Sleep spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sleep spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GilGaer
01-28-08, 03:56 PM Hi

I'm new to mastering (new to dnd gaming would even be more accurate) and I got a question about the sleep spell. Let me explain the context: we're playing the shattered gates of slaughtergarde and at some point my players encounter a goblin cleric (must be 2 or 3HD - I don't have my handout here). This was suppose to be the climatic battle of the first part but... first the cleric of the party (all 1st level, by the way) managed to turn the three minions of the evil cleric, just before the sorcerer of the party cast a sleep spell on the said evil cleric (which of course failed his will save). The party could slaughter the whole pack without losing a single hit point - not that it causes me any problem, mind you - I was just thinking I was doing something wrong but could not spot where.... could someone tell me how his should have been handled?

Cheers

GilGaer
Mysteria
01-28-08, 04:05 PM Not anything I can see ... Looks like the players got lucky. :)

(I take it that the cleric was the only one in the sleep spell's radius? Because if there were party members in the same radius, those would have been affected first as they'd only have 1HD and thus less than the cleric and sleep affects those with less HD first.)
Sinis
01-28-08, 05:27 PM You did nothing wrong. It's just unlucky that the goblin failed the save, and that the cleric made his turning check.

That isn't to say that Sleep and Turning are weak, mind you.
Wih
01-28-08, 11:56 PM Keep in mind that Sleep has a 1 round casting time. He starts casting Sleep, the Goblin makes his Spellcraft roll to figure out what spell it is, and fires a ranged projectile at him to spoil the spell, or holds an action to move out of the way of where he places the spell. Option one means the Sorceror needs to make a concentration check or lose the spell 9aswell as taking damage), option two means that since the Cleric is no longer within the effect of the spell, he isn't effected, and the Sorceror's spell is ineffective (at the cost of the Goblin losing his standard action).
GilGaer
01-29-08, 01:56 AM Thanks. I was mistaken with the spell casting time... I basically did not let goblin cleric time to react... who said I was a noob :D
Tedronai
01-29-08, 02:09 AM Actually, a spellcraft check made during the casting will in no way allow the cleric to determine where the spell is going to be placed, since the sorceror does not have to decide ANYTHING of that sort until the completion of the spell.
Sinis
01-29-08, 04:08 PM Actually, a spellcraft check made during the casting will in no way allow the cleric to determine where the spell is going to be placed, since the sorceror does not have to decide ANYTHING of that sort until the completion of the spell.

Sure. So in the situation cited, the goblin has to reason through a couple of things:

1. His undead minions who were turned are not vulnerable to sleep, and the PCs probably know that.

2. He's the only hostile target remaining that sleep could affect.

The puzzle is not hard to figure out. When Wih said "hold an action to move out of the sleep radius" I'm sure he meant simply "hold an action to move".
Wih
01-29-08, 05:46 PM The puzzle is not hard to figure out. When Wih said "hold an action to move out of the sleep radius" I'm sure he meant simply "hold an action to move".

Pretty much the same thing - The sorceror finishes casting, chooses where to place the spell, and then the Cleric's action kicks in. Before the spell takes effect, but after the placment point is chosen, the Cleric moves 15' away from it, getting out of the radius, and is no longer in the effect of it.
Is that a more thourough description?
Tedronai
01-29-08, 11:16 PM Pretty much the same thing - The sorceror finishes casting, chooses where to place the spell, and then the Cleric's action kicks in. Before the spell takes effect, but after the placment point is chosen, the Cleric moves 15' away from it, getting out of the radius, and is no longer in the effect of it.
Is that a more thourough description?

It's better than a thourough description. It's a description that works.
Father Dale
01-30-08, 11:09 PM Pretty much the same thing - The sorceror finishes casting, chooses where to place the spell, and then the Cleric's action kicks in. Before the spell takes effect, but after the placment point is chosen, the Cleric moves 15' away from it, getting out of the radius, and is no longer in the effect of it.
Is that a more thourough description?

Are you kidding? You're suggesting that Mr. Goblin can ready an action to be triggered upon the condition of "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect?" And that further, he can take an action in between the time when said sorcerer makes that decision and when the spell comes into effect?

