Sharing squares [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sharing squares [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Myzery78
03-30-07, 02:44 PM Can anyone show me where to find what information is available with regards to allies and enemies sharing squares? We've had some issues come up lately where allies have been forced into the same space and enemies have gone from unconscious to awake after somebody has entered their square.
orionm42
03-30-07, 02:50 PM here are the general rules

Moving through a Square

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.

Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)

Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Overrun: During your movement you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to tumble through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Tumble skill).

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities.

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

As for the scenario you present about an unconscious character waking up with another character in his square, my initial reaction is to look at the last bolded section above (i.e. move the character who was not unconscious to the last legal position, etc.). As for allies occupying the same space during combat...they can't unless one is helpless. Edit: I also think a mount and his rider can be treated as occupying the same space for the sake of simplicity.

A few more specifics about your particular issues might help get a better answer. :)
jadehawk
03-30-07, 05:08 PM orionm42's details there are pretty much it, except it is missing grappling rules. If you successfully grapple someone, then as a part of the grapple you move into the opponent's square. While grappled, you share the same square.
Myzery78
03-30-07, 05:44 PM It has come up a few times in recent memory. Once when a necromancer animated zombies in squares the players were standing in(using reach spell), and once when a monster with fast healing was dropped to -1 and then conscious again the next round.

Also I've had players jump down a hole in the floor and land in a square already occupied by an ally. In that particular case the rules you mentioned seem to cover it(they would move to the closest available space) however this doesnt really cover what happens if multiple people were to jump into a pit(having no where to go but up), though I know its not a common occurance I have seen it happen. Theres also the question of what happens if the PCs jump into an encloses area filled by enemies. They would not be able to return to a previous square and its likely no open square would be available.

One of the main reasons I thought it was possible to willing share a square was the Swarmfighting feat, though a reread of it indicates that under normal circumstances sharing of a space might not be as possible as I had thought.
orionm42
03-30-07, 08:14 PM A few points of clarification...first, there is some additional information on sharing squares in the DMG starting on page 29 (the section titled “Big and Little Creatures in Combat,” particularly the subsection titled “Mixing it Up.”)

Second, the rules for occupying the same space should only be enforced during combat. Outside of combat, friendly creatures can occupy the same square on the grid. So if your players jump down a hole into a five foot square while not engaged in combat, they can all occupy the same square (within reason of course).

As far as the necromancer animating undead in an already occupied square...I would have to ask you if there were any other legal positions within range? If so, I would have required him to choose a legal square. If there were no available squares, I probably would have ruled the spell automatically failed. (With that said, I am not sure what "reach spell" is...does it specifically allow a caster to do what you mentioned?)

I am also not familiar with the swarmfighting feat, so I can’t help you there.

With respect to your scenario where the PCs jump "into an enclosed area filled with enemies,” that is a head scratcher. I probably would not set up a scenario where there are absolutely no legal positions available to begin with, but assuming this is the case, I am not sure how I would rule if a PC tried to enter the area. Hmmmmm….:thinks:
Tichrimo
03-30-07, 08:22 PM Actually, it's one of the benefits of the swarmfighting feat -- it allows you to occupy the same square as an ally who also has the feat (provided you're both small).
Nom
03-30-07, 08:38 PM There was a discussion in a RotG article (I think) that suggested a prone creature in another creature's space would need to crawl out before standing.
orionm42
03-30-07, 08:50 PM There was a discussion in a RotG article (I think) that suggested a prone creature in another creature's space would need to crawl out before standing.

Indeed there was...good suggestion Nom.

Here it is...

Formerly Helpless Creatures
It's possible for any creature, friend or foe, to end its movement in a space that contains a helpless creature. Unfortunately, it's also possible for the helpless creature to resume functioning while another creature shares its space. Here are some unofficial suggestions for dealing with the situation.

The formerly helpless creature must remain prone in its space until its turn. If another creature still shares its space when the formerly helpless creature's turn comes, the formerly helpless creature must either exit the space, force the other creature out, or contest the space.

To exit the space, the formerly helpless creature must either crawl into an adjacent space that can hold it, or it must stand up and move to an adjacent space that can hold it. Crawling out of the space provokes attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten the space the creature leaves and from foes that threaten the space the creature crawls into (though the creature can tumble as noted in Part 3).

If the creature stands up, it provokes attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten the space where it stands up. It also must use either a move action or a 5-foot step to get into an adjacent space. If it uses a move action, it provokes attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten the space it left.

