Reflex saves, when and when not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reflex saves, when and when not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
M-bark
03-09-08, 04:42 PM This came up in our last gaming session. In which conditions is someone denied a Reflex save?

For instance, in our last gaming session, three of the characters were sitting in the living room of the house of one of the characters. A LN Half-Fiend Drow Wizard 5//Rogue 5 (it's a Gestalt game), whom had been travelling with one of the characters for a while to exact revenge on one of the others because he had violated the law, had snuck into the house and was standing in the kitchen, hand on the doorknob. He cast Darkness on his Thunderstone and opened the door and threw it inside. Two characters became deafened. All became effectively blinded because of the Darkness.

Just to note, the characters consist of the following:

A LG Half-Gold Dragon Woodling Human Paladin 5//Cleric (Good and Sun domains) 5, who owned the house.
A CN (used to be CG) Half-Celestial High Elf Barbarian 5//Ranger 5 who was the one who had violated the law by chopping a guard who was merely doing his job in half with his greatsword (his 26 Str score helped him on that).
A CN Half-Celestial High Elf Ranger 5//Druid 5 who is the one the Half-Fiend Drow had travelled with.

The Woodling and Ranger//Druid were the ones to become blinded.

After this, the Half-Fiend Drow cast Fireball, hitting the opposite wall of the living room. Unfortunately for him, the living room was only 15 ft wide and broad. Fortunately, he had Evasion.

Now came the Reflex save issue.

Since everyone was blinded, I figured they would not know what was coming, thus being denied their Reflex save. The Half-Fiend Drow did know what was coming, so I figured he could still have the benefits of being allowed a Reflex save, even though the DC for it was so very high because of his skyrocketing Intelligence score.

The player of the Ranger/Druid vehemently disagreed with this course of action, and demanded that I could show him what penalties being blinded and deafened who pose him. So I picked up my PHB and searched the last couple of pages for their definitions. Since neither said anything about Reflex saves, it was argued everyone should get a Reflex save. For the sake of getting along with the game, as well as the fact that we are playing more by RAW than RAI at current, unless it is totally insane, I gave them their Reflex saves.

Only the Ranger//Druid made it. The Woodling took no damage thanks to his Diplomatic Fire Immunity. None took a lot of damage, still.

So what do you people think about this ordeal? Do you think that characters who do not know what's coming (in cases were Dex bonus to AC is denied, for instance, just as you have when blinded) should be denied their Reflex saves?
Tedronai
03-09-08, 06:08 PM Not only do they get their reflex saves, but they are not 'effectively blinded'.

Reflex saves are not in any way hampered by being blind, flat-footed, surprised, denied Dex to AC, and is only even penalized for an immobile character (treat their dex score as 0, but they still get to roll the save with the appropriate modifier: -5 instead of their usual dex).
Not only that, but Darkness only emits 'shadowy illumination' which, while it darkens the area and provides concleament, does not plunge the area into total darkness.

A reflex save is only denied in a situation for which the rules expressly state as much. For instance, a creature being held in a dragon's mouth while being subjected to that same dragon's breath weapon.
Lord_Varos
03-10-08, 12:52 AM If you're having trouble rationalizing the rules as they are for "realism's" sake, consider that saves occur after the victim becomes aware of the attack. The rogue does not roll away when he sees the dragon rear back and prepare to breathe fire-he gets out of the way when he feels the flame lick his heels, when he has absolutely does not have any more time to evade damage. The wizard does not erect his mental defenses against being Dominated before the spell is finished, he puts up a fight when the spell is already in his mind, trying to wrap its icy, fiendish tentacles over his consciousness.
Cranewings
03-11-08, 05:37 PM This idea is more how I play, and certainly not cannon:

The entire point of tactics is to deny your enemy their reflex saving throw.

Why shoot a fireball at an enemy in an open field with scattered rubble when I can lead him into a cave and fill the whole thing up with flame? Luring the enemy into a cave before casting fireball is a tactic that would deny a character their saving throw.

Anyone watch Avatar? There are tons of dodgy characters in that show but when Azula makes a solid bluff check and drops a lightening bolt on the unsuspecting hero, they take it to the chest and get dropped in one hit.

If the villians have the forsite to ambush the party, then the party should be in for the fight of their lives. Giving them a reflex saving throw is a "fair rule" written for 8 year olds. Adults can play without kids gloves.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm
03-11-08, 06:05 PM This idea is more how I play, and certainly not cannon:

The entire point of tactics is to deny your enemy their reflex saving throw.

