Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drakken2672 05-23-07, 07:03 PM	Ok, I have recently re-read the rogue sneak attack four part series on the main boards and I am confused or maybe just a DM unhappy with the possibilities. I pose this problem to the masses for pondering. warrior 4 /rogue 16 (human) feats that matter ex. wpn prof spiked chain adaptive flanker vexing flanker weapon finese with haste from a wizard this means a 20th lvl character can get 5 sneak attacks in one round. for a total of 40d6 (if they all hit). god forbid you go two weapon fighting with monkey grip and an enlarged rogue. does anyone besides me see an issue with this or does it just seem unbalanced because i don't want this insanity flooding into my game? That just seems to way overshadow any other damage dealing class near that level. thanks for your input and comments, I look forward to hearing your ideas.
darkneolink 05-23-07, 07:19 PM	well yeah sneak attack can get pretty sneaky For example a Gestalt Monk20/rogue20 we have the monks flurry + SA and every attack gets SA that would be around 5 attacks with +10d6 each so it would be 10d10(on an unarmed strike)+50d6 on average it would be 50+150= 200HP (+other modifiers) doesn't sound too hard around level 20 does it and if he hited an undead,golem or ooze he wont be doing any of that pretty SA damage 40d6 do around 120HP on average (+other modifiers) thats not too broken on that level I mean power word kill is an autokill Finger of death is a save or die spell (and makes3d6+1 per caster level if the creature saves) and is a 7 level spell for the sorc/wiz(8 for the druid) so... that is not too broken (and I came with my best Ideas) so don't worry
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-23-07, 08:27 PM	1: monkey grip isnt worth it, espechaly for a rogue. 2: those later itteratave attacks are vastly less likly to hit, of those 5 attacks a round (for say 1 encounter before hates runs out) 2 or three will miss completly. 3: Twfing reduses your chanse to hit, yes if you get lucky it pays off, but what happens when you dont? 4: bottom line is that Sneak attack looks more scary on paper than it is in game.
Nom 05-23-07, 11:22 PM	with haste from a wizard this means a 20th lvl character can get 5 sneak attacks in one round. for a total of 40d6 (if they all hit).(1) If they all hit and (2) if you have someone to flank with and (3) if you survive standing in melee range for a round while waiting to full attack. In my game, the PCs recently fought a 13 HD / CR 8 advanced greater barghest. With the help of haste and some buffs his attack routine was bite +26/+26 (1d8+12) and 2 claws +21 (1d6+7). If everything hits he did 2d8+2d6+38 ~= 64 points. And he had 123 hp. Your rogue can manage 40d6 + 5 * weapon damage, assuming even his crummy iterative attacks hit. 40d6 averages only 140 points, which is enough to take down the barghest. Meanwhile, 64 points, while not as impressive, will likely take out half a 20th level rogue's hit points, perhaps more. And that's against a CR 8 opponent. Oh, did I mention that the barghest was blinking (until he was dimensionally anchored)? Concealment = no sneak attack. And this is only a CR 8. It looks scary on paper, but actually doing it? You're more likely to land a disintegrate (also 40d6 at 20th level), and that's not even a save-or-die.
Karui_Kage 05-24-07, 01:24 AM	Yes, rogues can get a lot of sneak attacks. I only did the TWF thing with a 3 Rogue though (I think it was 3 Rogue/7 Ranger/10 Tempest, 3.0-3.5), so it was only 2d6 extra. A higher rogue can get more, but remember, only on a full attack, and if flanking (or if improved invised, but that only lasts so long). Most of the time he'll be moving around, and get one attack each time. It's really not that bad. Rogues usually have lots of dice of damage, but not much pure damage (str, weapon spec, power attack, etc.). They balance out in the end.
Light_Colonel 05-24-07, 07:55 AM	Yeah Rogues can do a lot of damage with Sneak. Unless what they are fighting is: Undead Ooze Construct Several Flavors of Abberration Not able to be Snuck due to: Improved Uncanny Dodge to preventing flank Blindsight to avoid Invis Armor of Fortification AC so high the Rogue *can't* hit So yeah, Rogues are scary, but as a DM I don't worry about my Rogues getting a little Sneak attack action in.
Drakken2672 05-24-07, 08:53 PM	I appreciate the comments... Maybe I could clarify my problem with this to possibly get a more clear response. lets go with an example maybe people can stay with me. 20th fighter +20 BA +6 str +3 weapon +2 weapon focus Total: +31/+26/+21/+16 rogue i described above +16 BA +6 dex (finese) +3 weapon +4 vexing/adaptive flanker total: +29/+24/+19 And with the vexing and adaptive flanker the rogue can flank by himself he doesn't need anyone near him. I admit you have to get creative with enlarge person and a monkey grip weapon if you want to go beyond i think that covers huge or gargantuan for flanking. I truthfully think that unless i'm overlooking some big something that the rogue only is sitting at about 10% less hit chance than the fighter. I think most AC's in the cr 20 range is sitting at 30ish maybe 35ish(don't have books nearby). Maybe with these more clear examples I can get some more responses as to how to control, manipulate or limit what i see as a potentially devastating combo (gotta love the power gamer).
