Silence Spell and Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Silence Spell and Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DMCuindless
09-18-07, 09:04 PM Fellow DMs,

This is the first time I've encountered this little rules quandry which I would like help with. Does the silence spell disrupt the function of magic items with spell trigger activation? What about command word activation? According to the DMG page 213, spell trigger items have a "single word that must be spoken" to activate the item. This causes me to lean toward the idea that a wizard within the radius of a silence spell wouldn't be able to use a wand. What do you think?

- DMCuindless
Tedronai
09-18-07, 09:33 PM It would interfere with the normal functioning of such an item, but not the 'Activate Blindly' option of Use Magic Device (and other Use Magic Device options would be arguable)
Nom
09-18-07, 11:55 PM Does the silence spell disrupt the function of magic items with spell trigger activation? What about command word activation?Yes to both. If you can't speak (or your speaking is ineffective), then you can't activate either type of item.
It would interfere with the normal functioning of such an item, but not the 'Activate Blindly' option of Use Magic Device (and other Use Magic Device options would be arguable)"Activate blindly" is not "activate silently". It allows you to fudge the command word, not eliminate it. I require the PC to do something that seems approximately like the correct activation sequence; this includes waving, tapping and otherwise manipulating the item and trying random command words.
Colmarr
09-19-07, 02:32 AM Just to throw a fly in the otherwise smooth ointment:

I'm not entirely convinced that a silence effect prevents someone from speaking. It certainly prevents their speech from being heard, but that that's another question entirely.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I thought I'd throw in the fly :)
DMCuindless
09-19-07, 07:48 AM Just to throw a fly in the otherwise smooth ointment:

I'm not entirely convinced that a silence effect prevents someone from speaking. It certainly prevents their speech from being heard, but that that's another question entirely.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I thought I'd throw in the fly :)

Thank you for your fly, Colmarr. It does ask a keen question, though. The exact wording is "single word that must be spoken" (emphasis mine). It doesn't say that word has to be heard. One argument is that the wand (in this case) needs to "hear" the activation word to activate. The other argument is that the wand forms a link to the wielder and only the thought process of speaking is required for both to activate it. One would make silence more powerful, though. I think I'm going to ask the Sage.
Nom
09-19-07, 08:05 AM I'm not entirely convinced that a silence effect prevents someone from speaking. It certainly prevents their speech from being heard, but that that's another question entirely.The silence rules explicitly state that "spells with verbal components cannot be cast". Given this, is it more reasonable to assume that command words function in the absence of words or not?
goawayugh
09-19-07, 11:25 AM Silence:
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped...Command Word

If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates.

If there is no sound, then it would not be speaking, it would be mouthing the words. Silence stops command word activated items from activating.
Colmarr
09-20-07, 12:20 AM The silence rules explicitly state that "spells with verbal components cannot be cast". Given this, is it more reasonable to assume that command words function in the absence of words or not?

I know exactly where you're coming from and the logical aspect of the argument seems pretty clear to me. However, the game balance aspect of the argument is in my opinion a little less clear, which is why I didn't provide an answer to my own question.

The Silence spell was obviously intended to make life difficult for spellcasters. That's its primary purpose. Was it intended that the spell would also negate the vast majority of magic items with commanded abilities (ie. command word and spell trigger activations rather than use-activated)?

I'm not convinced that that was the intention, nor am I convinced that playing it that way doesn't have an unforeseen effect on game balance. Hence I simply raise the issue and let the fly dance in the ointment.

If there is no sound, then it would not be speaking, it would be mouthing the words. Silence stops command word activated items from activating.

I understand your point but I disagree with your logic. Your assertion that "no sound" equals "not speaking" is unfounded (with all due respect :)).

The question at the crux of this issue is whether the status of an activity is determined by the act or by the result. If the former, then speaking is speaking regardless of whether the words are heard. If the latter, then speaking is only speaking when a sound issues. The rules are silent on this issue, as is to be expected. You obviously favour the latter intepretation and I don't fault you for it, but I do think this is one of those areas of the rules where a DM could validly rule either way.
eamon
09-20-07, 10:43 AM @Colmarr: I see the sense in considering Silence to be inordinately powerful if you allow it to block most magic items (except use-activated ones). However, it's certainly simplest and dare I say most consistent to simply consider all speech identical under the effects of silence. Clearly, spellcasting doesn't work within silence, so I think it would be preferable and most consistent not to allow any magic item activation either.

