Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metafictional 04-09-08, 03:31 PM	I'm looking in the rules, but I can't seem to find any case in which you are denied your Reflex save. Rogues lose the benefits of Evasion if they can't move, but it never seems to state you can't make a Reflex save if you can't move. The specific reason I'm asking about this is that a player was wondering if a Blind target can reasonably avoid a Lightning Bolt spell. The Blinded condition doesn't even seem to penalize Reflex saves (although it penalizes just about everything else Dex-based). I'll accept both RAW and suggestions on this topic, so I can make my own house ruling. Thank you very much for your time.
Merestil Haye 04-09-08, 03:54 PM	If a spell or effect allows a reflex save, then the creature gets that save unless another effect or condition explicitly denies it. For an example of something that denies a Reflex save, see the Snatch feat in the Monster Manual. If a condition does not say it denies Reflex saves, it does not deny Reflex saves. There's an extensive discussion in the FAQ on when a creature may make a Reflex save.
Eerongal 04-09-08, 04:03 PM	just to build on what has previously been said, note that while you are generally not denied a reflex save when it seems you would, you still take in to account dex penalties into the save. For example, and unconcious person is not denied a reflex save, HOWEVER, while unconcious you are considered to have a dex of 0, which puts a -5 to your reflex saves.
Jackmojo 04-09-08, 04:39 PM	I'm looking in the rules, but I can't seem to find any case in which you are denied your Reflex save. Rogues lose the benefits of Evasion if they can't move, but it never seems to state you can't make a Reflex save if you can't move. The specific reason I'm asking about this is that a player was wondering if a Blind target can reasonably avoid a Lightning Bolt spell. The Blinded condition doesn't even seem to penalize Reflex saves (although it penalizes just about everything else Dex-based). I'll accept both RAW and suggestions on this topic, so I can make my own house ruling. Thank you very much for your time. The thing to remember is saving throws don't necessarily represent something as simple as dodging or what have you, they also can represent direct divine intervention, fate etc... (I forget the exact quote but its in the PHB or DMG saving throw section), I find that so long as I keep that in mind the oddness of reflex saves is less bothersome. Jack
1 ton ghost 04-10-08, 12:25 PM	No easy way to gauge it, but you're almost always elligible for a Reflex. Even unconsious which staggers the imagination. I know, fake as all Hell, but a balancer nonetheless. Given that theoretical Blind victim vs. incoming Lightning Bolt; he gets a Save no doubt about that, but he's lost his Dex adjustment for being blind. Oh, is that just for AC'es (touch, normal, etc) or does that also applly to Reflex? It stands to reason it shoud, but don't quote me on that. No PHB here right now, sorry.
Some_call_me_Tim 04-13-08, 09:32 PM	The specific reason I'm asking about this is that a player was wondering if a Blind target can reasonably avoid a Lightning Bolt spell. The Blinded condition doesn't even seem to penalize Reflex saves (although it penalizes just about everything else Dex-based).I can't find anything in the rules that imposes any penalty or denies a saving throw. I have vague recollections of denying saving throws in extreme cases such as a character in a dragon's mouth doesn't get a reflex save, but then again that might be from a different version and I don't think it is quite that extreme here. I wouldn't apply extra penalties that aren't listed in the rules, unless you are absolutely positive they are needed. Also think of the consequences. If a blind target can't avoid a lightning bolt then what about a lightning bolt cast by an invisible mage? Ah, one of those slippery slope questions. How could a blind person avoid a lightning bolt? He could still hear it being cast. He could be lucky. The Gods could take pity on him. I'll accept both RAW and suggestions on this topic, so I can make my own house ruling.My suggestion is to not impose a penalty that is not in the rules-as-written. If you really feel you must; use the good old standby of a -2 circumstance modifier.
toucanbuzz 04-14-08, 11:01 AM	Sometimes your "spidey-senses" tell you danger is coming a split second before it hits. Even a blinded person may get that "feeling" right before danger comes and leap away. But, sometimes you have to ignore the rules, imo, and make a DM ruling when the situation becomes absurd. (High level rogue is sleeping in his bed and evades multiple fireballs). Second Edition talked about "inescapable situations" where there were no saves (talking about instant death, but principle applies). These should be rare and a direct result of a PC's decision making, but I say don't be scared to declare it.