Why shoot a fireball at an enemy in an open field with scattered rubble when I can lead him into a cave and fill the whole thing up with flame? Luring the enemy into a cave before casting fireball is a tactic that would deny a character their saving throw.

Anyone watch Avatar? There are tons of dodgy characters in that show but when Azula makes a solid bluff check and drops a lightening bolt on the unsuspecting hero, they take it to the chest and get dropped in one hit.

If the villians have the forsite to ambush the party, then the party should be in for the fight of their lives. Giving them a reflex saving throw is a "fair rule" written for 8 year olds. Adults can play without kids gloves.

There is so much wrong this I don't even know where to start.

First off the DM in question ran the encounter wrong. Darkness is not horrible debilitating blindness. It is shadowy illumination which does nothing to hinder any sort of reflex save. The effects of this spell are clearly explained within the spell and within the glossary if you need further explanation on the effects of concealment.

Second why play D&D if you feel the need to house rule everything to fit your idea of realism?

Regardless your opinion on this matter is irrelevant as this is the DM Rules Counseling forum where people come to discuss the rules.

If you want your bad guys to use "tactics" have them use tactics that are appropriate to the mechanics of the game world. Not ones that make sense to you in real life.
Cranewings
03-11-08, 06:29 PM I play dungeons and dragons because people need to have rules on how to make their characters. Just because I think that most of the rules were written to make it a friendly game for the 8-10 crowd doesn't mean I won't play it. I'm just going to exercise my god given right to fix my problems with it.

Did I say anything about the Darkness spell? I was talking, in general. Maybe he house ruled darkness so it is REAL dark. Maybe it was a 4th level spell slot version of darkness. The darkness spell was way far off from my point.

I like your used of italics there. Clearly they show that my example of "tactics" was subpar. In the future, I'll be sure to site a source. lolz

I think the original posters players were being annoying by looking up rules in the middle of the game. HEAVEN FORBID a gm run a combat without someone looking up red tape, bogging the whole thing down. I wouldn't want someone to feel failure in a rpg for two seconds. Clearly, every hero wins every fight. That must be what dnd is about.
Wih
03-12-08, 01:38 AM Pretty much what it comes down to is that you are never denied a Reflex save for an effect, unless something explicitly says so (such as a Spellwarp Sniper, or a Dragon using the Snatch feat with it's breath weapon). Even if the character is paralysed or unable to move, they still get to make the save, they just have their Dex considered to be 0, and thus a -5 modifier (rather than whatever it normally is).
This is representational of not only skill in dodging, but also luck on your part (where you happen to be, which way you're facing etc, if your sensitive bits are not in direct fire etc) and intensity of the effect in your specific area.

If you want to houserule in your games, I personally wouldn't mind if I was playing in it, as long as you're consistent - if something is used against me, I would expect the chance to use it in the future. Sit down with the rest of the gaming group and discuss what you want the rule to be, and write it down so that next time it comes up there isn't any confusion, and remember that the rule will effect PCs and NPCs alike.
Cranewings
03-12-08, 05:03 AM The -5 reflex save when dex is denied isn't a bad idea. (Is that a double negative?) (;

Would you still get your level adjustment?

I could see a natural 20, or maybe a 19+ being a save for a held character. Maybe the fear gets them to scramble and push through the spell or whatever for a moment. A high level rogue with lightening reflexes might still save on a low number. It would seem a little silly.

"You start to worm across the floor and inch towards the door as the mage finishes his spell. A fireball darts across the room, striking the back wall and filling the entire building with fire. Even with your hands and feet bound, you managed to get to the door. The shockwave picks up your body and flings it into the yard. You saved, so with evasion, take 0 damage."
Merestil Haye
03-12-08, 07:23 AM The -5 reflex save when dex is denied isn't a bad idea. (Is that a double negative?) (;

Would you still get your level adjustment?You get everything except that you replace your normal Dex mod with -5 instead.

Again, if something is giving you a benefit and nothing else is removing the benefit, you apply it in all circumstances. The game rules define what is and is not "realistic" in-game. Your own real-world experiences are largely irrelevant. Only where the game rules (or setting info) are silent can you apply RL expectations, and this is not an area where the rules are silent.

So the character gets his base save bonus, gets the resistance bonus from items he may be wearing, gets any bonus he may have from special circumstances - unless something says, in black-and-white, that he is denied them.

