Sage Advice Assassin Bologna [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sage Advice Assassin Bologna [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hecubus
09-21-07, 09:31 AM Sage advice: Wait a minute that is stupid. You can't lose those abilities from an assassin because your alignment shifts.

1. Agree: you can't progress as an assasin without being evil

2. If you kill someone using your assasin ability (death attack) than you alignment is called into question. If you your forced to be good, than you morally can't allow yourself to use a death attack. Roleplay situation there.

3. Almost every other ability shouldn't lose function with an alignment shift from being evil.

This is common sense. A paladin should lose stuff based on his Value/Patron/Deity withholding his gifts/powers/abilities. Or perhaps, his moral sense destroys his faith in his abilities and so they wouldn't work. This is not the MO of an Assassin who decides to stop being an assaisin. He reatains his skills, he just may not CHOOSE to ever use them again. If oneday he does, than player/Dm evaluate the moral ramifications than.

----------------------- Article

Q: Dear Sage
What happens when an assassin becomes non-evil?
--Thomas

A: A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.” (Complete Warrior, p16) You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.

The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets the class requirements.

So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack, death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class features, as well as his assassin spellcasting and any weapon and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from those class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed to non-evil).
Merestil Haye
09-21-07, 10:48 AM That was the rule in 3.0. It sounds to me as if this is an admission that it was missed out in error (something I've believed since I first noticed it was missing sometime in 2004).

Don't like it? Houserule. You are quite entitled to do that you know.

Me, I've always played it the way the Sage has just said to play it. So it doesn't worry me at all.
Tedronai
09-21-07, 03:52 PM Maybe the SHOULDN'T lose those abilities (and personally I have a very hard time understanding in general how one would lose any extraordinary ability for no longer meeting an alignment requirement...) but RAW, they DO.

Houserule all you want on this one, and I'd certainly say you're more than justified in doing so, because that just doesn't make sense (to me, at least).
hovnarr
09-21-07, 04:19 PM I think it's stupid.

The paladin's lawful goodness is tied to his religious code of conduct, and his belief system is the source of his special abilities. If he betrays his diety's confidence in him, he will loose privileges, simple as that.

How is that even remotely similar to the assassin's position? If he helps an old lady across the street, does he suddenly forget how to kill efficiently? Very strange.

Also, he cited a splat book as a general rules reference, which I'm not too sure about. Look at the monk for instance - he retains monk abilities even if he becomes non-lawful, so there's a provisio for doing it like that too.

I just waiver alignment restrictions in my games all together, so I'm never bothered by these things.
Salla
09-21-07, 04:29 PM If you fail to meet the prerequisites for a Prestige Class, then you lose its (non-numerical) benefits. This has been the rule for as long as I can remember.

Doesn't always make sense, I agree, but by RAW, the Sage is right.
Hecubus
09-21-07, 09:10 PM oh yes by virtue of the rules, and page sixteen in the complete warrior clarifies it, but as I said before, It doesn't make sense. I agree with the Sage, in his advice in many instances, but sometimes I can't go with it. Thank the lords of kobal that its considered advice. But in this instance it is a rule. Granted.

House rules have never been a problem for us. We have several well tested and used house rules throughout the years. Some are put in play and evaluated and than removed. Others get altered.... etc....

Falling Damage, suffers 2d6 per 10 feet fallen. half of which is Nonleathal. Solves people jumping off extreme hights. Of course our games are less heroic that way, but perhaps more realistic, dare I say.

Rules for breaking bones.

Clarified Nonleathal damage. You take nonleathal damage into the thousands, that just means your unconcious for that long while it heals. coma simulator.

Extreme skill checks can simulate feat functional abilities, and other neat tricks. For instance a Concentration with a Intelligence key ability allows a mage to prepare his spells in half the time. High DC to achieve it. Gives him more reason to put skill points into concentration. plus a number of other tricks that can be done with concentration are offered. Slight of Hand extreme check allows you to quickdraw in dual situations.... yadda yadda yadda.

Oh a pet peeve of mine. There is no reason mechanically to have Regeneration used that often. No real rule exists for taking off limbs or cutting out organs, etc..... Sunder is not allowed to remove limbs except in instances cited under lets say the hydra, or and giant squid. I have had a few people want to cut the hand off of some npc because he wants to stop something the wizard may be doing with a wand. Hand of Vecna? We came up with a hard and simple rule that allows a person to sunder a limb. Its really hard to do, because all of a persons protections are compounded and added to the persons opposed attack roll when its attempted. So basically far superior weapon wielders can take the hand off a common farmer, in a decidedly evil campaign, because he wants to make an example of him.
Suzu
09-21-07, 10:48 PM Wow. Not only have you posted this thread twice, you've put version 1 in the main DM forum, and vrsion 2 in the DM sub-forum. Get you.
Ace_of_time
09-23-07, 03:10 AM One or two good acts don't change your alignment but if your PC has a change of heart and slowly moves his alignment away from evil for what ever reasones is different.