Seriously??
Wih
01-31-08, 12:18 AM Are you kidding? You're suggesting that Mr. Goblin can ready an action to be triggered upon the condition of "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect?" And that further, he can take an action in between the time when said sorcerer makes that decision and when the spell comes into effect?

Seriously??

Yes, as long as the Cleric makes his Spellcraft check to identify the spell. Readied actions can interrupt anything - you can hold an action to interrupt a Quickened spell. You can use Great Cleave, potentially making 20 different attacks in the time it takes someone to run less than 5'. Time is not an issue with the way the initiative system works.
Father Dale
01-31-08, 01:40 AM Well I would strongly disagree with this.

First, I don't think Mr. Goblin can determine "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect" occurs, even making a spellcraft check. Thats like readying an action for "right before the speaker stops talking."

Second, I don't think there is any time in between "deciding where to center a spell effect" and "the spell effect taking place." Those aren't two separate things that are occurring there, one after the other...thats one thing happening.

Third, and for similar reasoning as above, since there is no time occuring between "the decision" and "the effect," there is no time for Mr. Goblin to take any action, much less move 15 feet.

Fourth, even if you would allow Mr. Goblin to ready an action for this, and even if you would allow him to move 15 feet, Mr. Goblin's action would occur before the triggering action anyways; hence, Mr. Sorcerer could simply redirect the spell to Mr. Goblins new location. (This is similar to attempting to trip an opponent who is standing up from prone, provoking an Attack of Opportunity from you: since your trip attempt occurs before the prone opponent attempts to stand, he is still prone when you try to trip him. Thus, even if you successfully 'trip' your prone opponent, he can simply continue to stand up unhindered.)

The examples you give are not analagous to this. Readying an action to attack if a spellcaster casts a spell, even a quickened one, is not the same..its premised on the spellcaster "doing something" perceptible, and it occurs before the triggering action is made. Great Cleave is really just one big attack, even though multiple attack rolls are made; its essentially such a powerful attack that it cuts through multiple opponents in one swing. Thus, all the attacks are occuring at essentially the same time. (For similar reasons, you couldn't ready an action to be triggered upon an opponenet making a Cleave attack.)
Wih
01-31-08, 08:01 PM Well I would strongly disagree with this.

First, I don't think Mr. Goblin can determine "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect" occurs, even making a spellcraft check. Thats like readying an action for "right before the speaker stops talking."
The examples you give are not analagous to this. A better example would be between a speaker's words, or between when an archer aims his bow at a target and releases an arrow - of which both are perfectly valid options.
Even if you're playing a game where the GM won't let you know where the spell is centered, moving 20 feet away from your current position will most likely get you out of the blast radius, unless the spellcasternot only knew you were going to move, and somehow also knew the direction too. So unless the spellcaster knew your tactic before, or is metagaming, you still get out.

Second, I don't think there is any time in between "deciding where to center a spell effect" and "the spell effect taking place." Those aren't two separate things that are occurring there, one after the other...thats one thing happening.
Wether or not there is any time difference, an interruption take precident and is resolved before any continuence of the action that triggered it.
If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
Completion of your action will be moving out of the blast area of the spell, the spell then gets cetnered in a spot you are no longer in.

Third, and for similar reasoning as above, since there is no time occuring between "the decision" and "the effect," there is no time for Mr. Goblin to take any action, much less move 15 feet.
There is time for a readied action, because a readied action interrupts the initiative order and is completely resolved before any other action continues. See above.

Fourth, even if you would allow Mr. Goblin to ready an action for this, and even if you would allow him to move 15 feet, Mr. Goblin's action would occur before the triggering action anyways; hence, Mr. Sorcerer could simply redirect the spell to Mr. Goblins new location.
Almost. You move after he's cetnered the spell, but before it takes effect. Sorceror cant withdraw the spell, and you get to move.
(This is similar to attempting to trip an opponent who is standing up from prone, provoking an Attack of Opportunity from you: since your trip attempt occurs before the prone opponent attempts to stand, he is still prone when you try to trip him. Thus, even if you successfully 'trip' your prone opponent, he can simply continue to stand up unhindered.)
You cannot trip someone who is already prone, that's silly. You just smack them one, or disarm them. Much more effective.