Tedronai 04-14-08, 07:20 PM	Sometimes your "spidey-senses" tell you danger is coming a split second before it hits. Even a blinded person may get that "feeling" right before danger comes and leap away. But, sometimes you have to ignore the rules, imo, and make a DM ruling when the situation becomes absurd. (High level rogue is sleeping in his bed and evades multiple fireballs). Second Edition talked about "inescapable situations" where there were no saves (talking about instant death, but principle applies). These should be rare and a direct result of a PC's decision making, but I say don't be scared to declare it. A sleeping character is helpless. Helpless characters don't get evasion. The rogue neglects to evade the fireballs. However, the flash of light produced by the fire causes an instinctive reaction in the rogue to roll and tuck within the blankets such as to protect their vitals from the flame which follows immediately afterwards (taking half damage, just like anyone else would who made their save).
Captain_Madrick 04-19-08, 02:42 AM	The Night Twist is a tree, rooted in the ground, from MM3. It gets a reflex save. A stationary tree still gets to reflex vs. a fireball. I think a blind person can pull it off...
Merestil Haye 04-19-08, 07:02 AM	The Night Twist is a tree, rooted in the ground, from MM3. It gets a reflex save. A stationary tree still gets to reflex vs. a fireball. I think a blind person can pull it off...As a matter of fact, the Night Twist is not "rooted in the ground". It has a Dexterity score and a movement speed, therefore it is not stationary. Compare a Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm#shrieker). It has a Dex score of "--" (not zero, notice). It has no movement speed, because as it has a Dexterity nonability, it cannot move. It automatically fails Reflex saves. The mere fact that the Night Twist has a Dex score means it can make a save.
foxtail 04-23-08, 09:10 AM	You lose your Reflex save if you're dead. That's about it, unless a spell or effect specifically mentions it (for example, being caught in a dragon's mouth when it uses its breath weapon, as per the Snatch feat).
tos_shai_hulud 04-23-08, 04:48 PM	This might help: Nonabilities Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below. Strength Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength. A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move. The creature automatically fails Strength checks. If the creature can attack, it applies its Dexterity modifier to its base attack bonus instead of a Strength modifier. Dexterity Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks. Constitution Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run). Intelligence Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses. Wisdom Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score. Charisma Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
Some_call_me_Tim 04-23-08, 07:36 PM	From the SRD: Ability Score Loss Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain). While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating. * Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. * Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. * Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. * Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. * Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. * Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. Although you can't move if you a no dexterity, that doesn't mean you have no dexterity when you can't move. Confusing huh? Theoretically you could have zero strength and unable to move but by the rules-as-written you could still make a reflex saving throw (albeit at a -5 penalty because you are helpless).
Lootus 04-24-08, 10:07 AM	The thing to remember is saving throws don't necessarily represent something as simple as dodging or what have you, they also can represent direct divine intervention, fate etc... (I forget the exact quote but its in the PHB or DMG saving throw section), I find that so long as I keep that in mind the oddness of reflex saves is less bothersome. Jack I agree with this - the save represents some luck factor as well, so a blind person could still duck out of the way simply by accident, although a penalty for being blinded might still apply. Also, I wouldn't allow a player to say, glitterdust a creature and then cast a follow-up spell with no save.
Evil DM Mk3 04-28-08, 01:45 PM	The problem is that whilst there are plenty of occasions where logic says you would lose your reflex save, comparable situations for Fort and Will are much MUCH thinner on the ground. As such if you where to loose it Reflex saves would become all the weaker. Imagine, if you will, a spell that kills on a failed reflex save (none exist to my knowledge but it would not be that hard to imagine) or merely incapacitates you or even simply allows reflex for half damage. If an immobile character was not able to make the save the spells power is artificaly inflated several levels. Hold person (one spell that ought to deney the save) is not high level at all and a 2-1 combo with it would be far too abusable, prehaps even putting damage dealing spells back in an even footing with batwizard style spells.