Now I don't think comparing monk to assassin is going to work. There two different classes. Pro classes work different then reg classes do. Why not just come up with a Non evil assassin Pro class?
Kouk
09-23-07, 03:21 AM One or two good acts don't change your alignment but if your PC has a change of heart and slowly moves his alignment away from evil for what ever reasones is different.

Now I don't think comparing monk to assassin is going to work. There two different classes. Pro classes work different then reg classes do. Why not just come up with a Non evil assassin Pro class?

Or, you just end up becoming like this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
Khadmus
09-23-07, 01:57 PM The alignment requirement on that is stupid. CN & CG are now arbitrarily banned from the assassin mechanics.
heffroncm
09-23-07, 02:10 PM The alignment requirement on that is stupid. CN & CG are now arbitrarily banned from the assassin mechanics.

Then do away with the alignment recquirements for Assassins in your game. If a non-evil Assassin fits the flavor of your campaign, go for it. RAW, Assassins are Evil, if they ever become non-Evil they lose all spells, SLA's, Ex, Su, and other class abilities granted by Assassin until they become Evil again. This is how it works for any PRC.

It's different for a Paladin and a Monk, and the differances are explained in Paladin and Monk. For Monk, it's a step away from the true discipline and continuous training recquired to perfect the body, and one step off the path is all it takes to lose it forever. For Paladin, they have to not only regain their Lawful Good status, but Atone in the eyes of the church and their deity before regaining their station.

Can a Chaotic Good assassin exist? Sure, but you'll probably want to alter the class features somewhat. The Poison Use and Spellcasting in particular are granted by special intense training, and may not be appropriate as they are currently written to directly adapt the Avenger to a Chaotic character.

The Avenger, as it says, is "in the spirit of April Fool's." It's a perfectly viable class, and if you think about the sort of organization and backing the class has, non-chaotic makes perfect sense. We're not talking about a vigilante that takes it upon himself to make the world a better place by killing people. We're talking about government-sanctioned and trained hitmen. These are the elite S.E.A.L.S. Snipers, not the guy who taught himself to snipe and spends his day killing corrupt politicians.
Bek
09-23-07, 03:10 PM The house rule we run on regarding alignments and class features is this: If your alignment shifts and you no longer qualify to advance in your Class or PrC you retain the following:
1. Hit Dice and skill points
2. Proficiencies for weapons and armor
3. Non-conflicting class features

Why? My games run under the rule of common sense whenever possible. So -
1. These represent the physical and intellectual growth of your character; alignment shift should not affect this.
2. These represent weapons and armor training the character received during the first level of the Class or PrC; alignment shift should not affect this.
3. This one is a little trickier -
3a.for Classes that specifically mention what you retain (i.e. Ex-Paladin and Ex-Monk) the written word is usually final.
3b.For PrCs we tend to adjudicate... For a non-evil Assassin for example, you would retain sneak attack (non-evil Rogues get this class feature), your save bonus against poisons (it is not a profane, vile, or other bonus of a named evil type), uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight (as alignment has nothing to do with these class features), and spellcasting for any spell without the evil or vile descriptors.

Others might disagree, but the only Assassin abilities that are EVIL are death attack and poison use. So those are the only two abilities that a non-evil assassin wouldn't have that an evil one would.

With the publication of the PrC Slayer of Domiel in the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg. 73) what lines there were on poison use and death attack blurred even more, so allowing a repentant assassin who has moved to a good alignment to retain their poison use ability but only use Ravages and Afflictions (also from Book of Exalted Deeds) might also be an option to consider.
Wih
09-25-07, 10:21 PM IMHO, Sage's ruling is incorrect. Why? Dragon Disciple, level 10. You're suddenly stuck in limbo, as at 10th level you gain an class ability that makes you a half-dragon, and that means you lose all class abilities (including being a half dragon, which starts this process off again).
As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have an 'Ex-PrC' section, then you just need the requirements to get in there and continue levelling. If you lose the pre-reqs later, you can't continue taking levels in it but you keep all abilities you've gained.
heffroncm
09-26-07, 12:55 AM IMHO, Sage's ruling is incorrect. Why? Dragon Disciple, level 10. You're suddenly stuck in limbo, as at 10th level you gain an class ability that makes you a half-dragon, and that means you lose all class abilities (including being a half dragon, which starts this process off again).
As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have an 'Ex-PrC' section, then you just need the requirements to get in there and continue levelling. If you lose the pre-reqs later, you can't continue taking levels in it but you keep all abilities you've gained.

