Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Necron99 04-11-07, 04:54 PM	Having a brain cramp, and I want to make sure I don't gyp my players here... Does a non-magical art object with a listed GP value, like a painting or brooch, sell to a vendor at half price? I scanned the books I own and can only seem to lump them in with other non-cash items like armor and weapons. The problem is that those things can be "used" whereas a painting can't be. I think that by RAW, an art object is just more equipment, and sells at half price - Am I right? Thankee
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 04:56 PM	At a vendor, yes, I would only give them half price. The vendor then needs to do the work of finding a buyer, convincing the buyer that it is worth more, etc. If the party wanted to take the time to become a vendor themselves, then they could get full price.
Marcus Majarra 04-11-07, 05:39 PM	Since art objects are about as nonfunctional as coins or gems, I would award full gp value for selling an art object (just as I would for trading in coins or gemstones).
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 05:52 PM	Since art objects are about as nonfunctional as coins or gems, I would award full gp value for selling an art object (just as I would for trading in coins or gemstones). The RAW agrees with you, but practically, I think it makes more sense to have different people pay different amounts. A normal vendor should not be buying art objects. A collector should. He is the one who will want most art objects, and he might be willing to pay more than standard. I realize these are house rules, and if you want standard RAW, then here it is: In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself. Under treasure, Art items fall under the trade goods category.
Yonner 04-11-07, 05:55 PM	Having a brain cramp, and I want to make sure I don't gyp my players here... Does a non-magical art object with a listed GP value, like a painting or brooch, sell to a vendor at half price? I think that by RAW, an art object is just more equipment, and sells at half price - Am I right? Thankee No. Take a look in the PHB on page112 under selling loot. Art objects are considered trade goods and sell for full value, same as gems and jewelry.
Evil DM Mk3 04-11-07, 05:59 PM	Full price. To do otherise assumed PCs are being idiots and going to a corn dealer with a portait and also can cripple thier wealth by level advancement. Esspecially if you have a large treasure horde that inclueds a lot of spangly items.
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 06:07 PM	Full price. To do otherise assumed PCs are being idiots and going to a corn dealer with a portait and also can cripple thier wealth by level advancement. Esspecially if you have a large treasure horde that inclueds a lot of spangly items. In that case, why waste the time rolling up treasure items? Why not just roll up how much gold they are worth. Or, if they are treated the same as gems, why not just roll up more gems? Seems like a waste of effort to me. A bunch of supplies that the party will never look at just to get sold as soon as the party reaches a vendor seems pointless.
Evil DM Mk3 04-11-07, 06:10 PM	In that case, why waste the time rolling up treasure items? Why not just roll up how much gold they are worth. Or, if they are treated the same as gems, why not just roll up more gems? Seems like a waste of effort to me. A bunch of supplies that the party will never look at just to get sold as soon as the party reaches a vendor seems pointless. I don't know, my players enjoy the sencery and flavour this provides. I amdit less engaged player might say "give us it all in gold" but mine enjoy the details of the world. If you NEED a mechanics reason, art objects are the most compact way of carring cash in perms of weight.
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 06:16 PM	If I am spending the time making things more engaging for my players, they can spend some time finding an art vendor rather than just selling it to a generic vendor. If they don't have an art vendor, they don't get full price. If they do find an art vendor, who knows, they might get more than full price. As I said, it is a house rule, but it has suited my games well. My players appreciate gold far more because it is difficult to get your hands on hard currency. You need to know the right people. A weapons vendor will not take your ornamental dagger in exchange for a cold iron greatsword. Plus, diamonds are most likely the most compact way of carrying cash in terms of weight. Art objects are frequently heavy. (Although, I am not sure why diamonds get the special priviledge of being the most expensive item... they are only a precious stone in reality because DeBeers has a monopoly on diamond mines and keep 99% of diamonds out of the public's hands... if they released all the diamonds they had, it would only be semi-precious and cheap as dirt).
