Simple Question About Sleeping [Archive] - Wizards Community

Simple Question About Sleeping [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ermedic
09-06-07, 01:18 AM This came up at my game tonight. Where can I find rules regarding lack of sleep? How long can a character go without sleeping before making some sort of check (presumably a Con check or Fort save)? What is the DC of said check? I know I've read it but I can't seem to find it now, regardless of how many times I've searched through the DMG & PHB. If anybody can give me a book and page number or copy/paste an entry from the SRD, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.
Kouk
09-06-07, 04:30 AM This came up at my game tonight. Where can I find rules regarding lack of sleep? How long can a character go without sleeping before making some sort of check (presumably a Con check or Fort save)? What is the DC of said check? I know I've read it but I can't seem to find it now, regardless of how many times I've searched through the DMG & PHB. If anybody can give me a book and page number or copy/paste an entry from the SRD, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

Hmm, I don't know where you read about it but I would like to know. Sleeping is one of the more noticeable omissions from the core rules.

I think - and many people have their own opinions - that if you don't sleep adequately at least after 24 hours, that you become Fatigued. If you stay up for the next 24 hours while Fatigued you will be Exhausted. Any more than that, and I guess I would call for CON checks to keep from passing out.

It's pretty much your call, but I recommend keeping it as simple as possible because it is not likely to come up and there is not much sense in making up a complicated rule that never comes into play.
heffroncm
09-06-07, 04:34 AM I spent probably and hour looking. I can't for the life of me find it. I was so sure you ended up Fatigued after the first day and Exhausted after the second day as well.
goawayugh
09-06-07, 02:06 PM They must be somewhere (I didn't bother looking). I remember reading that somewhere too. Fatigued after the first day, exhausted after the second.
mvincent
09-06-07, 02:09 PM From the WotC Help database (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=999) (if desired):
"Sleeping in Dungeons and Dragons
Message
If my character doesn't sleep, does he/she receive any penalties?

Answer
The rules are silent on not sleeping at all, but based on the penalties you receive from a night of uncomfortable rest (page 122 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, under Sleeping with Armor Worn) a Dungeon Master could assume that not sleeping at all could have some pretty hefty penalties. One house rule could be that the person becomes exhausted after not sleeping an entire night. But of course, since there are no rules covering this situation, it is ultimately up to the Dungeon Master of your campaign to determine how he/she wants to handle a character who hasn't slept."
Magrus
09-06-07, 02:40 PM If you want to base it off of things in real life and compare it to the rules on sleeping uncomfortably, I would suggest being exhausted after the first day unless you have a high Fort and Will save. Sleep deprivation affects the mind more than the body often due to the fact people often rest even if they can't sleep. So, if they just aren't sleeping, say trapped somewhere keeping watch, that would affect someone differently than a person running for their life for days on end.

Realistically, extended sleep deprivation can cause hallucinations of all sorts, memory loss, psychosis, and mental health problems on a mental standpoint. Anything past 72 hours of no sleep in real life puts you at risk for any of the above. Anything beyond 7-10 days I think puts you at risk for permanent damage. I went without sleep for a very, very long time years ago and it definitely caused intense hallucinations. More along the lines of depictions of what it is like being on LSD than anything else I could compare it to.

It could get complicated involving all of that, however you could get vary detailed if you wanted. Not any of it is guaranteed, but it becomes increasingly more probable the longer you go without sleep.

I would set DC's for Fort Saves the first 2 days.

First day roll for Fatigued to keep it simple.
Second, Exhausted.
Third, roll a Fort and Will save. If they fail the Fort save, your physical body isn't able to keep up with the demands as well, and you take a -1 penalty on physical checks and ability scores until you've rested for 1 8 hour block per day lost. If the Will save is failed, roll on a random insanity table of some sort. Hallucinations start very minor at first, but do progress over extended periods of time. Auditory is usually the first to hit, then visual. Memory loss is the next most likely thing to occur.

After that, I would keep improving the DC involved on each check and make them roll a check for Fort and Will each day. If they were resting, keep the saves only going up by +1 each day. If they were running around and fighting all day, I might put them up by +3 each day instead.

