Scrolls in Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Scrolls in Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cowczar
03-20-08, 06:55 AM In the DMG, it states that you must prepare (or know) the spell needed to make a magic item. The spell slot is expended in the process. I don't think so, but would it be possible to expend a scroll to count as using the spell?
Empirate
03-20-08, 09:38 AM Creating Magic Items

To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

Important part bolded. That should answer your question.
Merestil Haye
03-20-08, 09:38 AM In the DMG, it states that you must prepare (or know) the spell needed to make a magic item. The spell slot is expended in the process. I don't think so, but would it be possible to expend a scroll to count as using the spell?Yes, it would be possible.

It requires one scroll (or one activation of a wand, staff or other item that stores the spell) for each day it takes to craft the item in addition to the regular cost of magic supplies. So, for example, a Ring of Freedom of Movement would require forty scrolls, or use forty charges from wands, or any combination thereof, if you went that route.
Cowczar
03-20-08, 06:59 PM Ok, thanks guys.
Empirate
04-03-08, 07:05 AM It requires one scroll (or one activation of a wand, staff or other item that stores the spell) for each day it takes to craft the item in addition to the regular cost of magic supplies. So, for example, a Ring of Freedom of Movement would require forty scrolls, or use forty charges from wands, or any combination thereof, if you went that route.

Where's that one from? I didn't know this, and am not sure I'd actually handle it that way... but having to use (heck, UMD it if you need to...) only one scroll of a spell you don't have to make an item you normally couldn't make sounds a little too good to be true.
Merestil Haye
04-03-08, 07:27 AM Where's that one from? I didn't know this, and am not sure I'd actually handle it that way... but having to use (heck, UMD it if you need to...) only one scroll of a spell you don't have to make an item you normally couldn't make sounds a little too good to be true.You may be overestimating the power of the procedure.

I didn't say one scroll, I said one scroll per day. If the item costs 40,000gp then you require 40 scrolls. The cost of these scrolls is in addition to the regular magic item supplies cost.

Thus, for example, to create a Ring of Freedom of Movement this way costs the crafter 20,000gp in supplies plus 40 scrolls with a minimum cost of 700gp each, for a total of 48,000gp worth of resources to create an item worth 40,000gp. You could substitute a wand; that would reduce the additional expenditure to 16,800 for a total of 38,600.

Is that really so unbalanced?
Empirate
04-04-08, 09:35 AM No, no, you misunderstood me:
Up until reading your first post, I believed: "You only need one scroll to create a magic item. This is, I think, a bit unbalanced."
Then I read your post and thought: "That's neat, needing one scroll per say prevents item creators from going crazy. In some cases, it might be a little too severe, though. Hmm. Actually, where does it come from?"

So here's my question again: Where does it say in the rules that you need one scroll for every day? I can't find it in the SRD.
Radijs
04-04-08, 09:54 AM I heard the same thing. I can't find a reference at the moment. But creating a magic item involves casting the spell each day. So by that extent using scrolls would require you to have a scroll for each day of crafting.
wrecan
04-04-08, 10:36 AM The following sentence appears in each the description of magic item creation for each category of magic item:

The act of working on the [item] triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the [item]’s creation.
This states that the spell must be castable -- and expended -- every day of the process.

As for using a scroll or wand, the introduction to Creating Magic Items says as follows:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

Ergo, wands and scrolls, if used, replace the spell preparation. I think this makes it pretty clear that you need a scroll or a charge of a wand or staff for each day of item creation. Which also means Use Magic Device could be used to crate items (though the crafter still needs to be a spellcaster to take the Item Creation Feats in the first place).
Merestil Haye
04-04-08, 10:51 AM No, no, you misunderstood me:
Up until reading your first post, I believed: "You only need one scroll to create a magic item. This is, I think, a bit unbalanced."
Then I read your post and thought: "That's neat, needing one scroll per say prevents item creators from going crazy. In some cases, it might be a little too severe, though. Hmm. Actually, where does it come from?"

So here's my question again: Where does it say in the rules that you need one scroll for every day? I can't find it in the SRD.Ah, sorry. Yes I misunderstood you.

Wrecan has joined the dots to answer this question nicely. (Thanks).
1 ton ghost
04-04-08, 03:33 PM Ah, nice loophole. I like the versatility and all, but isn't Caster Level and issue w/ the cast spell that goes into the item in question?

Or is CL just contingent on the crafter w/ the Item Creation Feat? ie)You need Fireball to item 'x' that requires, say, Craft Rod and a CL of 9. Would you need to be 9+ lvls, prep and cast Fireball every day/1,000gp in cost, or would you just need a Fireball THAT WAS SCRIBED (scroll) at 9th lvl for every required day of creation?

