Shapeshifters and Epic Knowledge Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shapeshifters and Epic Knowledge Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
justverydifferent
04-25-07, 02:35 AM Heya guys,

I've just started running an Epic level campaign, and after the first session have realized I'm going to have to be a lot tougher on certain checks. Most of them I can deal with, but Knowledge, not so much.

Basically, my problem is that there are two natural shapeshifters in the party, a Phasm factotum and a Tiefling Ninja/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper (with the Divine Minion of Set template). There's also two spellcasters able to cast polymorph/shapechange. After one session I've been enlightened to just how (incredibly and annoyingly) flexible these players are, and need to figure out a legit way to restrict the number of forms they can be. The most reasonable way I can think of is restrict the number of forms their character knows.

At first I was thinking that I should do this through Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) checks, however some of these PCs have 23 ranks in these skills, plus a +7 INT modifier. Ouch.

Would it be best to instead give the PCs a distinct limit on the number of exotic shapes they know (say, between 10 and 15, seeing they are epic and all), to disencourage them from trawling the various monster manuals in-game and shapechanging constantly, and also apply a reasonable penalty to other forms they encounter and try to mimic?

Cheers guys,
Mel :confused:
tos_shai_hulud
04-25-07, 04:02 AM Well, first of all, if a character does not have the stats for his character in a particular shape, he may not dawdle searching for it in the Monster Manual. If he is not prepared, his character is not prepared. That would be my only limitation. I would impose a penalty to new forms (the character is not used to the form). It requires practice to become proficient with it. Perhaps you impose an attack penalty or a penalty to some other portion of the character. This way, shapechangers will decide on favored shapes, but in the event that an exotic shape is necessary, they can change into it, provided they have it prepared.

This leaves the door open to variation, but maintains a focus on a select number of forms. Perhaps you let the players choose 5 primary forms (no penalties), 5 secondary forms (-1 penalties to all attacks), and everything else receives a -2 penalty to all attacks for being unfamiliar. If these penalties are not enough/too much, you can adjust accordingly.

Edit: What sort of Level Adjustment did you apply to the Phasm? According to the SRD, it is not a playable race (I believe this means its hit dice plus level adjustment would bring it to higher than ECL 20, so they consider the race unplayable).
justverydifferent
04-25-07, 07:59 AM Sweet- thanks greatly for that.

In regards to the Phasm- I originally was going to rule out that character, however there is a playable version in the Savage Species book. It has 5 Hit Die and a Level Adjustment of 7. The abilities are lower, as are the saves and the base attack, making it a fairer creature to play.

Actually, while I'm at it, would anyone have any idea as to what kind of item slots a Phasm would have in natural form? So far I have told the player to just have a good Bag of Holding, and some gear for a few favourite shapes. (Fortunately the campaign started with the player's robbed of their gear, so equipment lists weren't vital to the game starting).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
justverydifferent 04-25-07, 02:35 AM	Heya guys, I've just started running an Epic level campaign, and after the first session have realized I'm going to have to be a lot tougher on certain checks. Most of them I can deal with, but Knowledge, not so much. Basically, my problem is that there are two natural shapeshifters in the party, a Phasm factotum and a Tiefling Ninja/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper (with the Divine Minion of Set template). There's also two spellcasters able to cast polymorph/shapechange. After one session I've been enlightened to just how (incredibly and annoyingly) flexible these players are, and need to figure out a legit way to restrict the number of forms they can be. The most reasonable way I can think of is restrict the number of forms their character knows. At first I was thinking that I should do this through Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (planes) checks, however some of these PCs have 23 ranks in these skills, plus a +7 INT modifier. Ouch. Would it be best to instead give the PCs a distinct limit on the number of exotic shapes they know (say, between 10 and 15, seeing they are epic and all), to disencourage them from trawling the various monster manuals in-game and shapechanging constantly, and also apply a reasonable penalty to other forms they encounter and try to mimic? Cheers guys, Mel :confused:
tos_shai_hulud 04-25-07, 04:02 AM	Well, first of all, if a character does not have the stats for his character in a particular shape, he may not dawdle searching for it in the Monster Manual. If he is not prepared, his character is not prepared. That would be my only limitation. I would impose a penalty to new forms (the character is not used to the form). It requires practice to become proficient with it. Perhaps you impose an attack penalty or a penalty to some other portion of the character. This way, shapechangers will decide on favored shapes, but in the event that an exotic shape is necessary, they can change into it, provided they have it prepared. This leaves the door open to variation, but maintains a focus on a select number of forms. Perhaps you let the players choose 5 primary forms (no penalties), 5 secondary forms (-1 penalties to all attacks), and everything else receives a -2 penalty to all attacks for being unfamiliar. If these penalties are not enough/too much, you can adjust accordingly. Edit: What sort of Level Adjustment did you apply to the Phasm? According to the SRD, it is not a playable race (I believe this means its hit dice plus level adjustment would bring it to higher than ECL 20, so they consider the race unplayable).
justverydifferent 04-25-07, 07:59 AM	Sweet- thanks greatly for that. In regards to the Phasm- I originally was going to rule out that character, however there is a playable version in the Savage Species book. It has 5 Hit Die and a Level Adjustment of 7. The abilities are lower, as are the saves and the base attack, making it a fairer creature to play. Actually, while I'm at it, would anyone have any idea as to what kind of item slots a Phasm would have in natural form? So far I have told the player to just have a good Bag of Holding, and some gear for a few favourite shapes. (Fortunately the campaign started with the player's robbed of their gear, so equipment lists weren't vital to the game starting).