Marcus Majarra 05-24-07, 09:28 PM	And with the vexing and adaptive flanker the rogue can flank by himself he doesn't need anyone near him. I admit you have to get creative with enlarge person and a monkey grip weapon if you want to go beyond i think that covers huge or gargantuan for flanking. No creature can flank by itself. You need another allied creature in order to flank.
Tichrimo 05-24-07, 10:32 PM	Adaptive flanker only allows you to count as "in" another square you threaten for purposes of providing flanking for an ally... You can't "flank by yourself" with it.
Drakken2672 05-25-07, 05:19 PM	Ok maybe I'm reading adaptive flanker wrong then.. PHB2 p74 Adaptive flanker -As a swift action, you designate a single opponent as the target of this feat. When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occuping any other square you threaten for the purposes of determing flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent. Unless i am misreading or reading too far into that, it states that a person counts as occupying a square they threaten and their own square for flanking purposes for themselves and others. maybe I'm just looking at that wrong but wouldn't that mean you can and are able to flank by yourself.
darkneolink 05-25-07, 05:23 PM	sorry no _ _ _ lOlXlOl lOlMlOl l_l_l_l X= you O= threatened squares M= monster any one who stands on a threatened square as long as he is attacking the designated monster gets the flanking bonus... not you sorry
Drakken2672 05-25-07, 05:27 PM	|o|o|x|o|o| |o|o|m|o|o| | |o|o|o| | that would be with the spiked chain(10ft reach) and from my read you could in fact count as behind and in front of the monster.
Karui_Kage 05-25-07, 06:20 PM	sorry no _ _ _ lOlXlOl lOlMlOl l_l_l_l X= you O= threatened squares M= monster any one who stands on a threatened square as long as he is attacking the designated monster gets the flanking bonus... not you sorry In that example, if someone was standing on the right middle O, he could still be 'flanking', since he could count as standing on the left middle O. However, if someone was right next to him, in either the top left or top right O, he could not count as flanking, nor give them flanking, since he doesn't threaten the opposite square. The line about "he counts for flanking in his own square" just means that if someone stood directly opposite him, he'd still flank, like normal.
Karui_Kage 05-25-07, 06:22 PM	|o|o|x|o|o| |o|o|m|o|o| | |o|o|o| | that would be with the spiked chain(10ft reach) and from my read you could in fact count as behind and in front of the monster. You could count for being in one other location that you could reach. You could count as being in the bottom o, yes, but there would be no one where you are 'on the x' to count as flanking. It's a weird wording, I'll admit, but the purpose of the feat is to help you have more flanking options for your allies, not be able to flank yourself.
Merestil Haye 05-25-07, 07:18 PM	Unless i am misreading or reading too far into that, it states that a person counts as occupying a square they threaten and their own square for flanking purposes for themselves and others. maybe I'm just looking at that wrong but wouldn't that mean you can and are able to flank by yourself.You are misreading. From the FAQ.Can a character with the Adaptive Flanker feat (Player’s Handbook II, 73) and a spiked chain flank an enemy all by himself (since he can choose to count as occupying the square opposite the enemy as well as his own square)? No. This feat doesn’t let you get around the basic rule of flanking, which is that you need an ally to accomplish it—it just lets you pretend to occupy an extra space when figuring out if you’re actually flanking an enemy with your ally.You cannot flank by yourself. It's far easier to defeat Sneak Attack than you seem to think. It can be defeated by a 1st level spell, by simply being some kinds of creature (including one of the types the PCs are most likely to fight overall) or by the simple expedient of the enemy turning on the rogue where he's standing close by (since he wants to full attack) and rip him to shreds.
Drew1369r 05-25-07, 08:15 PM	I have never allowed more then one sneak attack a round... as in that is you attack, and you would get 2 attacks if hasted but that is not a sneak attack. I takes some concentration to find that chink in the armor to hit the kidney
Drakken2672 05-25-07, 09:04 PM	Ok now i'm on the same page as everyone else. thanks for the input and the loads of patience on the problem with my reading skills.
Karui_Kage 05-25-07, 10:17 PM	I have never allowed more then one sneak attack a round... as in that is you attack, and you would get 2 attacks if hasted but that is not a sneak attack. I takes some concentration to find that chink in the armor to hit the kidney That's fine, but house rules don't help point out what RAW allows. By RAW, you can perform as many sneak attacks per round as you like, so long as you're flanking/denying them their Dex bonus.