The examples you give are not analagous to this. Readying an action to attack if a spellcaster casts a spell, even a quickened one, is not the same..its premised on the spellcaster "doing something" perceptible, and it occurs before the triggering action is made. Great Cleave is really just one big attack, even though multiple attack rolls are made; its essentially such a powerful attack that it cuts through multiple opponents in one swing. Thus, all the attacks are occuring at essentially the same time. (For similar reasons, you couldn't ready an action to be triggered upon an opponenet making a Cleave attack.)
I'll state again: You can ready an action for any foreseeable event, including actions that take no time whatsoever. Readying for a Cleave attempt is perfectly reasonable, though relatively silly - unless you can quote the SRD, PHB, Rules of the Game or somewhere that proves your point?

Anyway, if you still aren't convinced, so be it. We can agree to disagree, and you can make house-rules in your game.
Rood_Inverse
01-31-08, 08:17 PM Are you kidding? You're suggesting that Mr. Goblin can ready an action to be triggered upon the condition of "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect?" And that further, he can take an action in between the time when said sorcerer makes that decision and when the spell comes into effect?

Seriously??

I know what you mean. This is why I avoid certain types of gamers (which seems to be a majority in my immediate geographic area). They treat D&D, and its rules, more closely akin to M:TG.

Very hardcore rules lawyer people, who don't really play the game, so much as read the errata and recite it back.

Every time I hear one of the local gamers say "by RAW" and rationalize a passage like that, I feel the spirit of the game die a little more.
Father Dale
01-31-08, 08:20 PM Please.

From PHB p. 174 and the SRD:

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

As it is quite clear, the decision making occurs AT THE SAME TIME as when the spell comes into effect. That is, they occur simultaneously, per the Rules as Written.

Thus, even permitting your example of Readying an action for when the sorcerer decides to center his spell effect, you are stuck with two options--that is, if you are sticking by the RAW. Either, a) You can take your readied action BEFORE the spell comes into effect, which means Mr. Sorcerer can then center his spell AFTER you take your readied action, or b) You can take your readied action AFTER he makes his decision, in which case the spell has already come into effect. Because the sorcerer makes his decisions "when the spell comes into effect."

Nothing in the Special Initiative Action section discusses the possibility of readying an action to be triggered before one but after the other of two simultaneous events. Not only is there no support for this in the rules, it is logically absurd as well. The best you can point to is the example of "if she starts casting a spell." Anything further is adding your own interpretation to the rules.
Wih
01-31-08, 09:51 PM No need to start getting uppity, Father Dale. I've been perfectly civil, there's no need to yell in your typing. Since you've actually quoted a passage that shows that you're correct, I'm content to say you're correct on your judgement of the rules, now that you actually have some backing from the rules itself, not just your assumptions on how time works in the 3rd edition initiative system.

Rood_Inverse - DnD is a game of heroic Fantasy. There are people who are breaking the rules of physics by creating and destroying mass, and people attacking twenty people in less than six seconds. I think someone barely diving out of the range of a magic spell that would cause him to fall asleep just before it took effect fits in with heroic fantasy quite well.
There's a difference between RAW and RAI. The RAI with readied actions is that they completely interrupt the action they're held for. I was running off that, and found RAW that I found to back up my claim. If you're going to rally against rules lawyers who want to stop our fun in gaming by saying that we can't do things that are cool and fun, then look elsewhere.
Plus, this forum is DM Rules Counselling. This forum is all about the rules - so don't complain about there appearance of the RAW here.
Rood_Inverse
02-01-08, 12:04 AM I think someone barely diving out of the range of a magic spell that would cause him to fall asleep just before it took effect fits in with heroic fantasy quite well.

See, I always understood that part to be covered in the Saving Throws. RAW doesn't have to be dissected and broken down like that.

I like to pretend I shave with Occam's Razor. When you have to break down the rules, cite and shepardize a single narrowly-construed instance to prove your point... You either have too many and too complex rules, or you're trying to hard to see what's not there.

I am... Fortunate enough to have had Father Dale come up with the razor ruling that backed up my above philosophy (in convenient 20-20, and tonge planted firmly in cheek chagrinned hindsight).
pedro2112
02-01-08, 02:15 PM shepardize.

Where is the trademark symbol?

;)
Father Dale
02-01-08, 04:34 PM heh....