To force the other creature out of the shared space, the formerly helpless creature makes a bull rush attack against the creature sharing the space. This works just like a normal bull rush, except that if it fails the opposed check to resolve the bull rush, it remains, prone, in the shared space.

To contest the space, the formerly helpless creature can make a grapple attack on the creature that shares the space. If the formerly helpless creature fails to establish a hold, it remains, prone, in the shared space. If it establishes a hold, it can remain in the shared space and continue to grapple just as it would with any other grapple attempt. (Remember that to maintain a grappling hold an attacker must enter the foe's space.)

If the formerly helpless creature is small enough (or big enough) to end its movement in the shared space (see above), it can simply remain in the shared space. If it decides to stand up, it provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for standing up.

I stand corrected on my initial suggestion above. :)
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 03:39 PM As for a PC jumping into a fray, if he has nowhere to move, he probably is fighting while squeezing. Having too many creatures squeezing into one square would most likely fall to those rules. All attackers take a -4 to attack and all defenders take a -4 to AC. If the PCs are all squeezing and the enemies are all squeezing, it is the same as if no one was squeezing.
Slimgauge
04-05-07, 12:27 PM This situation came up in a game last night. Swarmfighting goblins a two-to-a-square around the PCs. The PCs really want to get past so as to make room for more PCs to come up.

DM ruled that Overrun wouldn't work because by SRD You can make only one overrun attempt per round. and he considered this TWO overrun attempts because there were two goblins the square.

I think the rule should be amended to allow a single overrun attempt to be made agains all creatures who are (legally) occupying the square being overrun. Each creature being overrun gets an AoO and seperately makes the decision to block or to allow the overrunner to pass. The overrunner makes a single die roll, the overrunnees each make a seperated die roll.

What the DM did allow was a bull-rush. He gave the PC a choice of bullrushing one or both of the goblins.

If he'd chosen to bullrush one, he'd have to get a good enough result to push the goblin two squares in order to have a place to stand (since he can't stay in the square with the goblin he didn't bullrush).

The PC chose to bullrush both. The PC got one roll, the goblins made seperate rolls, and the amount of pushback was the lesser of the two.