Evil DM Mk3 04-11-07, 06:20 PM	I was just stating RAW and the reasonling behind it. You will note thta going shoping is not part of teh DnD ruled by the way, because many player find haggling over a quiver of arrows a waste of their time. It is never fun after about the third time and never advances the plot, not unless you have a very wierd world where every arrow transaction starts a war or somthing... Look all I can say is this. If that is the case you ahad better doulbe the amount of art objects, otherwise the party will lag on cash, a major problem. Also I think you will find a finely cut diamond set in a ring is easier to carry and can be worth more than a diamond, or indeed any gem, on its own.
Kursk 04-11-07, 06:25 PM	The beauty of art as treasure is that the PCs need to accurately appraise them in order to know what to sell them for. :evillaugh
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 06:35 PM	What happens when they inaccurately appraise the item and demand more than it is supposed to cost? The vendor should know the actual cost, or he should have to make an appraise check. And then, what is the point of the appraise check if the vendor will tell them the correct price. I mean 3d6x10% means that you might think it is worth 180% of the actual price. You tell the vendor you want that much, and he says, "No, I'll only give you the actual cost", and you decide to believe him. Another vendor betray's the party's trust and offers much less than it is worth, and now you run into the situation where the party has no idea that they are being gypped out of wealth, but they are. I find it much easier to let the party know that if they want to sell art objects, they need to bring it to the right people. Once they set up a contact, that contact offers them a standard percentage that they agree upon. They can renegotiate later using diplomacy. I have never found a use for appraise. It is too arbitrary. As soon as they get to the vendor, he will tell them the correct price or not sell it to them. If they don't have high appraise, every player I have ever DMed for starting asking for twice what they thought it was and bargaining down from there. Eventually, they would get to a price acceptable to the vendor. Rather than going through that each and every time, I just came up with the percentage system. They would get a percentage of the total. Different vendors would offer different percentages. If they wanted a higher percentage, they would need to find someone who dealt in the types of merchandise they were selling. They might receive 30% to 100% from a normal vendor, and 80% to 180% from a specialized vendor. All in all, it works out nicely. None of my parties have ever been far behind or ahead of the wealth curve.
Kursk 04-11-07, 06:38 PM	What happens when they inaccurately appraise the item and demand more than it is supposed to cost? The vendor should know the actual cost, or he should have to make an appraise check. And then, what is the point of the appraise check if the vendor will tell them the correct price. ... Having a trusted "go to" person is great but doesn't work when you are too far from your home base.
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 06:46 PM	It just means you need to find a new "go to" person. What happens when the party starts asking for double what they appraise the item at? They are asking for 60% to 360% of actual cost. If they have some sense motive, they can pretty easily figure out if they made a mistake.
Kursk 04-11-07, 06:52 PM	It just means you need to find a new "go to" person. What happens when the party starts asking for double what they appraise the item at? They are asking for 60% to 360% of actual cost. If they have some sense motive, they can pretty easily figure out if they made a mistake. Yep, walk into a unknown town and immediately find a new "trustworthy" guy to dump your stuff on.
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 06:58 PM	This takes up way too much gametime. It is much easier to just let the party know, "Hey, you get ripped off and only get 30% of actual value from this guy. You realize after a little while that you are getting ripped off. Either renegotiate or find a new vendor."
grydrilnrad 04-11-07, 07:49 PM	Much like in the real world, you get what someone is willing to pay for art. If its a painting, unless they KNOW someone will pay for it, players are better off leaving it. If its jewelry or made from precious metals and gems the players still can only go by their appraisal, which can be very wrong on any piece and they wont know since appraisal is definately a roll the DM should make and not the player. Simply put, the players shouldnt count to get full price on art. If they complain, suggest that a team of mages have build a magical Ebay, ruining the prices of all collectables.
Mystic Theurge 04-11-07, 08:24 PM	If you keep messing with the players when they want to use an art object, eventually, they won't want them. They will see them as being devalued. ("Oh great, another jade statue of Bhudda. Wonderful, now we're going to have to get it appraied and if we're lucky, we'll only get a quarter of what it's worth. Anyone want a paper-weight?" Character tosses it carelessly in a sack and moves on.) If you are going to do this sort of thing, perhaps it might be a good idea to occasionally reward the players with getting higher value for their goods. Personally, I think this is much too cumbersome and reminds me of why I loathed 2nd ed. Spending hours running around town to figure out that a precious comb is worth only 20 gp and MAYBE I can get 10 gp value out of it is counter productive. My way of dealing with this is to treat art objects as cash. Players like it that way because they don't have to carry around wheel-barrows full of coins. I like it because the game isn't bogged down needlessly. I also like it as a player because sometimes my characters keep the items and either use them ("here, gimme a refill, wench," holding out a golden tankard encrusted with jewels) or wear them if it's jewelry.