When did Westlaw start publishing DnD reporters? lol

1 W.o.T.C. 225, 1 P.H.B. 2d 15 (2007)

should we start using Bluebook citation rules too? :rofl:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GilGaer 01-28-08, 03:56 PM	Hi I'm new to mastering (new to dnd gaming would even be more accurate) and I got a question about the sleep spell. Let me explain the context: we're playing the shattered gates of slaughtergarde and at some point my players encounter a goblin cleric (must be 2 or 3HD - I don't have my handout here). This was suppose to be the climatic battle of the first part but... first the cleric of the party (all 1st level, by the way) managed to turn the three minions of the evil cleric, just before the sorcerer of the party cast a sleep spell on the said evil cleric (which of course failed his will save). The party could slaughter the whole pack without losing a single hit point - not that it causes me any problem, mind you - I was just thinking I was doing something wrong but could not spot where.... could someone tell me how his should have been handled? Cheers GilGaer
Mysteria 01-28-08, 04:05 PM	Not anything I can see ... Looks like the players got lucky. :) (I take it that the cleric was the only one in the sleep spell's radius? Because if there were party members in the same radius, those would have been affected first as they'd only have 1HD and thus less than the cleric and sleep affects those with less HD first.)
Sinis 01-28-08, 05:27 PM	You did nothing wrong. It's just unlucky that the goblin failed the save, and that the cleric made his turning check. That isn't to say that Sleep and Turning are weak, mind you.
Wih 01-28-08, 11:56 PM	Keep in mind that Sleep has a 1 round casting time. He starts casting Sleep, the Goblin makes his Spellcraft roll to figure out what spell it is, and fires a ranged projectile at him to spoil the spell, or holds an action to move out of the way of where he places the spell. Option one means the Sorceror needs to make a concentration check or lose the spell 9aswell as taking damage), option two means that since the Cleric is no longer within the effect of the spell, he isn't effected, and the Sorceror's spell is ineffective (at the cost of the Goblin losing his standard action).
GilGaer 01-29-08, 01:56 AM	Thanks. I was mistaken with the spell casting time... I basically did not let goblin cleric time to react... who said I was a noob :D
Tedronai 01-29-08, 02:09 AM	Actually, a spellcraft check made during the casting will in no way allow the cleric to determine where the spell is going to be placed, since the sorceror does not have to decide ANYTHING of that sort until the completion of the spell.
Sinis 01-29-08, 04:08 PM	Actually, a spellcraft check made during the casting will in no way allow the cleric to determine where the spell is going to be placed, since the sorceror does not have to decide ANYTHING of that sort until the completion of the spell. Sure. So in the situation cited, the goblin has to reason through a couple of things: 1. His undead minions who were turned are not vulnerable to sleep, and the PCs probably know that. 2. He's the only hostile target remaining that sleep could affect. The puzzle is not hard to figure out. When Wih said "hold an action to move out of the sleep radius" I'm sure he meant simply "hold an action to move".
Wih 01-29-08, 05:46 PM	The puzzle is not hard to figure out. When Wih said "hold an action to move out of the sleep radius" I'm sure he meant simply "hold an action to move". Pretty much the same thing - The sorceror finishes casting, chooses where to place the spell, and then the Cleric's action kicks in. Before the spell takes effect, but after the placment point is chosen, the Cleric moves 15' away from it, getting out of the radius, and is no longer in the effect of it. Is that a more thourough description?
Tedronai 01-29-08, 11:16 PM	Pretty much the same thing - The sorceror finishes casting, chooses where to place the spell, and then the Cleric's action kicks in. Before the spell takes effect, but after the placment point is chosen, the Cleric moves 15' away from it, getting out of the radius, and is no longer in the effect of it. Is that a more thourough description? It's better than a thourough description. It's a description that works.
Father Dale 01-30-08, 11:09 PM	Pretty much the same thing - The sorceror finishes casting, chooses where to place the spell, and then the Cleric's action kicks in. Before the spell takes effect, but after the placment point is chosen, the Cleric moves 15' away from it, getting out of the radius, and is no longer in the effect of it. Is that a more thourough description? Are you kidding? You're suggesting that Mr. Goblin can ready an action to be triggered upon the condition of "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect?" And that further, he can take an action in between the time when said sorcerer makes that decision and when the spell comes into effect? Seriously??