Also, other casters can dump in/contribute their own spell per Item Creation, yes? I mean, typically, it's almost always the Wzd that crafts anything but it's almost always contingent on his/her spell list, once more, what's actually accessible via their grimoire. Can you friendly neighborhood Assassin prep and cast Assassin only spells to augment the magi in this fashion? I know whomever has the feat pays the XP and I thought you could have surrogate casters, but it's been a long time and I cannot recall specifically.
wrecan
04-04-08, 04:25 PM isn't Caster Level and issue w/ the cast spell that goes into the item in question?
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
-Magic Items; Magic Item Basics; Caster Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel)

Caster Level is determined by the level of the caster using the Magic Item feat, not the caster level of the spells cast into the item. Oddly enough, some Wondrous Items have a caster level lower than five, even though you have to be fifth level to learn Craft Wondrous Item! I guess some wizards set the caster level under their own (which they're allowed to do).

Also, other casters can dump in/contribute their own spell per Item Creation, yes?
Yep.

Can you friendly neighborhood Assassin prep and cast Assassin only spells to augment the magi in this fashion?
Yep, but only the guy with the Item Creation Feat can spend the XP.
Heros_Backpack
04-05-08, 06:28 AM So here's my question again: Where does it say in the rules that you need one scroll for every day? I can't find it in the SRD.

It's easy to miss. (You'll find it in the descriptions near the start of the Magic Item section)

Magic Item Descriptions
Prerequisites

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

(bold mine)
Empirate
04-06-08, 11:30 AM OK thanks, so that one's clear to me now. But there's one problem I have with this, namely, cost balancing.
Just for the sake of argument, say you are a 16th level Sorcerer, you have the Scribe Scroll feat and want to create a Scroll of Protection from Spells. Now you don't know that spell, so you're using scrolls to create your personal Scroll of Protection from Spells. A Scroll of Protection from Spells costs 2,000 gp to make (1,500 gp base price plus a 500 gp diamond), so you're gonna need two days. If you need a scroll for each day, you'll spend two scrolls in manufacturing only one! Of course you wouldn't ever want to do the exact thing I described here. But there's at least one instance in which I could imagine this to be an actual issue: if you want to make a scroll of a higher caster level, and use standard scrolls to do so. I'm simply not sure why you'd need two scrolls to duplicate one.

Of course, you could just make yourself a Wondrous Item first, which makes the spell available 1/day. Might be more cost-effective in the long run.
Michaelk
04-06-08, 04:08 PM It's easy to miss. (You'll find it in the descriptions near the start of the Magic Item section)

This was also made explicit in the rules of the game articles.
Merestil Haye
04-07-08, 06:23 AM OK thanks, so that one's clear to me now. But there's one problem I have with this, namely, cost balancing.
Just for the sake of argument, say you are a 16th level Sorcerer, you have the Scribe Scroll feat and want to create a Scroll of Protection from Spells. Now you don't know that spell, so you're using scrolls to create your personal Scroll of Protection from Spells. A Scroll of Protection from Spells costs 2,000 gp to make (1,500 gp base price plus a 500 gp diamond), so you're gonna need two days.Just break here a minute.

The time to create an item is 1 day per 1,000gp of the base price. Not 1 day per 1,000gp of the cost to create.

A scroll of an 8th level spell at CL15 has a base price of 3,000gp. It therefore takes three days to create.

If you need a scroll for each day, you'll spend two scrolls in manufacturing only one! Of course you wouldn't ever want to do the exact thing I described here. But there's at least one instance in which I could imagine this to be an actual issue: if you want to make a scroll of a higher caster level, and use standard scrolls to do so. I'm simply not sure why you'd need two scrolls to duplicate one.If you want to make a scroll of a higher caster level than normal, then you'd better be able to provide the spell at the higher caster level. If the spell is being provided at CL15, then that's the CL of the new item.

You need multiple castings of the spell because that's the way magic item creation works. In this putative case, you'd need three scrolls (at a cost of 3,500gp each) plus 1,500gp in supplies, plus a 500gp diamond - total cost 12,500gp - to make an item costing 3,500gp.

There really is no point.

Of course, you could just make yourself a Wondrous Item first, which makes the spell available 1/day. Might be more cost-effective in the long run.Not really.

