don't disagree. I just see it more reliant on reaction seeing as that's the base stat for it in the first place. But even held in place by nets and chains, there's still enough slack for him to move a bit as well as all the other space for some kind of interference to happen. A wind current catches part of the blast. He turns his head and his hair is burned nearly to the scalp but it protects him from real harm. The gods simply favor this one. He leans backwards, or left, or right and is in less of the blast than if he'd stay stock still. In addition, all those chains and nets can amount to a fair amount of the giants skin being protected and mayhaps that's why he takes less damage. I see what your saying, but personally find it too narrow an approach. ... Lol, and honestly, it doesn't even really matter how they make the save or how we view it. We both agree he gets the save and that's what matters here isn't it? :)
PenderGrass 01-17-08, 01:06 AM	We both agree he gets the save and that's what matters here isn't it? :) I think we also both agree, there had best be a clear reason in the heads of everyone at the table why the hill giant was able to make a save. Irregardless of how well he was restrained. :dragon: *****
weasel0 01-17-08, 01:09 AM	I can agree with that too.
Merestil Haye 01-17-08, 08:07 AM	Well, there is a bit of precedent, as if a dragon has you grappled and held in his mouth, you get no reflex saveThis is not correct. If a dragon with the Snatch feat has you in its mouth then you get no Reflex save against the creature's breath weapon. You still get Reflex saves against everything else, because there is no effect in force denying you those saves. If the creature doesn't have the feat, you are not even denied a Reflex save against thee breath.