So, say Abjurant Champion. He takes the five levels of the class, then retrains out of Combat Casting? He no longer qualifies for the class, but what does he care, he's finished taking levels in it.

And why, exactly, does a Dragon Disciple lose his class features when he becomes a half-dragon? The template specifically says you retain all special attacks and special qualities.
Merestil Haye
09-26-07, 04:47 AM IMHO, Sage's ruling is incorrect. Why? Dragon Disciple, level 10. You're suddenly stuck in limbo, as at 10th level you gain an class ability that makes you a half-dragon, and that means you lose all class abilities (including being a half dragon, which starts this process off again).That does not mean the Sage's ruling is incorrect. It means the person who wrote the PrC did a bad job in thinking through the issues here. Just because one PrC has a problem doesn't mean the rule is wrong; just that the PrC has a problem.

I fix the problem in a different way to you; I say that class abilities of a PrC that cause a creature to lose the requirements of that PrC do not cause the creature to lose the powers of that PrC.

Why should they? They're the whole point of transformational PrCs. I'd go so far as to suggest that every single transformational PrC in the game has this rule underlying their development, but it's never been written down.
Colmarr
09-26-07, 08:56 PM And why, exactly, does a Dragon Disciple lose his class features when he becomes a half-dragon? The template specifically says you retain all special attacks and special qualities.

I'm curious about this point too. The template specifically says "A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here."

Edit: Ah, I see what Wih is referring to. One of the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple is being a non-Dragon. The half-dragon template changes your type to Dragon. Interesting...