Fireball isn't homogeneous. No area effect is; there are hot spots and cool spots inside the affected volume. There's simply no other conclusion to be drawn from the fact that a Small rogue at ground zero (ie the Fireball detonates on one of the corners of their space) can escape without harm. The rogue does not move out of the Fireball's volume and back, because it's not their turn and they cannot move at all (unless impelled by an outside force). So they must find a cool spot inside the space they occupy, and their natural resilliency and luck does the rest.

A helpless creature's inability to move is modelled by replacing their regular Dex modifier with a -5 penalty, thus a successful save indicates that, by sheer luck, the creature finds itself in one of those cool spots. And just think a moment. When was the last time you saw a PC with a Dex under 8? That -5 modifier represents a minimum reduction of 4 in the Reflex save modifier.
Cranewings
03-12-08, 12:26 PM I'm going to disagree with your comment that my real world experience is irrelevant. I think it is. Sense I'm the one that puts the effort into organizing the game, I can run it however I want.

I have a lot of house rules I play with, and I let the players know at the start of the game about them. If someone surprises me with a crappy rule that they need to take advantage, I'll let them use it. The next week though, that rule will be gone.

As far as a fireball not being homogeneous, neither is a hand grenade. That doesn't mean that skill, experience, or physical prowess will help you find the path the shrapnel will take. Either you get to cover, or you stand next to it and HOPE for the best.

Finding the cool spot in the fire ball would have more to do with a low damage roll against a high hitpoint total IMHO.

I actually have a cleric in my group with a dexterity of 5.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-12-08, 01:25 PM Given that this particular subforum is about clarifying RAW, yes, your real world experience actually is completely irrelevant in situations for which there are clearly defined rules to follow.
Salla
03-12-08, 03:14 PM Given that this particular subforum is about clarifying RAW, yes, your real world experience actually is completely irrelevant in situations for which there are clearly defined rules to follow.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/spock_win.jpg
Cranewings
03-12-08, 04:09 PM Funny, I was detecting large amounts of suck and boring. Later.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm
03-12-08, 05:36 PM I will never understand why people come to the rules forum and then try to promote their house rules.

Oh well, thread over.
PenderGrass
03-12-08, 08:42 PM Oh well, thread over.
Shoot.

And I was gonna say how cool it was to see Spock being so young again.

:dragon:
*****
new_fashion_guy
03-14-08, 03:16 PM Shoot.

And I was gonna say how cool it was to see Spock being so young again.