After a few weeks, the body reacts to keep you alive and starts draining resources to do so. I never really bothered to get into the details of how and why, but often a mania sets in. You end up energetic even though you are hallucinating, and often delusional. What is going on around you will set the type of hallucinations and delusions as well. If you are in a peaceful building, you may see the walls moving and thinking that there is an earthquake or something. If you are being attacked by Hydra's...well, that could end up causing you to react horribly. Even being startled by an ally while feeling threatened could resort in a beserk attempt at defending yourself.
ermedic
09-06-07, 03:10 PM Thanks for all the replies. Magrus: you are absolutely correct. Having personally been without any form of sleep or rest for over 72 hours on more than one occasion, I can honestly say that your method would be very realistic. However, from a game mechanic standpoint, I feel it is a bit cumbersome. I'm rather surprised that there aren't any rules for lack of sleep. I am further surprised that it apparently has not been addressed by any official source such as the Sage (I have my own reasons for overlooking virtually any response provided by customer service but that's another matter entirely). I suppose I'll come up with a house rule on the subject. How does this sound (keep in mind, it's off the cuff):

Any character who remains awake for more than 24 hours becomes fatigued. Thereafter, the character must attempt a Con check every hour to avoid becoming exhausted. The DC of the check is 10 + 1 per hour after the initial twenty-four that the character remains awake. For example, Jozan spends a day administering long-term care to the rest of his party. The party is now fully rested, healed, and ready to continue on their mission. Unfortunately, Jozan is now fatigued (having been awake for 24 hours). After another hour, Jozan attempts a Con check DC 11. Jozan gets a total of 14, succeeding on his check. After another hour, Jozan attempts another Con check (DC 12). His total is 11, failing the check and causing him to become exhausted.
Clearly_Toughpick
09-11-07, 08:48 AM For what it's worth, there was another thread about this recently at...
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918141&highlight=sleep
jacob22
09-11-07, 10:38 AM The only place I saw this rule was in AD&D first edition in the wilderness guide. Sorry I don't remember it off the top of my head. But I do remember it lead to con checks and possible exhaustion which can lose you levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ermedic 09-06-07, 01:18 AM	This came up at my game tonight. Where can I find rules regarding lack of sleep? How long can a character go without sleeping before making some sort of check (presumably a Con check or Fort save)? What is the DC of said check? I know I've read it but I can't seem to find it now, regardless of how many times I've searched through the DMG & PHB. If anybody can give me a book and page number or copy/paste an entry from the SRD, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.
Kouk 09-06-07, 04:30 AM	This came up at my game tonight. Where can I find rules regarding lack of sleep? How long can a character go without sleeping before making some sort of check (presumably a Con check or Fort save)? What is the DC of said check? I know I've read it but I can't seem to find it now, regardless of how many times I've searched through the DMG & PHB. If anybody can give me a book and page number or copy/paste an entry from the SRD, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks. Hmm, I don't know where you read about it but I would like to know. Sleeping is one of the more noticeable omissions from the core rules. I think - and many people have their own opinions - that if you don't sleep adequately at least after 24 hours, that you become Fatigued. If you stay up for the next 24 hours while Fatigued you will be Exhausted. Any more than that, and I guess I would call for CON checks to keep from passing out. It's pretty much your call, but I recommend keeping it as simple as possible because it is not likely to come up and there is not much sense in making up a complicated rule that never comes into play.
heffroncm 09-06-07, 04:34 AM	I spent probably and hour looking. I can't for the life of me find it. I was so sure you ended up Fatigued after the first day and Exhausted after the second day as well.
goawayugh 09-06-07, 02:06 PM	They must be somewhere (I didn't bother looking). I remember reading that somewhere too. Fatigued after the first day, exhausted after the second.
mvincent 09-06-07, 02:09 PM	From the WotC Help database (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=999) (if desired): "Sleeping in Dungeons and Dragons Message If my character doesn't sleep, does he/she receive any penalties? Answer The rules are silent on not sleeping at all, but based on the penalties you receive from a night of uncomfortable rest (page 122 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, under Sleeping with Armor Worn) a Dungeon Master could assume that not sleeping at all could have some pretty hefty penalties. One house rule could be that the person becomes exhausted after not sleeping an entire night. But of course, since there are no rules covering this situation, it is ultimately up to the Dungeon Master of your campaign to determine how he/she wants to handle a character who hasn't slept."