What of balance then?

Well, I actually don't think you're really in trouble here: First, realize that many many items are use-activated (think of +3 sword, say). Those that aren't actually require an action in combat to active, commonly. Usually these kind of items aren't activated frequently in combat at all, since standard actions are mighty scarce in combat. That means the impact, even if you can't activate them, is minor - usually, for most characters.

Generally, Silence allows a saving throw, and is eminently dispellable. Since it's such a low-level spell, that saving throw is one that most characters can make it by the time a 2nd level spell becomes a trivial expenditure. And at low levels, where characters are liable to miss the saving throw, well, they still can manage, and it costs the spellcaster an action (whereas the victim doesn't have that problem), and it only prevents magic items (generally very weak in early levels) from being activated.

So at high levels, when a magic item might really be important, a character will almost always save (making the spell a very wasteful action), and at low levels the effect is so useless it's probably not smart if the only purpose is eliminating magic item activation.

Finally, you can use silence on an arbitrary point in space, or a different creature which tries to stay close. This has the advantage of circumventing the saving throw issue. But it still costs the caster an action, and further, it's effect is still probably minor (it's not that common to need a command activation item in melee), and it's trivial to circumvent: just walk outside the 20ft radius! If that's what it comes down to, then it just makes combat a little more tactical, which isn't a bad thing in my book.

Frankly though, by the time magic item activation is really a big deal, then for those very very few cases in which it really is a tactical disadvantage where you need to activate an item and you need to move to activate it, probably the caster has a lot more powerful options available. And in any case, you can always dispel it or simply retreat and attack again.

All in all: it's not a balance issue allowing silence to inconvenience non-spellcasters. It makes combat more interesting, isn't particularly powerful at any level, and doesn't really introduce combat-determining situations (unlike so many other spells - say, empowered ray of enfeeblement as comparison, in combination with weakening touch and crippling strike.)

It's too situational, too limited of impact, and too easy to circumvent to really be a problem.

That means I'd say, just let silence do the obvious, and treat command words no differently than vocal components of spells: both don't work in silence.
Some_call_me_Tim
09-20-07, 04:33 PM If a Treant falls in the middle of a silence spell does it make a sound?
I guess that depends on whether it makes its will save. :P

Fortunately, the FAQ address the question of magic item activation in silence spell.
Can you activate magic items within the area of a
silence spell?
A silence spell or similar effect prevents the activation of
any magic items that require a command word or other verbal
form of communication. In general, an item’s entry indicates
whether a command word is required, although a few
categories of items bear special mention.
Scrolls and other spell completion items require you to
“perform the simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the
final gestures, words, and so on)” (DMG 213). It’s reasonable
to conclude that any scroll of a spell that has a verbal
component requires spoken words to activate, and thus
wouldn’t work in the area of a silence spell.
Staffs and wands are spell trigger items, which require “a
single word that must be spoken” to activate (DMG 213). Thus,
they don’t work in areas of silence.

Sounds ;) good to me.
PhaedrusXY
09-20-07, 04:44 PM "Activate blindly" is not "activate silently". It allows you to fudge the command word, not eliminate it. I require the PC to do something that seems approximately like the correct activation sequence; this includes waving, tapping and otherwise manipulating the item and trying random command words.Clatto Verata N... Necktie
DMCuindless
09-21-07, 11:45 AM If a Treant falls in the middle of a silence spell does it make a sound?
I guess that depends on whether it makes its will save. :P

Fortunately, the FAQ address the question of magic item activation in silence spell.
Can you activate magic items within the area of a
silence spell?
A silence spell or similar effect prevents the activation of
any magic items that require a command word or other verbal
form of communication. In general, an item’s entry indicates
whether a command word is required, although a few
categories of items bear special mention.
Scrolls and other spell completion items require you to
“perform the simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the
final gestures, words, and so on)” (DMG 213). It’s reasonable
to conclude that any scroll of a spell that has a verbal
component requires spoken words to activate, and thus
wouldn’t work in the area of a silence spell.
Staffs and wands are spell trigger items, which require “a
single word that must be spoken” to activate (DMG 213). Thus,
they don’t work in areas of silence.