Edit Mark II: Having said that, almost all of the class features of the dragon disciple are replicated by the Half-dragon template so losing those class features as a result of type change is not a great loss. The only difference between the two seems to be the wings (which all Dragon Disciples get but not all half-dragons). In effect, the Dragon Disciple prestige class is just a template class with prerequisites.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hecubus 09-21-07, 09:31 AM	Sage advice: Wait a minute that is stupid. You can't lose those abilities from an assassin because your alignment shifts. 1. Agree: you can't progress as an assasin without being evil 2. If you kill someone using your assasin ability (death attack) than you alignment is called into question. If you your forced to be good, than you morally can't allow yourself to use a death attack. Roleplay situation there. 3. Almost every other ability shouldn't lose function with an alignment shift from being evil. This is common sense. A paladin should lose stuff based on his Value/Patron/Deity withholding his gifts/powers/abilities. Or perhaps, his moral sense destroys his faith in his abilities and so they wouldn't work. This is not the MO of an Assassin who decides to stop being an assaisin. He reatains his skills, he just may not CHOOSE to ever use them again. If oneday he does, than player/Dm evaluate the moral ramifications than. ----------------------- Article Q: Dear Sage What happens when an assassin becomes non-evil? --Thomas A: A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.” (Complete Warrior, p16) You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses granted by the prestige class. The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets the class requirements. So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack, death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class features, as well as his assassin spellcasting and any weapon and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from those class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed to non-evil).
Merestil Haye 09-21-07, 10:48 AM	That was the rule in 3.0. It sounds to me as if this is an admission that it was missed out in error (something I've believed since I first noticed it was missing sometime in 2004). Don't like it? Houserule. You are quite entitled to do that you know. Me, I've always played it the way the Sage has just said to play it. So it doesn't worry me at all.
Tedronai 09-21-07, 03:52 PM	Maybe the SHOULDN'T lose those abilities (and personally I have a very hard time understanding in general how one would lose any extraordinary ability for no longer meeting an alignment requirement...) but RAW, they DO. Houserule all you want on this one, and I'd certainly say you're more than justified in doing so, because that just doesn't make sense (to me, at least).
hovnarr 09-21-07, 04:19 PM	I think it's stupid. The paladin's lawful goodness is tied to his religious code of conduct, and his belief system is the source of his special abilities. If he betrays his diety's confidence in him, he will loose privileges, simple as that. How is that even remotely similar to the assassin's position? If he helps an old lady across the street, does he suddenly forget how to kill efficiently? Very strange. Also, he cited a splat book as a general rules reference, which I'm not too sure about. Look at the monk for instance - he retains monk abilities even if he becomes non-lawful, so there's a provisio for doing it like that too. I just waiver alignment restrictions in my games all together, so I'm never bothered by these things.
Salla 09-21-07, 04:29 PM	If you fail to meet the prerequisites for a Prestige Class, then you lose its (non-numerical) benefits. This has been the rule for as long as I can remember. Doesn't always make sense, I agree, but by RAW, the Sage is right.
Hecubus 09-21-07, 09:10 PM	oh yes by virtue of the rules, and page sixteen in the complete warrior clarifies it, but as I said before, It doesn't make sense. I agree with the Sage, in his advice in many instances, but sometimes I can't go with it. Thank the lords of kobal that its considered advice. But in this instance it is a rule. Granted. House rules have never been a problem for us. We have several well tested and used house rules throughout the years. Some are put in play and evaluated and than removed. Others get altered.... etc.... Falling Damage, suffers 2d6 per 10 feet fallen. half of which is Nonleathal. Solves people jumping off extreme hights. Of course our games are less heroic that way, but perhaps more realistic, dare I say. Rules for breaking bones. Clarified Nonleathal damage. You take nonleathal damage into the thousands, that just means your unconcious for that long while it heals. coma simulator. Extreme skill checks can simulate feat functional abilities, and other neat tricks. For instance a Concentration with a Intelligence key ability allows a mage to prepare his spells in half the time. High DC to achieve it. Gives him more reason to put skill points into concentration. plus a number of other tricks that can be done with concentration are offered. Slight of Hand extreme check allows you to quickdraw in dual situations.... yadda yadda yadda. Oh a pet peeve of mine. There is no reason mechanically to have Regeneration used that often. No real rule exists for taking off limbs or cutting out organs, etc..... Sunder is not allowed to remove limbs except in instances cited under lets say the hydra, or and giant squid. I have had a few people want to cut the hand off of some npc because he wants to stop something the wizard may be doing with a wand. Hand of Vecna? We came up with a hard and simple rule that allows a person to sunder a limb. Its really hard to do, because all of a persons protections are compounded and added to the persons opposed attack roll when its attempted. So basically far superior weapon wielders can take the hand off a common farmer, in a decidedly evil campaign, because he wants to make an example of him.
Suzu 09-21-07, 10:48 PM	Wow. Not only have you posted this thread twice, you've put version 1 in the main DM forum, and vrsion 2 in the DM sub-forum. Get you.
Ace_of_time 09-23-07, 03:10 AM	One or two good acts don't change your alignment but if your PC has a change of heart and slowly moves his alignment away from evil for what ever reasones is different. Now I don't think comparing monk to assassin is going to work. There two different classes. Pro classes work different then reg classes do. Why not just come up with a Non evil assassin Pro class?
Kouk 09-23-07, 03:21 AM	One or two good acts don't change your alignment but if your PC has a change of heart and slowly moves his alignment away from evil for what ever reasones is different. Now I don't think comparing monk to assassin is going to work. There two different classes. Pro classes work different then reg classes do. Why not just come up with a Non evil assassin Pro class? Or, you just end up becoming like this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
