Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FriendoftheDork 02-26-07, 01:29 PM	Ok, I haven't had the need for this forum in a long time, but now in my game my players uses both and I hear from a friend that you can't use bags of holding etc. in rope tricks, or other extradimmensional spaces. Now, the book itself says that you cannot make or take with you an extradimmensional space into a rope trick (without consequences) Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. Bag of Holding: The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. Ok, my rationale: Nondimmensional space=Extradimmensional space, just like extraterrestrial=not terrestrial (not of earth). Thus taking a bag of holding or heward's handy haversack into a rope trick has bad side effects, possibly destroying the bag, sending everyone in the rope trick to astral plane, or even destroying them all. The player in question means this is ok (but portable holes is not), thus nondimmensional spaces are not the same as extradimmensional ones.
orionm42 02-26-07, 01:56 PM	The FAQ appears to use the terms "extradimensional" and "nondimensional" interchangeably. More specifically, the description of a portable hole in the DMG states it opens a nondimensional space. However, in the FAQ, it refers to this space as extradimensional... Can you use a portable hole (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 264) to go through a wall or floor that’s less than 10 feet thick? No. The portable hole creates an extradimensional space— it doesn’t actually create a hole in an object. Same with the bag of holding... Can a Mordenkainen ’s disjunction destroy magic items stored in a bag of holding? What happens to the items within if it destroys the bag of holding? It’s not entirely clear where items stored within a bag of holding (or similar storage item) actually “are” (whether stored inside a bigger-than-it-looks container or actually floating in some extraplanar void). The bag’s entry (Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 248) simply describes it as opening “into a nondimensional space” with an “inside larger than its outside.” The Sage’s suspicion is that most DMs consider items within a bag of holding to be “not there”—that is, the items aren’t actually bouncing around on the owner’s hip but are instead suspended in an extradimensional/extraplanar “somewhere else.” The Sage further suspects that this determination is a combination of a) ease of game play and b) a leftover legacy of previous editions of the game. These appear to support your position that the two types of spaces can be viewed the same. Hope that helps. :)
Zherog 02-26-07, 02:03 PM	Ok, my rationale: Nondimmensional space=Extradimmensional space, just like extraterrestrial=not terrestrial (not of earth). Thus taking a bag of holding or heward's handy haversack into a rope trick has bad side effects, possibly destroying the bag, sending everyone in the rope trick to astral plane, or even destroying them all. The player in question means this is ok (but portable holes is not), thus nondimmensional spaces are not the same as extradimmensional ones. The 3.0 FAQ addresses this question, and reached the opposite conclusion as you. As far as I know, nothing about the stuff in this answer changed in 3.5, so it should still apply. Will extradimensional items rupture a bag of holding? The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide says that a bag of holding placed within a portable hole tears a rift to the Astral Plane. Bag and hole alike are then sucked into the void and forever lost. The DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide also says that when a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process. However, the description for Heward’s handy haversack makes no mention of any rifts or gates. This implies that only the combination of a bag of holding and portable hole forms a rift or gate. Thus, a bag of holding could be placed inside another bag of holding with no unusual effects. It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled. Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like.
orionm42 02-26-07, 02:06 PM	Good find Zherog. I'd go with the 3.0 ruling if you cannot find a similarly definitive 3.5 answer.
FriendoftheDork 02-26-07, 03:00 PM	The 3.0 FAQ addresses this question, and reached the opposite conclusion as you. As far as I know, nothing about the stuff in this answer changed in 3.5, so it should still apply. It's weird though as this FAQ completely contradicts the description of the 3.5 spell itself: Originally Posted by SRD Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. How can taking a bag of holding (ex. dimm space)etc. into a rope trick (existing ex. dimm. space after spell is cast) not pose a danger? Theory #1: The spell description is wrong, the 3.0 FAQ is right, and the lazy bums at WotC simply forgot to change the wording in 3.5. (Yeah, it's happened before) #2: The FAQ is wrong, written by someone not reading the rules properly) (yeah, it's happened before) #3 The rule about extradimmensional spaces was created to prevent abusing these bags to be able to store infinite amounts using just Type 1 bags, or even haversacks. Still WotC wanted to allow parties with bags to use the Rope Trick as a getaway/safe haven spell without risking their magically compressed loot ;) ATM I'm going to stick with my rulings for various reasons: #1: The rules say so, screw the FAQ. #2: Bags of holding etc. should have SOME drawbacks. #3: Rope Trick is already an immensivly powerful and useful 2nd level spell.
mvincent 02-26-07, 03:36 PM	I'd go with the 3.0 ruling if you cannot find a similarly definitive 3.5 answer.From the (3.5) Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a): "The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.) I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside."
BobbyMac 02-26-07, 09:46 PM	A compromise would be that you could take bags of holding and handy haversacks inside rope tricks and mansions and everything would be ok until you OPEN them!!!