Sounds ;) good to me.

Guess that clears that up. Thanks!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMCuindless 09-18-07, 09:04 PM	Fellow DMs, This is the first time I've encountered this little rules quandry which I would like help with. Does the silence spell disrupt the function of magic items with spell trigger activation? What about command word activation? According to the DMG page 213, spell trigger items have a "single word that must be spoken" to activate the item. This causes me to lean toward the idea that a wizard within the radius of a silence spell wouldn't be able to use a wand. What do you think? - DMCuindless
Tedronai 09-18-07, 09:33 PM	It would interfere with the normal functioning of such an item, but not the 'Activate Blindly' option of Use Magic Device (and other Use Magic Device options would be arguable)
Nom 09-18-07, 11:55 PM	Does the silence spell disrupt the function of magic items with spell trigger activation? What about command word activation?Yes to both. If you can't speak (or your speaking is ineffective), then you can't activate either type of item. It would interfere with the normal functioning of such an item, but not the 'Activate Blindly' option of Use Magic Device (and other Use Magic Device options would be arguable)"Activate blindly" is not "activate silently". It allows you to fudge the command word, not eliminate it. I require the PC to do something that seems approximately like the correct activation sequence; this includes waving, tapping and otherwise manipulating the item and trying random command words.
Colmarr 09-19-07, 02:32 AM	Just to throw a fly in the otherwise smooth ointment: I'm not entirely convinced that a silence effect prevents someone from speaking. It certainly prevents their speech from being heard, but that that's another question entirely. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I thought I'd throw in the fly :)
DMCuindless 09-19-07, 07:48 AM	Just to throw a fly in the otherwise smooth ointment: I'm not entirely convinced that a silence effect prevents someone from speaking. It certainly prevents their speech from being heard, but that that's another question entirely. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, but I thought I'd throw in the fly :) Thank you for your fly, Colmarr. It does ask a keen question, though. The exact wording is "single word that must be spoken" (emphasis mine). It doesn't say that word has to be heard. One argument is that the wand (in this case) needs to "hear" the activation word to activate. The other argument is that the wand forms a link to the wielder and only the thought process of speaking is required for both to activate it. One would make silence more powerful, though. I think I'm going to ask the Sage.
Nom 09-19-07, 08:05 AM	I'm not entirely convinced that a silence effect prevents someone from speaking. It certainly prevents their speech from being heard, but that that's another question entirely.The silence rules explicitly state that "spells with verbal components cannot be cast". Given this, is it more reasonable to assume that command words function in the absence of words or not?
goawayugh 09-19-07, 11:25 AM	Silence: Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped...Command Word If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. If there is no sound, then it would not be speaking, it would be mouthing the words. Silence stops command word activated items from activating.
Colmarr 09-20-07, 12:20 AM	The silence rules explicitly state that "spells with verbal components cannot be cast". Given this, is it more reasonable to assume that command words function in the absence of words or not? I know exactly where you're coming from and the logical aspect of the argument seems pretty clear to me. However, the game balance aspect of the argument is in my opinion a little less clear, which is why I didn't provide an answer to my own question. The Silence spell was obviously intended to make life difficult for spellcasters. That's its primary purpose. Was it intended that the spell would also negate the vast majority of magic items with commanded abilities (ie. command word and spell trigger activations rather than use-activated)? I'm not convinced that that was the intention, nor am I convinced that playing it that way doesn't have an unforeseen effect on game balance. Hence I simply raise the issue and let the fly dance in the ointment. If there is no sound, then it would not be speaking, it would be mouthing the words. Silence stops command word activated items from activating. I understand your point but I disagree with your logic. Your assertion that "no sound" equals "not speaking" is unfounded (with all due respect :)). The question at the crux of this issue is whether the status of an activity is determined by the act or by the result. If the former, then speaking is speaking regardless of whether the words are heard. If the latter, then speaking is only speaking when a sound issues. The rules are silent on this issue, as is to be expected. You obviously favour the latter intepretation and I don't fault you for it, but I do think this is one of those areas of the rules where a DM could validly rule either way.