Khadmus 09-23-07, 01:57 PM	The alignment requirement on that is stupid. CN & CG are now arbitrarily banned from the assassin mechanics.
heffroncm 09-23-07, 02:10 PM	The alignment requirement on that is stupid. CN & CG are now arbitrarily banned from the assassin mechanics. Then do away with the alignment recquirements for Assassins in your game. If a non-evil Assassin fits the flavor of your campaign, go for it. RAW, Assassins are Evil, if they ever become non-Evil they lose all spells, SLA's, Ex, Su, and other class abilities granted by Assassin until they become Evil again. This is how it works for any PRC. It's different for a Paladin and a Monk, and the differances are explained in Paladin and Monk. For Monk, it's a step away from the true discipline and continuous training recquired to perfect the body, and one step off the path is all it takes to lose it forever. For Paladin, they have to not only regain their Lawful Good status, but Atone in the eyes of the church and their deity before regaining their station. Can a Chaotic Good assassin exist? Sure, but you'll probably want to alter the class features somewhat. The Poison Use and Spellcasting in particular are granted by special intense training, and may not be appropriate as they are currently written to directly adapt the Avenger to a Chaotic character. The Avenger, as it says, is "in the spirit of April Fool's." It's a perfectly viable class, and if you think about the sort of organization and backing the class has, non-chaotic makes perfect sense. We're not talking about a vigilante that takes it upon himself to make the world a better place by killing people. We're talking about government-sanctioned and trained hitmen. These are the elite S.E.A.L.S. Snipers, not the guy who taught himself to snipe and spends his day killing corrupt politicians.
Bek 09-23-07, 03:10 PM	The house rule we run on regarding alignments and class features is this: If your alignment shifts and you no longer qualify to advance in your Class or PrC you retain the following: 1. Hit Dice and skill points 2. Proficiencies for weapons and armor 3. Non-conflicting class features Why? My games run under the rule of common sense whenever possible. So - 1. These represent the physical and intellectual growth of your character; alignment shift should not affect this. 2. These represent weapons and armor training the character received during the first level of the Class or PrC; alignment shift should not affect this. 3. This one is a little trickier - 3a.for Classes that specifically mention what you retain (i.e. Ex-Paladin and Ex-Monk) the written word is usually final. 3b.For PrCs we tend to adjudicate... For a non-evil Assassin for example, you would retain sneak attack (non-evil Rogues get this class feature), your save bonus against poisons (it is not a profane, vile, or other bonus of a named evil type), uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight (as alignment has nothing to do with these class features), and spellcasting for any spell without the evil or vile descriptors. Others might disagree, but the only Assassin abilities that are EVIL are death attack and poison use. So those are the only two abilities that a non-evil assassin wouldn't have that an evil one would. With the publication of the PrC Slayer of Domiel in the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg. 73) what lines there were on poison use and death attack blurred even more, so allowing a repentant assassin who has moved to a good alignment to retain their poison use ability but only use Ravages and Afflictions (also from Book of Exalted Deeds) might also be an option to consider.
Wih 09-25-07, 10:21 PM	IMHO, Sage's ruling is incorrect. Why? Dragon Disciple, level 10. You're suddenly stuck in limbo, as at 10th level you gain an class ability that makes you a half-dragon, and that means you lose all class abilities (including being a half dragon, which starts this process off again). As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have an 'Ex-PrC' section, then you just need the requirements to get in there and continue levelling. If you lose the pre-reqs later, you can't continue taking levels in it but you keep all abilities you've gained.
heffroncm 09-26-07, 12:55 AM	IMHO, Sage's ruling is incorrect. Why? Dragon Disciple, level 10. You're suddenly stuck in limbo, as at 10th level you gain an class ability that makes you a half-dragon, and that means you lose all class abilities (including being a half dragon, which starts this process off again). As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have an 'Ex-PrC' section, then you just need the requirements to get in there and continue levelling. If you lose the pre-reqs later, you can't continue taking levels in it but you keep all abilities you've gained. So, say Abjurant Champion. He takes the five levels of the class, then retrains out of Combat Casting? He no longer qualifies for the class, but what does he care, he's finished taking levels in it. And why, exactly, does a Dragon Disciple lose his class features when he becomes a half-dragon? The template specifically says you retain all special attacks and special qualities.
Merestil Haye 09-26-07, 04:47 AM	IMHO, Sage's ruling is incorrect. Why? Dragon Disciple, level 10. You're suddenly stuck in limbo, as at 10th level you gain an class ability that makes you a half-dragon, and that means you lose all class abilities (including being a half dragon, which starts this process off again).That does not mean the Sage's ruling is incorrect. It means the person who wrote the PrC did a bad job in thinking through the issues here. Just because one PrC has a problem doesn't mean the rule is wrong; just that the PrC has a problem. I fix the problem in a different way to you; I say that class abilities of a PrC that cause a creature to lose the requirements of that PrC do not cause the creature to lose the powers of that PrC. Why should they? They're the whole point of transformational PrCs. I'd go so far as to suggest that every single transformational PrC in the game has this rule underlying their development, but it's never been written down.
Colmarr 09-26-07, 08:56 PM	And why, exactly, does a Dragon Disciple lose his class features when he becomes a half-dragon? The template specifically says you retain all special attacks and special qualities. I'm curious about this point too. The template specifically says "A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here." Edit: Ah, I see what Wih is referring to. One of the prerequisites for Dragon Disciple is being a non-Dragon. The half-dragon template changes your type to Dragon. Interesting... Edit Mark II: Having said that, almost all of the class features of the dragon disciple are replicated by the Half-dragon template so losing those class features as a result of type change is not a great loss. The only difference between the two seems to be the wings (which all Dragon Disciples get but not all half-dragons). In effect, the Dragon Disciple prestige class is just a template class with prerequisites.