Said wondrous item (say a cloak) would cost on the order of 68,000gp; 111k if you want it slotless. It would take a very long time for that to pay off.
Empirate
04-07-08, 06:36 AM Thanks for anwering my questions. And for taking my ludicrous example seriously, btw. Seems I'll have to read up on item creation if my players ever want to go there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cowczar 03-20-08, 06:55 AM	In the DMG, it states that you must prepare (or know) the spell needed to make a magic item. The spell slot is expended in the process. I don't think so, but would it be possible to expend a scroll to count as using the spell?
Empirate 03-20-08, 09:38 AM	Creating Magic Items To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation. Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). Important part bolded. That should answer your question.
Merestil Haye 03-20-08, 09:38 AM	In the DMG, it states that you must prepare (or know) the spell needed to make a magic item. The spell slot is expended in the process. I don't think so, but would it be possible to expend a scroll to count as using the spell?Yes, it would be possible. It requires one scroll (or one activation of a wand, staff or other item that stores the spell) for each day it takes to craft the item in addition to the regular cost of magic supplies. So, for example, a Ring of Freedom of Movement would require forty scrolls, or use forty charges from wands, or any combination thereof, if you went that route.
Cowczar 03-20-08, 06:59 PM	Ok, thanks guys.
Empirate 04-03-08, 07:05 AM	It requires one scroll (or one activation of a wand, staff or other item that stores the spell) for each day it takes to craft the item in addition to the regular cost of magic supplies. So, for example, a Ring of Freedom of Movement would require forty scrolls, or use forty charges from wands, or any combination thereof, if you went that route. Where's that one from? I didn't know this, and am not sure I'd actually handle it that way... but having to use (heck, UMD it if you need to...) only one scroll of a spell you don't have to make an item you normally couldn't make sounds a little too good to be true.
Merestil Haye 04-03-08, 07:27 AM	Where's that one from? I didn't know this, and am not sure I'd actually handle it that way... but having to use (heck, UMD it if you need to...) only one scroll of a spell you don't have to make an item you normally couldn't make sounds a little too good to be true.You may be overestimating the power of the procedure. I didn't say one scroll, I said one scroll per day. If the item costs 40,000gp then you require 40 scrolls. The cost of these scrolls is in addition to the regular magic item supplies cost. Thus, for example, to create a Ring of Freedom of Movement this way costs the crafter 20,000gp in supplies plus 40 scrolls with a minimum cost of 700gp each, for a total of 48,000gp worth of resources to create an item worth 40,000gp. You could substitute a wand; that would reduce the additional expenditure to 16,800 for a total of 38,600. Is that really so unbalanced?
Empirate 04-04-08, 09:35 AM	No, no, you misunderstood me: Up until reading your first post, I believed: "You only need one scroll to create a magic item. This is, I think, a bit unbalanced." Then I read your post and thought: "That's neat, needing one scroll per say prevents item creators from going crazy. In some cases, it might be a little too severe, though. Hmm. Actually, where does it come from?" So here's my question again: Where does it say in the rules that you need one scroll for every day? I can't find it in the SRD.
Radijs 04-04-08, 09:54 AM	I heard the same thing. I can't find a reference at the moment. But creating a magic item involves casting the spell each day. So by that extent using scrolls would require you to have a scroll for each day of crafting.
wrecan 04-04-08, 10:36 AM	The following sentence appears in each the description of magic item creation for each category of magic item: The act of working on the [item] triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the [item]’s creation. This states that the spell must be castable -- and expended -- every day of the process. As for using a scroll or wand, the introduction to Creating Magic Items says as follows: Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). Ergo, wands and scrolls, if used, replace the spell preparation. I think this makes it pretty clear that you need a scroll or a charge of a wand or staff for each day of item creation. Which also means Use Magic Device could be used to crate items (though the crafter still needs to be a spellcaster to take the Item Creation Feats in the first place).
Merestil Haye 04-04-08, 10:51 AM	No, no, you misunderstood me: Up until reading your first post, I believed: "You only need one scroll to create a magic item. This is, I think, a bit unbalanced." Then I read your post and thought: "That's neat, needing one scroll per say prevents item creators from going crazy. In some cases, it might be a little too severe, though. Hmm. Actually, where does it come from?" So here's my question again: Where does it say in the rules that you need one scroll for every day? I can't find it in the SRD.Ah, sorry. Yes I misunderstood you. Wrecan has joined the dots to answer this question nicely. (Thanks).