Krusk 05-27-07, 11:53 AM	20th fighter +20 BA +6 str +3 weapon +2 weapon focus Total: +31/+26/+21/+16 rogue i described above +16 BA +6 dex (finese) +3 weapon +4 vexing/adaptive flanker total: +29/+24/+19 Here is the thing, you managed to build a horribly unoptimised fighter. only +2 to hit from feats? oh man... He should probably have the entire weapon focus tree by level 20, giving a total of 1 from Weapon focus, 2 from greater weapon focus, 2 from melee weapon mastery, i like bludgeoning so take crushing strike which gives +1 after each successful attack. then you get weapon supremacy for +5 on any one attack aside from the first and take 10 on any attack. thats not amazingly optimised, but it does make the fighter closer to average. he now has 34/30/26/27 giving the +5 to hit to the last one and assuming all hit. He also can take 10 on any of those attacks. a flanking fighter now gets 36/32/28/29 vs a flanking rogues 29/24/19 Fighter has a much better chance to hit. his worst attack, is equal to the rogues best.Now you are complaining about a TWF rogue? well take 2 more off each attack. we are down to 36-32-28-29 vs 27-27-22-22-17-17 Lets hope this rogue is fighting siome sort of standard MM Giant, or a dinosaur or something.
Xykon 05-29-07, 12:07 AM	Its not that sneaky to be honest.... not enough to be worried about anyway. While the sneak attacks might look deadly i.e. at lvl 16 sneak attack is 8d6, average at: 28, its not that practical. Things that make Sneak Attack suck: 1. You need to flank to effectively make it work. A lot of times that means going to the enemy's backside and leaving the protection of the meat shield wall that is keeping the wizards safe. Plus flanking only applies to "Melee". 2. If relying on *surprise* you can only make it once... i.e. using invisibility or being first in the initiative round. And even so, any creature with uncanny dodge (i.e. barbarian class) ruins it. And as for enchantments, you need a fellow spell caster to put the enchantment on you... Multi-class into a caster you say? sure... and watch that BAB plummet down even further. 3. It doesn't apply to all creatures. Constructs, Undead, oozes, plants, and incorporeal are immune to it. Huge and larger creatures are immune to it (cannot reach their vital spots). Thus make an enlarged troll and see how effective the rogue will be. 4. Any concealment spoils it. Blur (20%), displacement (50%), or even 3.5 darkness (20%). 5. Non-proficiency with current weapon spoils it. And without sneak attack, what is his attack damage reduced to? For spiked chain 2d4, lets assume he has +3 str modifier, that would be: 2d4+4... hardly impressive isn't it?
acacannon 05-30-07, 07:02 PM	Things that make Sneak Attack rock: 1. You dont need to flank or use suprise to effectively make it work. the Telling Blow feat allows Sneak Attack Damage on any critical hit. 2. It can apply to all creatures. Constructs, Undead, oozes, plants, and incorporeal are immune to it, however many magic items allow this immunity to be overome by the weapon's enchantment. [MIC] 3. concealment doesnt spoil it. Blur (20%), displacement (50%), or darkness (20%) however magic items like eye of the beholder removes this miss chance. The worst kind of rogue is one who isnt prepared; but isnt that true about any player? PS no offence Xykon
Johnny_Angel 05-30-07, 07:12 PM	Its not that sneaky to be honest.... not enough to be worried about anyway. While the sneak attacks might look deadly i.e. at lvl 16 sneak attack is 8d6, average at: 28, its not that practical. Things that make Sneak Attack suck: 1. You need to flank to effectively make it work. A lot of times that means going to the enemy's backside and leaving the protection of the meat shield wall that is keeping the wizards safe. Plus flanking only applies to "Melee". Just a minor nitpick: IIRC, You can sneak attack with ranged attacks as long as you are within 30ft.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-31-07, 01:33 AM	> Things that make Sneak Attack rock: > > 1. You dont need to flank or use suprise to effectively make it work. the > Telling Blow feat allows Sneak Attack Damage on any critical hit. > > 2. It can apply to all creatures. Constructs, Undead, oozes, plants, and > incorporeal are immune to it, however many magic items allow this immunity > to be overome by the weapon's enchantment. [MIC] > > 3. concealment doesnt spoil it. Blur (20%), displacement (50%), or darkness > (20%) however magic items like eye of the beholder removes this miss > chance. > > The worst kind of rogue is one who isnt prepared; but isnt that true about > any player? All of these are true, but all of them require that the rogue expend additional resources (potentially a lot of additional resources, including hard to come by ones such as feats) in order to make Sneak Attack work well in all circumstances. Meanwhile, the Barbarian, Warblade, or what have you can spend those same resources on making his attacks much better too - and in his case those improvements are going to be getting him ahead in almost every circumstance rather than just letting him play catch-up in some.