Necron99 04-11-07, 08:38 PM	Full price. To do otherise assumed PCs are being idiots and going to a corn dealer with a portait and also can cripple thier wealth by level advancement. Esspecially if you have a large treasure horde that inclueds a lot of spangly items. Precisely why I asked in the first place. Trade goods? That makes more sense (and explains why I couldn't find the definition) Thanks, ladies and gents, all good now
Leilond 04-12-07, 03:15 AM	It depends. If the party simply go to the first seller and take the money he offers they probably gain no much more than half value. If they go to more than one buyer, apprice the item correctly and finally know the real value they'll probably gain full value This is the way we play. But this is because we like the "town sell/buy" part of the game. If your party isn't interested in it, you can directly give them full value. But it is DIFFERENT from giving them money in the treasure, because some "art objects" can crash during journey, or they're very big and/or heavy and the players must find a way to secure bring them to a city big enought to pay for the item (they cannot sell a 10.000 gold art object in a 100 people town)
daimyotx 04-12-07, 11:39 AM	personally i use the "treat it as cash" option for resale. However I make sure to fully describe every art object in detail. As an aside, I think I take a small amount of satisfaction from seeing the party mage blow a ton of Detect Magic & Identify spells. If you describe something so that it sounds supremely special, the players will invest time on the Red Herring, giving you ample opportunities for plot hooks/devices. There have been many times that the players have kept hold of a piece of art because of it's description. My first intention was for it to be art, but later I incorporated it as part of an adventure or plot device. Remember, Art isnt just paintings or sculpture. Gen encrusted bracelets, finely wrought torcs, finely crafter sword scabbards, etc. The first time I incorporated a piece of art that the players hung onto was when they found a masterfully wrought pale jade bracelet with ravens in flight carved across its face. The players decided that since I'd invested the effort to describe it in such detail that it just HAD to be important... Later on I have them find another one exactly like it in a different treasure horde. THAT one REALLY got them thinking. I eventually used 5 of them as the keys to a magically sealed door on a side adventure that the players had ran off on.
Kuronue 04-13-07, 08:54 AM	("Oh great, another jade statue of Bhudda. Wonderful, now we're going to have to get it appraied and if we're lucky, we'll only get a quarter of what it's worth. Anyone want a paper-weight?" Character tosses it carelessly in a sack and moves on.) Sounds like a typical group of bloodthirsty adventurers to me! One of my players would probably decide it was shiny and pretty and their new best friend that talked to them at night, so consider yourself lucky
Mystic Theurge 04-13-07, 09:03 AM	Sounds like a typical group of bloodthirsty adventurers to me! One of my players would probably decide it was shiny and pretty and their new best friend that talked to them at night, so consider yourself lucky I gave up trying to be crafty with art objects a long time ago. I would get into alot of detail. The reality of the situation is that most players I game with simply don't care. I have tried the whole RPing thing with art object and have come up with my own solution. I do have a character that is loaded down with art objects, however. She is a noble character and likes to use art objects she finds to compliment her many different outfits. When she's in town, she hobnobs with the creme of society and gets a bonus on her diplomacy when she regails them with stories of how such objects were found. Whenever the group encounters art objects, she will take the object and everyone else gets cash. If it's not to her liking, she will trade it for something that is. This is the only character in any group I have played in that does this.
Marcus Majarra 04-13-07, 01:31 PM	Much like in the real world, you get what someone is willing to pay for art. Except that in D&D, the listed gp value is exactly what someone is willing to pay for that piece of art, just like the gp value of gemstones is exactly what someone is willing to pay to acquire them. Trade goods are simply coins in another form.