:dragon:
*****

Yeah, pretty soon he's gonna turn into Zachary Quinto!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
M-bark 03-09-08, 04:42 PM	This came up in our last gaming session. In which conditions is someone denied a Reflex save? For instance, in our last gaming session, three of the characters were sitting in the living room of the house of one of the characters. A LN Half-Fiend Drow Wizard 5//Rogue 5 (it's a Gestalt game), whom had been travelling with one of the characters for a while to exact revenge on one of the others because he had violated the law, had snuck into the house and was standing in the kitchen, hand on the doorknob. He cast Darkness on his Thunderstone and opened the door and threw it inside. Two characters became deafened. All became effectively blinded because of the Darkness. Just to note, the characters consist of the following: A LG Half-Gold Dragon Woodling Human Paladin 5//Cleric (Good and Sun domains) 5, who owned the house. A CN (used to be CG) Half-Celestial High Elf Barbarian 5//Ranger 5 who was the one who had violated the law by chopping a guard who was merely doing his job in half with his greatsword (his 26 Str score helped him on that). A CN Half-Celestial High Elf Ranger 5//Druid 5 who is the one the Half-Fiend Drow had travelled with. The Woodling and Ranger//Druid were the ones to become blinded. After this, the Half-Fiend Drow cast Fireball, hitting the opposite wall of the living room. Unfortunately for him, the living room was only 15 ft wide and broad. Fortunately, he had Evasion. Now came the Reflex save issue. Since everyone was blinded, I figured they would not know what was coming, thus being denied their Reflex save. The Half-Fiend Drow did know what was coming, so I figured he could still have the benefits of being allowed a Reflex save, even though the DC for it was so very high because of his skyrocketing Intelligence score. The player of the Ranger/Druid vehemently disagreed with this course of action, and demanded that I could show him what penalties being blinded and deafened who pose him. So I picked up my PHB and searched the last couple of pages for their definitions. Since neither said anything about Reflex saves, it was argued everyone should get a Reflex save. For the sake of getting along with the game, as well as the fact that we are playing more by RAW than RAI at current, unless it is totally insane, I gave them their Reflex saves. Only the Ranger//Druid made it. The Woodling took no damage thanks to his Diplomatic Fire Immunity. None took a lot of damage, still. So what do you people think about this ordeal? Do you think that characters who do not know what's coming (in cases were Dex bonus to AC is denied, for instance, just as you have when blinded) should be denied their Reflex saves?
Tedronai 03-09-08, 06:08 PM	Not only do they get their reflex saves, but they are not 'effectively blinded'. Reflex saves are not in any way hampered by being blind, flat-footed, surprised, denied Dex to AC, and is only even penalized for an immobile character (treat their dex score as 0, but they still get to roll the save with the appropriate modifier: -5 instead of their usual dex). Not only that, but Darkness only emits 'shadowy illumination' which, while it darkens the area and provides concleament, does not plunge the area into total darkness. A reflex save is only denied in a situation for which the rules expressly state as much. For instance, a creature being held in a dragon's mouth while being subjected to that same dragon's breath weapon.
Lord_Varos 03-10-08, 12:52 AM	If you're having trouble rationalizing the rules as they are for "realism's" sake, consider that saves occur after the victim becomes aware of the attack. The rogue does not roll away when he sees the dragon rear back and prepare to breathe fire-he gets out of the way when he feels the flame lick his heels, when he has absolutely does not have any more time to evade damage. The wizard does not erect his mental defenses against being Dominated before the spell is finished, he puts up a fight when the spell is already in his mind, trying to wrap its icy, fiendish tentacles over his consciousness.
Cranewings 03-11-08, 05:37 PM	This idea is more how I play, and certainly not cannon: The entire point of tactics is to deny your enemy their reflex saving throw. Why shoot a fireball at an enemy in an open field with scattered rubble when I can lead him into a cave and fill the whole thing up with flame? Luring the enemy into a cave before casting fireball is a tactic that would deny a character their saving throw. Anyone watch Avatar? There are tons of dodgy characters in that show but when Azula makes a solid bluff check and drops a lightening bolt on the unsuspecting hero, they take it to the chest and get dropped in one hit. If the villians have the forsite to ambush the party, then the party should be in for the fight of their lives. Giving them a reflex saving throw is a "fair rule" written for 8 year olds. Adults can play without kids gloves.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 03-11-08, 06:05 PM	This idea is more how I play, and certainly not cannon: The entire point of tactics is to deny your enemy their reflex saving throw. Why shoot a fireball at an enemy in an open field with scattered rubble when I can lead him into a cave and fill the whole thing up with flame? Luring the enemy into a cave before casting fireball is a tactic that would deny a character their saving throw. Anyone watch Avatar? There are tons of dodgy characters in that show but when Azula makes a solid bluff check and drops a lightening bolt on the unsuspecting hero, they take it to the chest and get dropped in one hit. If the villians have the forsite to ambush the party, then the party should be in for the fight of their lives. Giving them a reflex saving throw is a "fair rule" written for 8 year olds. Adults can play without kids gloves. There is so much wrong this I don't even know where to start. First off the DM in question ran the encounter wrong. Darkness is not horrible debilitating blindness. It is shadowy illumination which does nothing to hinder any sort of reflex save. The effects of this spell are clearly explained within the spell and within the glossary if you need further explanation on the effects of concealment. Second why play D&D if you feel the need to house rule everything to fit your idea of realism? Regardless your opinion on this matter is irrelevant as this is the DM Rules Counseling forum where people come to discuss the rules. If you want your bad guys to use "tactics" have them use tactics that are appropriate to the mechanics of the game world. Not ones that make sense to you in real life.