Magrus 09-06-07, 02:40 PM	If you want to base it off of things in real life and compare it to the rules on sleeping uncomfortably, I would suggest being exhausted after the first day unless you have a high Fort and Will save. Sleep deprivation affects the mind more than the body often due to the fact people often rest even if they can't sleep. So, if they just aren't sleeping, say trapped somewhere keeping watch, that would affect someone differently than a person running for their life for days on end. Realistically, extended sleep deprivation can cause hallucinations of all sorts, memory loss, psychosis, and mental health problems on a mental standpoint. Anything past 72 hours of no sleep in real life puts you at risk for any of the above. Anything beyond 7-10 days I think puts you at risk for permanent damage. I went without sleep for a very, very long time years ago and it definitely caused intense hallucinations. More along the lines of depictions of what it is like being on LSD than anything else I could compare it to. It could get complicated involving all of that, however you could get vary detailed if you wanted. Not any of it is guaranteed, but it becomes increasingly more probable the longer you go without sleep. I would set DC's for Fort Saves the first 2 days. First day roll for Fatigued to keep it simple. Second, Exhausted. Third, roll a Fort and Will save. If they fail the Fort save, your physical body isn't able to keep up with the demands as well, and you take a -1 penalty on physical checks and ability scores until you've rested for 1 8 hour block per day lost. If the Will save is failed, roll on a random insanity table of some sort. Hallucinations start very minor at first, but do progress over extended periods of time. Auditory is usually the first to hit, then visual. Memory loss is the next most likely thing to occur. After that, I would keep improving the DC involved on each check and make them roll a check for Fort and Will each day. If they were resting, keep the saves only going up by +1 each day. If they were running around and fighting all day, I might put them up by +3 each day instead. After a few weeks, the body reacts to keep you alive and starts draining resources to do so. I never really bothered to get into the details of how and why, but often a mania sets in. You end up energetic even though you are hallucinating, and often delusional. What is going on around you will set the type of hallucinations and delusions as well. If you are in a peaceful building, you may see the walls moving and thinking that there is an earthquake or something. If you are being attacked by Hydra's...well, that could end up causing you to react horribly. Even being startled by an ally while feeling threatened could resort in a beserk attempt at defending yourself.
ermedic 09-06-07, 03:10 PM	Thanks for all the replies. Magrus: you are absolutely correct. Having personally been without any form of sleep or rest for over 72 hours on more than one occasion, I can honestly say that your method would be very realistic. However, from a game mechanic standpoint, I feel it is a bit cumbersome. I'm rather surprised that there aren't any rules for lack of sleep. I am further surprised that it apparently has not been addressed by any official source such as the Sage (I have my own reasons for overlooking virtually any response provided by customer service but that's another matter entirely). I suppose I'll come up with a house rule on the subject. How does this sound (keep in mind, it's off the cuff): Any character who remains awake for more than 24 hours becomes fatigued. Thereafter, the character must attempt a Con check every hour to avoid becoming exhausted. The DC of the check is 10 + 1 per hour after the initial twenty-four that the character remains awake. For example, Jozan spends a day administering long-term care to the rest of his party. The party is now fully rested, healed, and ready to continue on their mission. Unfortunately, Jozan is now fatigued (having been awake for 24 hours). After another hour, Jozan attempts a Con check DC 11. Jozan gets a total of 14, succeeding on his check. After another hour, Jozan attempts another Con check (DC 12). His total is 11, failing the check and causing him to become exhausted.
Clearly_Toughpick 09-11-07, 08:48 AM	For what it's worth, there was another thread about this recently at... http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=918141&highlight=sleep
jacob22 09-11-07, 10:38 AM	The only place I saw this rule was in AD&D first edition in the wilderness guide. Sorry I don't remember it off the top of my head. But I do remember it lead to con checks and possible exhaustion which can lose you levels.