Wih 01-31-08, 12:18 AM	Are you kidding? You're suggesting that Mr. Goblin can ready an action to be triggered upon the condition of "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect?" And that further, he can take an action in between the time when said sorcerer makes that decision and when the spell comes into effect? Seriously?? Yes, as long as the Cleric makes his Spellcraft check to identify the spell. Readied actions can interrupt anything - you can hold an action to interrupt a Quickened spell. You can use Great Cleave, potentially making 20 different attacks in the time it takes someone to run less than 5'. Time is not an issue with the way the initiative system works.
Father Dale 01-31-08, 01:40 AM	Well I would strongly disagree with this. First, I don't think Mr. Goblin can determine "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect" occurs, even making a spellcraft check. Thats like readying an action for "right before the speaker stops talking." Second, I don't think there is any time in between "deciding where to center a spell effect" and "the spell effect taking place." Those aren't two separate things that are occurring there, one after the other...thats one thing happening. Third, and for similar reasoning as above, since there is no time occuring between "the decision" and "the effect," there is no time for Mr. Goblin to take any action, much less move 15 feet. Fourth, even if you would allow Mr. Goblin to ready an action for this, and even if you would allow him to move 15 feet, Mr. Goblin's action would occur before the triggering action anyways; hence, Mr. Sorcerer could simply redirect the spell to Mr. Goblins new location. (This is similar to attempting to trip an opponent who is standing up from prone, provoking an Attack of Opportunity from you: since your trip attempt occurs before the prone opponent attempts to stand, he is still prone when you try to trip him. Thus, even if you successfully 'trip' your prone opponent, he can simply continue to stand up unhindered.) The examples you give are not analagous to this. Readying an action to attack if a spellcaster casts a spell, even a quickened one, is not the same..its premised on the spellcaster "doing something" perceptible, and it occurs before the triggering action is made. Great Cleave is really just one big attack, even though multiple attack rolls are made; its essentially such a powerful attack that it cuts through multiple opponents in one swing. Thus, all the attacks are occuring at essentially the same time. (For similar reasons, you couldn't ready an action to be triggered upon an opponenet making a Cleave attack.)
Wih 01-31-08, 08:01 PM	Well I would strongly disagree with this. First, I don't think Mr. Goblin can determine "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect" occurs, even making a spellcraft check. Thats like readying an action for "right before the speaker stops talking." The examples you give are not analagous to this. A better example would be between a speaker's words, or between when an archer aims his bow at a target and releases an arrow - of which both are perfectly valid options. Even if you're playing a game where the GM won't let you know where the spell is centered, moving 20 feet away from your current position will most likely get you out of the blast radius, unless the spellcasternot only knew you were going to move, and somehow also knew the direction too. So unless the spellcaster knew your tactic before, or is metagaming, you still get out. Second, I don't think there is any time in between "deciding where to center a spell effect" and "the spell effect taking place." Those aren't two separate things that are occurring there, one after the other...thats one thing happening. Wether or not there is any time difference, an interruption take precident and is resolved before any continuence of the action that triggered it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Completion of your action will be moving out of the blast area of the spell, the spell then gets cetnered in a spot you are no longer in. Third, and for similar reasoning as above, since there is no time occuring between "the decision" and "the effect," there is no time for Mr. Goblin to take any action, much less move 15 feet. There is time for a readied action, because a readied action interrupts the initiative order and is completely resolved before any other action continues. See above. Fourth, even if you would allow Mr. Goblin to ready an action for this, and even if you would allow him to move 15 feet, Mr. Goblin's action would occur before the triggering action anyways; hence, Mr. Sorcerer could simply redirect the spell to Mr. Goblins new location. Almost. You move after he's cetnered the spell, but before it takes effect. Sorceror cant withdraw the spell, and you get to move. (This is similar to attempting to trip an opponent who is standing up from prone, provoking an Attack of Opportunity from you: since your trip attempt occurs before the prone opponent attempts to stand, he is still prone when you try to trip him. Thus, even if you successfully 'trip' your prone opponent, he can simply continue to stand up unhindered.) You cannot trip someone who is already prone, that's silly. You just smack them one, or disarm them. Much more effective. The examples you give are not analagous to this. Readying an action to attack if a spellcaster casts a spell, even a quickened one, is not