eamon 09-20-07, 10:43 AM	@Colmarr: I see the sense in considering Silence to be inordinately powerful if you allow it to block most magic items (except use-activated ones). However, it's certainly simplest and dare I say most consistent to simply consider all speech identical under the effects of silence. Clearly, spellcasting doesn't work within silence, so I think it would be preferable and most consistent not to allow any magic item activation either. What of balance then? Well, I actually don't think you're really in trouble here: First, realize that many many items are use-activated (think of +3 sword, say). Those that aren't actually require an action in combat to active, commonly. Usually these kind of items aren't activated frequently in combat at all, since standard actions are mighty scarce in combat. That means the impact, even if you can't activate them, is minor - usually, for most characters. Generally, Silence allows a saving throw, and is eminently dispellable. Since it's such a low-level spell, that saving throw is one that most characters can make it by the time a 2nd level spell becomes a trivial expenditure. And at low levels, where characters are liable to miss the saving throw, well, they still can manage, and it costs the spellcaster an action (whereas the victim doesn't have that problem), and it only prevents magic items (generally very weak in early levels) from being activated. So at high levels, when a magic item might really be important, a character will almost always save (making the spell a very wasteful action), and at low levels the effect is so useless it's probably not smart if the only purpose is eliminating magic item activation. Finally, you can use silence on an arbitrary point in space, or a different creature which tries to stay close. This has the advantage of circumventing the saving throw issue. But it still costs the caster an action, and further, it's effect is still probably minor (it's not that common to need a command activation item in melee), and it's trivial to circumvent: just walk outside the 20ft radius! If that's what it comes down to, then it just makes combat a little more tactical, which isn't a bad thing in my book. Frankly though, by the time magic item activation is really a big deal, then for those very very few cases in which it really is a tactical disadvantage where you need to activate an item and you need to move to activate it, probably the caster has a lot more powerful options available. And in any case, you can always dispel it or simply retreat and attack again. All in all: it's not a balance issue allowing silence to inconvenience non-spellcasters. It makes combat more interesting, isn't particularly powerful at any level, and doesn't really introduce combat-determining situations (unlike so many other spells - say, empowered ray of enfeeblement as comparison, in combination with weakening touch and crippling strike.) It's too situational, too limited of impact, and too easy to circumvent to really be a problem. That means I'd say, just let silence do the obvious, and treat command words no differently than vocal components of spells: both don't work in silence.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-20-07, 04:33 PM	If a Treant falls in the middle of a silence spell does it make a sound? I guess that depends on whether it makes its will save. :P Fortunately, the FAQ address the question of magic item activation in silence spell. Can you activate magic items within the area of a silence spell? A silence spell or similar effect prevents the activation of any magic items that require a command word or other verbal form of communication. In general, an item’s entry indicates whether a command word is required, although a few categories of items bear special mention. Scrolls and other spell completion items require you to “perform the simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on)” (DMG 213). It’s reasonable to conclude that any scroll of a spell that has a verbal component requires spoken words to activate, and thus wouldn’t work in the area of a silence spell. Staffs and wands are spell trigger items, which require “a single word that must be spoken” to activate (DMG 213). Thus, they don’t work in areas of silence. Sounds ;) good to me.
PhaedrusXY 09-20-07, 04:44 PM	"Activate blindly" is not "activate silently". It allows you to fudge the command word, not eliminate it. I require the PC to do something that seems approximately like the correct activation sequence; this includes waving, tapping and otherwise manipulating the item and trying random command words.Clatto Verata N... Necktie
DMCuindless 09-21-07, 11:45 AM	If a Treant falls in the middle of a silence spell does it make a sound? I guess that depends on whether it makes its will save. :P Fortunately, the FAQ address the question of magic item activation in silence spell. Can you activate magic items within the area of a silence spell? A silence spell or similar effect prevents the activation of any magic items that require a command word or other verbal form of communication. In general, an item’s entry indicates whether a command word is required, although a few categories of items bear special mention. Scrolls and other spell completion items require you to “perform the simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on)” (DMG 213). It’s reasonable to conclude that any scroll of a spell that has a verbal component requires spoken words to activate, and thus wouldn’t work in the area of a silence spell. Staffs and wands are spell trigger items, which require “a single word that must be spoken” to activate (DMG 213). Thus, they don’t work in areas of silence. Sounds ;) good to me. Guess that clears that up. Thanks!