All in all a resonable ruling, but I wonder if this is clarified somewhere else ? Swarmfighting complicates things.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myzery78 03-30-07, 02:44 PM	Can anyone show me where to find what information is available with regards to allies and enemies sharing squares? We've had some issues come up lately where allies have been forced into the same space and enemies have gone from unconscious to awake after somebody has entered their square.
orionm42 03-30-07, 02:50 PM	here are the general rules Moving through a Square Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover. Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.) Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Overrun: During your movement you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent. Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to tumble through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Tumble skill). Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so. Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is. A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Designated Exceptions: Some creatures break the above rules. A creature that completely fills the squares it occupies cannot be moved past, even with the Tumble skill or similar special abilities. Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. As for the scenario you present about an unconscious character waking up with another character in his square, my initial reaction is to look at the last bolded section above (i.e. move the character who was not unconscious to the last legal position, etc.). As for allies occupying the same space during combat...they can't unless one is helpless. Edit: I also think a mount and his rider can be treated as occupying the same space for the sake of simplicity. A few more specifics about your particular issues might help get a better answer. :)
jadehawk 03-30-07, 05:08 PM	orionm42's details there are pretty much it, except it is missing grappling rules. If you successfully grapple someone, then as a part of the grapple you move into the opponent's square. While grappled, you share the same square.
Myzery78 03-30-07, 05:44 PM	It has come up a few times in recent memory. Once when a necromancer animated zombies in squares the players were standing in(using reach spell), and once when a monster with fast healing was dropped to -1 and then conscious again the next round. Also I've had players jump down a hole in the floor and land in a square already occupied by an ally. In that particular case the rules you mentioned seem to cover it(they would move to the closest available space) however this doesnt really cover what happens if multiple people were to jump into a pit(having no where to go but up), though I know its not a common occurance I have seen it happen. Theres also the question of what happens if the PCs jump into an encloses area filled by enemies. They would not be able to return to a previous square and its likely no open square would be available. One of the main reasons I thought it was possible to willing share a square was the Swarmfighting feat, though a reread of it indicates that under normal circumstances sharing of a space might not be as possible as I had thought.
orionm42 03-30-07, 08:14 PM	A few points of clarification...first, there is some additional information on sharing squares in the DMG starting on page 29 (the section titled “Big and Little Creatures in Combat,” particularly the subsection titled “Mixing it Up.”) Second, the rules for occupying the same space should only be enforced during combat. Outside of combat, friendly creatures can occupy the same square on the grid. So if your players jump down a hole into a five foot square while not engaged in combat, they can all occupy the same square (within reason of course). As far as the necromancer animating undead in an already occupied square...I would have to ask you if there were any other legal positions within range? If so, I would have required him to choose a legal square. If there were no available squares, I probably would have ruled the spell automatically failed. (With that said, I am not sure what "reach spell" is...does it specifically allow a caster to do what you mentioned?) I am also not familiar with the swarmfighting feat, so I can’t help you there. With respect to your scenario where the PCs jump "into an enclosed area filled with enemies,” that is a head scratcher. I probably would not set up a scenario where there are absolutely no legal positions available to begin with, but assuming this is the case, I am not sure how I would rule if a PC tried to enter the area. Hmmmmm….:thinks:
Tichrimo 03-30-07, 08:22 PM	Actually, it's one of the benefits of the swarmfighting feat -- it allows you to occupy the same square as an ally who also has the feat (provided you're both small).
Nom 03-30-07, 08:38 PM	There was a discussion in a RotG article (I think) that suggested a prone creature in another creature's space would need to crawl out before standing.
orionm42 03-30-07, 08:50 PM	There was a discussion in a RotG article (I think) that suggested a prone creature in another creature's space would need to crawl out before standing. Indeed there was...good suggestion Nom. Here it is... Formerly Helpless Creatures It's possible for any creature, friend or foe, to end its movement in a space that contains a helpless creature. Unfortunately, it's also possible for the helpless creature to resume functioning while another creature shares its space. Here are some unofficial suggestions for dealing with the situation. The formerly helpless creature must remain prone in its space until its turn. If another creature still shares its space when the formerly helpless creature's turn comes, the formerly helpless creature must either exit the space, force the other creature out, or contest the space. To exit the space, the formerly helpless creature must either crawl into an adjacent space that can hold it, or it must stand up and move to an adjacent space that can hold it. Crawling out of the space provokes attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten the space the creature leaves and from foes that threaten the space the creature crawls into (though the creature can tumble as noted in Part 3). If the creature stands up, it provokes attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten the space where it stands up. It also must use either a move action or a 5-foot step to get into an adjacent space. If it uses a move action, it provokes attacks of opportunity from foes that threaten the space it left. To force the other creature out of the shared space, the formerly helpless creature makes a bull rush attack against the creature sharing the space. This works just like a normal bull rush, except that if it fails the opposed check to resolve the bull rush, it remains, prone, in the shared space. To contest the space, the formerly helpless creature can make a grapple attack on the creature that shares the space. If the formerly helpless creature fails to establish a hold, it remains, prone, in the shared space. If it establishes a hold, it can remain in the shared space and continue to grapple just as it would with any other grapple attempt. (Remember that to maintain a grappling hold an attacker must enter the foe's space.) If the formerly helpless creature is small enough (or big enough) to end its movement in the shared space (see above), it can simply remain in the shared space. If it decides to stand up, it provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for standing up. I stand corrected on my initial suggestion above. :)
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 03:39 PM	As for a PC jumping into a fray, if he has nowhere to move, he probably is fighting while squeezing. Having too many creatures squeezing into one square would most likely fall to those rules. All attackers take a -4 to attack and all defenders take a -4 to AC. If the PCs are all squeezing and the enemies are all squeezing, it is the same as if no one was squeezing.
Slimgauge 04-05-07, 12:27 PM	This situation came up in a game last night. Swarmfighting goblins a two-to-a-square around the PCs. The PCs really want to get past so as to make room for more PCs to come up. DM ruled that Overrun wouldn't work because by SRD You can make only one overrun attempt per round. and he considered this TWO overrun attempts because there were two goblins the square. I think the rule should be amended to allow a single overrun attempt to be made agains all creatures who are (legally) occupying the square being overrun. Each creature being overrun gets an AoO and seperately makes the decision to block or to allow the overrunner to pass. The overrunner makes a single die roll, the overrunnees each make a seperated die roll. What the DM did allow was a bull-rush. He gave the PC a choice of bullrushing one or both of the goblins. If he'd chosen to bullrush one, he'd have to get a good enough result to push the goblin two squares in order to have a place to stand (since he can't stay in the square with the goblin he didn't bullrush). The PC chose to bullrush both. The PC got one roll, the goblins made seperate rolls, and the amount of pushback was the lesser of the two. All in all a resonable ruling, but I wonder if this is clarified somewhere else ? Swarmfighting complicates things.