1 ton ghost 04-04-08, 03:33 PM	Ah, nice loophole. I like the versatility and all, but isn't Caster Level and issue w/ the cast spell that goes into the item in question? Or is CL just contingent on the crafter w/ the Item Creation Feat? ie)You need Fireball to item 'x' that requires, say, Craft Rod and a CL of 9. Would you need to be 9+ lvls, prep and cast Fireball every day/1,000gp in cost, or would you just need a Fireball THAT WAS SCRIBED (scroll) at 9th lvl for every required day of creation? Also, other casters can dump in/contribute their own spell per Item Creation, yes? I mean, typically, it's almost always the Wzd that crafts anything but it's almost always contingent on his/her spell list, once more, what's actually accessible via their grimoire. Can you friendly neighborhood Assassin prep and cast Assassin only spells to augment the magi in this fashion? I know whomever has the feat pays the XP and I thought you could have surrogate casters, but it's been a long time and I cannot recall specifically.
wrecan 04-04-08, 04:25 PM	isn't Caster Level and issue w/ the cast spell that goes into the item in question? For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. -Magic Items; Magic Item Basics; Caster Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) Caster Level is determined by the level of the caster using the Magic Item feat, not the caster level of the spells cast into the item. Oddly enough, some Wondrous Items have a caster level lower than five, even though you have to be fifth level to learn Craft Wondrous Item! I guess some wizards set the caster level under their own (which they're allowed to do). Also, other casters can dump in/contribute their own spell per Item Creation, yes? Yep. Can you friendly neighborhood Assassin prep and cast Assassin only spells to augment the magi in this fashion? Yep, but only the guy with the Item Creation Feat can spend the XP.
Heros_Backpack 04-05-08, 06:28 AM	So here's my question again: Where does it say in the rules that you need one scroll for every day? I can't find it in the SRD. It's easy to miss. (You'll find it in the descriptions near the start of the Magic Item section) Magic Item Descriptions Prerequisites A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. (bold mine)
Empirate 04-06-08, 11:30 AM	OK thanks, so that one's clear to me now. But there's one problem I have with this, namely, cost balancing. Just for the sake of argument, say you are a 16th level Sorcerer, you have the Scribe Scroll feat and want to create a Scroll of Protection from Spells. Now you don't know that spell, so you're using scrolls to create your personal Scroll of Protection from Spells. A Scroll of Protection from Spells costs 2,000 gp to make (1,500 gp base price plus a 500 gp diamond), so you're gonna need two days. If you need a scroll for each day, you'll spend two scrolls in manufacturing only one! Of course you wouldn't ever want to do the exact thing I described here. But there's at least one instance in which I could imagine this to be an actual issue: if you want to make a scroll of a higher caster level, and use standard scrolls to do so. I'm simply not sure why you'd need two scrolls to duplicate one. Of course, you could just make yourself a Wondrous Item first, which makes the spell available 1/day. Might be more cost-effective in the long run.
Michaelk 04-06-08, 04:08 PM	It's easy to miss. (You'll find it in the descriptions near the start of the Magic Item section) This was also made explicit in the rules of the game articles.
Merestil Haye 04-07-08, 06:23 AM	OK thanks, so that one's clear to me now. But there's one problem I have with this, namely, cost balancing. Just for the sake of argument, say you are a 16th level Sorcerer, you have the Scribe Scroll feat and want to create a Scroll of Protection from Spells. Now you don't know that spell, so you're using scrolls to create your personal Scroll of Protection from Spells. A Scroll of Protection from Spells costs 2,000 gp to make (1,500 gp base price plus a 500 gp diamond), so you're gonna need two days.Just break here a minute. The time to create an item is 1 day per 1,000gp of the base price. Not 1 day per 1,000gp of the cost to create. A scroll of an 8th level spell at CL15 has a base price of 3,000gp. It therefore takes three days to create. If you need a scroll for each day, you'll spend two scrolls in manufacturing only one! Of course you wouldn't ever want to do the exact thing I described here. But there's at least one instance in which I could imagine this to be an actual issue: if you want to make a scroll of a higher caster level, and use standard scrolls to do so. I'm simply not sure why you'd need two scrolls to duplicate one.If you want to make a scroll of a higher caster level than normal, then you'd better be able to provide the spell at the higher caster level. If the spell is being provided at CL15, then that's the CL of the new item. You need multiple castings of the spell because that's the way magic item creation works. In this putative case, you'd need three scrolls (at a cost of 3,500gp each) plus 1,500gp in supplies, plus a 500gp diamond - total cost 12,500gp - to make an item costing 3,500gp. There really is no point. Of course, you could just make yourself a Wondrous Item first, which makes the spell available 1/day. Might be more cost-effective in the long run.Not really. Said wondrous item (say a cloak) would cost on the order of 68,000gp; 111k if you want it slotless. It would take a very long time for that to pay off.
Empirate 04-07-08, 06:36 AM	Thanks for anwering my questions. And for taking my ludicrous example seriously, btw. Seems I'll have to read up on item creation if my players ever want to go there.