Cranewings 03-11-08, 06:29 PM	I play dungeons and dragons because people need to have rules on how to make their characters. Just because I think that most of the rules were written to make it a friendly game for the 8-10 crowd doesn't mean I won't play it. I'm just going to exercise my god given right to fix my problems with it. Did I say anything about the Darkness spell? I was talking, in general. Maybe he house ruled darkness so it is REAL dark. Maybe it was a 4th level spell slot version of darkness. The darkness spell was way far off from my point. I like your used of italics there. Clearly they show that my example of "tactics" was subpar. In the future, I'll be sure to site a source. lolz I think the original posters players were being annoying by looking up rules in the middle of the game. HEAVEN FORBID a gm run a combat without someone looking up red tape, bogging the whole thing down. I wouldn't want someone to feel failure in a rpg for two seconds. Clearly, every hero wins every fight. That must be what dnd is about.
Wih 03-12-08, 01:38 AM	Pretty much what it comes down to is that you are never denied a Reflex save for an effect, unless something explicitly says so (such as a Spellwarp Sniper, or a Dragon using the Snatch feat with it's breath weapon). Even if the character is paralysed or unable to move, they still get to make the save, they just have their Dex considered to be 0, and thus a -5 modifier (rather than whatever it normally is). This is representational of not only skill in dodging, but also luck on your part (where you happen to be, which way you're facing etc, if your sensitive bits are not in direct fire etc) and intensity of the effect in your specific area. If you want to houserule in your games, I personally wouldn't mind if I was playing in it, as long as you're consistent - if something is used against me, I would expect the chance to use it in the future. Sit down with the rest of the gaming group and discuss what you want the rule to be, and write it down so that next time it comes up there isn't any confusion, and remember that the rule will effect PCs and NPCs alike.
Cranewings 03-12-08, 05:03 AM	The -5 reflex save when dex is denied isn't a bad idea. (Is that a double negative?) (; Would you still get your level adjustment? I could see a natural 20, or maybe a 19+ being a save for a held character. Maybe the fear gets them to scramble and push through the spell or whatever for a moment. A high level rogue with lightening reflexes might still save on a low number. It would seem a little silly. "You start to worm across the floor and inch towards the door as the mage finishes his spell. A fireball darts across the room, striking the back wall and filling the entire building with fire. Even with your hands and feet bound, you managed to get to the door. The shockwave picks up your body and flings it into the yard. You saved, so with evasion, take 0 damage."
Merestil Haye 03-12-08, 07:23 AM	The -5 reflex save when dex is denied isn't a bad idea. (Is that a double negative?) (; Would you still get your level adjustment?You get everything except that you replace your normal Dex mod with -5 instead. Again, if something is giving you a benefit and nothing else is removing the benefit, you apply it in all circumstances. The game rules define what is and is not "realistic" in-game. Your own real-world experiences are largely irrelevant. Only where the game rules (or setting info) are silent can you apply RL expectations, and this is not an area where the rules are silent. So the character gets his base save bonus, gets the resistance bonus from items he may be wearing, gets any bonus he may have from special circumstances - unless something says, in black-and-white, that he is denied them. Fireball isn't homogeneous. No area effect is; there are hot spots and cool spots inside the affected volume. There's simply no other conclusion to be drawn from the fact that a Small rogue at ground zero (ie the Fireball detonates on one of the corners of their space) can escape without harm. The rogue does not move out of the Fireball's volume and back, because it's not their turn and they cannot move at all (unless impelled by an outside force). So they must find a cool spot inside the space they occupy, and their natural resilliency and luck does the rest. A helpless creature's inability to move is modelled by replacing their regular Dex modifier with a -5 penalty, thus a successful save indicates that, by sheer luck, the creature finds itself in one of those cool spots. And just think a moment. When was the last time you saw a PC with a Dex under 8? That -5 modifier represents a minimum reduction of 4 in the Reflex save modifier.
Cranewings 03-12-08, 12:26 PM	I'm going to disagree with your comment that my real world experience is irrelevant. I think it is. Sense I'm the one that puts the effort into organizing the game, I can run it however I want. I have a lot of house rules I play with, and I let the players know at the start of the game about them. If someone surprises me with a crappy rule that they need to take advantage, I'll let them use it. The next week though, that rule will be gone. As far as a fireball not being homogeneous, neither is a hand grenade. That doesn't mean that skill, experience, or physical prowess will help you find the path the shrapnel will take. Either you get to cover, or you stand next to it and HOPE for the best. Finding the cool spot in the fire ball would have more to do with a low damage roll against a high hitpoint total IMHO. I actually have a cleric in my group with a dexterity of 5.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-12-08, 01:25 PM	Given that this particular subforum is about clarifying RAW, yes, your real world experience actually is completely irrelevant in situations for which there are clearly defined rules to follow.
Salla 03-12-08, 03:14 PM	Given that this particular subforum is about clarifying RAW, yes, your real world experience actually is completely irrelevant in situations for which there are clearly defined rules to follow. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/spock_win.jpg
Cranewings 03-12-08, 04:09 PM	Funny, I was detecting large amounts of suck and boring. Later.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 03-12-08, 05:36 PM	I will never understand why people come to the rules forum and then try to promote their house rules. Oh well, thread over.
PenderGrass 03-12-08, 08:42 PM	Oh well, thread over. Shoot. And I was gonna say how cool it was to see Spock being so young again. :dragon: *****
new_fashion_guy 03-14-08, 03:16 PM	Shoot. And I was gonna say how cool it was to see Spock being so young again. :dragon: ***** Yeah, pretty soon he's gonna turn into Zachary Quinto!