the same..its premised on the spellcaster "doing something" perceptible, and it occurs before the triggering action is made. Great Cleave is really just one big attack, even though multiple attack rolls are made; its essentially such a powerful attack that it cuts through multiple opponents in one swing. Thus, all the attacks are occuring at essentially the same time. (For similar reasons, you couldn't ready an action to be triggered upon an opponenet making a Cleave attack.) I'll state again: You can ready an action for any foreseeable event, including actions that take no time whatsoever. Readying for a Cleave attempt is perfectly reasonable, though relatively silly - unless you can quote the SRD, PHB, Rules of the Game or somewhere that proves your point? Anyway, if you still aren't convinced, so be it. We can agree to disagree, and you can make house-rules in your game.
Rood_Inverse 01-31-08, 08:17 PM	Are you kidding? You're suggesting that Mr. Goblin can ready an action to be triggered upon the condition of "when the sorcerer decides where to center a spell effect?" And that further, he can take an action in between the time when said sorcerer makes that decision and when the spell comes into effect? Seriously?? I know what you mean. This is why I avoid certain types of gamers (which seems to be a majority in my immediate geographic area). They treat D&D, and its rules, more closely akin to M:TG. Very hardcore rules lawyer people, who don't really play the game, so much as read the errata and recite it back. Every time I hear one of the local gamers say "by RAW" and rationalize a passage like that, I feel the spirit of the game die a little more.
Father Dale 01-31-08, 08:20 PM	Please. From PHB p. 174 and the SRD: You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. As it is quite clear, the decision making occurs AT THE SAME TIME as when the spell comes into effect. That is, they occur simultaneously, per the Rules as Written. Thus, even permitting your example of Readying an action for when the sorcerer decides to center his spell effect, you are stuck with two options--that is, if you are sticking by the RAW. Either, a) You can take your readied action BEFORE the spell comes into effect, which means Mr. Sorcerer can then center his spell AFTER you take your readied action, or b) You can take your readied action AFTER he makes his decision, in which case the spell has already come into effect. Because the sorcerer makes his decisions "when the spell comes into effect." Nothing in the Special Initiative Action section discusses the possibility of readying an action to be triggered before one but after the other of two simultaneous events. Not only is there no support for this in the rules, it is logically absurd as well. The best you can point to is the example of "if she starts casting a spell." Anything further is adding your own interpretation to the rules.
Wih 01-31-08, 09:51 PM	No need to start getting uppity, Father Dale. I've been perfectly civil, there's no need to yell in your typing. Since you've actually quoted a passage that shows that you're correct, I'm content to say you're correct on your judgement of the rules, now that you actually have some backing from the rules itself, not just your assumptions on how time works in the 3rd edition initiative system. Rood_Inverse - DnD is a game of heroic Fantasy. There are people who are breaking the rules of physics by creating and destroying mass, and people attacking twenty people in less than six seconds. I think someone barely diving out of the range of a magic spell that would cause him to fall asleep just before it took effect fits in with heroic fantasy quite well. There's a difference between RAW and RAI. The RAI with readied actions is that they completely interrupt the action they're held for. I was running off that, and found RAW that I found to back up my claim. If you're going to rally against rules lawyers who want to stop our fun in gaming by saying that we can't do things that are cool and fun, then look elsewhere. Plus, this forum is DM Rules Counselling. This forum is all about the rules - so don't complain about there appearance of the RAW here.
Rood_Inverse 02-01-08, 12:04 AM	I think someone barely diving out of the range of a magic spell that would cause him to fall asleep just before it took effect fits in with heroic fantasy quite well. See, I always understood that part to be covered in the Saving Throws. RAW doesn't have to be dissected and broken down like that. I like to pretend I shave with Occam's Razor. When you have to break down the rules, cite and shepardize a single narrowly-construed instance to prove your point... You either have too many and too complex rules, or you're trying to hard to see what's not there. I am... Fortunate enough to have had Father Dale come up with the razor ruling that backed up my above philosophy (in convenient 20-20, and tonge planted firmly in cheek chagrinned hindsight).
pedro2112 02-01-08, 02:15 PM	shepardize. Where is the trademark symbol? ;)
Father Dale 02-01-08, 04:34 PM	heh.... When did Westlaw start publishing DnD reporters? lol 1 W.o.T.C. 225, 1 P.H.B. 2d 15 (2007) should we start using Bluebook citation rules too? :rofl: