Snatch Arrow vs. Returning Weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Snatch Arrow vs. Returning Weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dwarven_Jihad
07-17-07, 12:36 PM One of my players is a Master Thrower (among other things), and it's time to spring a new twist on him--an enemy that can use Snatch Arrow.

The character's favorite weapon has the Returning property. To forestall the inevitable argument I see arising with this player: will Snatch Arrow trump the ability of the weapon to Return on its own?

According to the feat, the snatcher has the opportunity to immediately throw the weapon back at the original thrower, perhaps I'll do that and argue that the weapon's Returning property now resets to the *new* thrower (the snatcher) and the issue is moot? :)
Androcus Divinicus
07-17-07, 12:56 PM I would say that Snatch Arrow does trump Returning. For a few reasons: 1) The Returning weapon doesn't fly back to the thrower until just before the thrower's next turn. Consequently, it'd be reasonable to assume that someone who caught it would be able to throw it back before that point in time. 2) The relevant spell on the Returning ability is Telekinesis. I would rule that the effect on a Returning weapon is most akin to the spell's "sustained force" effect, and that allows a creature to make a save to prevent an object it possesses (like your Master Thrower's weapon) from being effected. I don't think it's out of line with the magical weapon property to allow someone who can catch the thrown weapon to hold on to it, negating the returning. In fact, I also think that whoever "catches" the weapon (whether that happens as a result of the normal function of the Returning property, or as a result of snatch arrow) is its weilder.

Regards,
Justin.
High Octane
07-17-07, 01:34 PM Yeah it would trump it because as soon as it was caught, it would become theirs.

Sounds cool to pull something like this, but be careful to not create characters whose singular purpoose is to destroy a specific PC.
Sildatorak
07-17-07, 01:45 PM I would probably rule that the guy who snatched it gets to keep it. If you feel that is too harsh, you may just want to make it work like a disarm attempt that doesn't take an action or provoke an attack of opportunity.
Dwarven_Jihad
07-17-07, 03:18 PM Thanks for the advice, all :)

Sounds cool to pull something like this, but be careful to not create characters whose singular purpoose is to destroy a specific PC.

I know :) The party's tricks work most of the time, but once in a while there's a monster or NPC that more or less completely negates a party member.

It would be death if they were alone, but since they're in a group it instead shakes things up a bit to keep the same-old, same-old from getting stale. Also, in this case the NPC flies, so it's just sensible for him to have some kind of feat/ability/magic item to deal with ranged attacks.

And the thrower will get his grubby little mitts back on his precious somehow...
Millennium
07-17-07, 03:31 PM Returning

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.
I'd rule that if someone catches a returning weapon and keeps it in hand or well-secured until the thrower's next turn, they've prevented it from returning. This does not require any kind of check; the weapon recognizes that it's in hand and so it doesn't try to return. However, if the catcher simply discards the weapon (perhaps to pick up something else) or doesn't keep it secured, then it returns as normal.

You could use this to scare the PC as the opponent catches the dagger, points it briefly at him and smirks, then (not knowing what it is) casually tosses it away behind him. But just before the player's next turn, the dagger flies back just like it usually does.
Myzery78
07-17-07, 05:09 PM Based on the text from the SRD I dont see anything that prevents it from returning to the player. I would see it play out as follows:

Player's Turn:
Player throws it at NPC
NPC catches it and throws it at player
Returns to NPC

NPC's Turn:
Stuff
Returns to PC
Shmeff
07-18-07, 01:31 AM This is complete instinct, but what about opposed charisma checks to see who wrestles control of the item?
Voran
07-18-07, 07:39 AM Granted, this works best in 'normal heroic' settings rather than epic or above. The idea that you can catch Thor's hammer and play keep away from him, is a little off.
foxtail
07-18-07, 09:09 AM Or call for an opposed Strength check; if you assume the weapon returns at the same velocity it was thrown (which has no basis in the RAW, mind you), it might be yanked out of the catcher's hand.
eamon
07-18-07, 10:28 AM As soon as you (whether PC or NPC) have the returning weapon in hand, it's yours. I wouldn't give any extra benefit to the poor screwed PC. It's just too complex.
Saragon42
07-18-07, 03:10 PM Unfortunately, there's two good solutions to this problem, and which one applies depends on whether or not you're using psionics.

This ability can be imbedded only in weapons that can be thrown. A teleporting weapon returns through the Astral Plane to the creature that threw it. It teleports into the throwing creature’s empty hand in the round following the round when it was thrown, just before that creature’s turn. It is therefore ready to use again on that turn.

Although the text is nearly identical to returning, in a game with psionics I'd allow the teleporting weapon to return to the thrower's hand even if caught by someone else. A returning weapon would be held by the catcher (though I might add some flavor description suggesting that it jerks towards the thrower before the catcher gets a firmer grip on the weapon and throws it back at the original owner, to emphasize that he stopped it from returning and now controls it.)

However, both teleporting and returning use the term "thrower" rather than "owner". If you aren't differentiating between these two mods, by RAW the weapon returns to the thrower's hand. Ultimately, that means it comes down to a houserule on what you want caught returning weapons to do for the rest of the game.
High Octane
07-19-07, 01:29 PM Granted, this works best in 'normal heroic' settings rather than epic or above. The idea that you can catch Thor's hammer and play keep away from him, is a little off.

I just got an image in my head of Loki and Surtur playing keep away with Thor's hammer and then Thor crying to Odin "Daaaaaaad Loki won't give my hammer back!" and then Odin giving Loki a time-out.

Unfortunately, Odin's time-out's consist of being tied to stalagmites in a cave and having venom dripped into your wounds while you think about what you did.
JellyPooga
07-19-07, 07:39 PM Just a thought but...

...What if the original thrower was also a Whisperknife (RotW) and had the ability that lets them throw a Returning weapon twice in one round? Does the Snatch Arrows guy get caught off guard by the speed of the weapon returning? Does it make any difference at all?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dwarven_Jihad 07-17-07, 12:36 PM	One of my players is a Master Thrower (among other things), and it's time to spring a new twist on him--an enemy that can use Snatch Arrow. The character's favorite weapon has the Returning property. To forestall the inevitable argument I see arising with this player: will Snatch Arrow trump the ability of the weapon to Return on its own? According to the feat, the snatcher has the opportunity to immediately throw the weapon back at the original thrower, perhaps I'll do that and argue that the weapon's Returning property now resets to the new thrower (the snatcher) and the issue is moot? :)
Androcus Divinicus 07-17-07, 12:56 PM	I would say that Snatch Arrow does trump Returning. For a few reasons: 1) The Returning weapon doesn't fly back to the thrower until just before the thrower's next turn. Consequently, it'd be reasonable to assume that someone who caught it would be able to throw it back before that point in time. 2) The relevant spell on the Returning ability is Telekinesis. I would rule that the effect on a Returning weapon is most akin to the spell's "sustained force" effect, and that allows a creature to make a save to prevent an object it possesses (like your Master Thrower's weapon) from being effected. I don't think it's out of line with the magical weapon property to allow someone who can catch the thrown weapon to hold on to it, negating the returning. In fact, I also think that whoever "catches" the weapon (whether that happens as a result of the normal function of the Returning property, or as a result of snatch arrow) is its weilder. Regards, Justin.
High Octane 07-17-07, 01:34 PM	Yeah it would trump it because as soon as it was caught, it would become theirs. Sounds cool to pull something like this, but be careful to not create characters whose singular purpoose is to destroy a specific PC.
Sildatorak 07-17-07, 01:45 PM	I would probably rule that the guy who snatched it gets to keep it. If you feel that is too harsh, you may just want to make it work like a disarm attempt that doesn't take an action or provoke an attack of opportunity.
Dwarven_Jihad 07-17-07, 03:18 PM	Thanks for the advice, all :) Sounds cool to pull something like this, but be careful to not create characters whose singular purpoose is to destroy a specific PC. I know :) The party's tricks work most of the time, but once in a while there's a monster or NPC that more or less completely negates a party member. It would be death if they were alone, but since they're in a group it instead shakes things up a bit to keep the same-old, same-old from getting stale. Also, in this case the NPC flies, so it's just sensible for him to have some kind of feat/ability/magic item to deal with ranged attacks. And the thrower will get his grubby little mitts back on his precious somehow...
Millennium 07-17-07, 03:31 PM	Returning This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown. I'd rule that if someone catches a returning weapon and keeps it in hand or well-secured until the thrower's next turn, they've prevented it from returning. This does not require any kind of check; the weapon recognizes that it's in hand and so it doesn't try to return. However, if the catcher simply discards the weapon (perhaps to pick up something else) or doesn't keep it secured, then it returns as normal. You could use this to scare the PC as the opponent catches the dagger, points it briefly at him and smirks, then (not knowing what it is) casually tosses it away behind him. But just before the player's next turn, the dagger flies back just like it usually does.
Myzery78 07-17-07, 05:09 PM	Based on the text from the SRD I dont see anything that prevents it from returning to the player. I would see it play out as follows: Player's Turn: Player throws it at NPC NPC catches it and throws it at player Returns to NPC NPC's Turn: Stuff Returns to PC
Shmeff 07-18-07, 01:31 AM	This is complete instinct, but what about opposed charisma checks to see who wrestles control of the item?
Voran 07-18-07, 07:39 AM	Granted, this works best in 'normal heroic' settings rather than epic or above. The idea that you can catch Thor's hammer and play keep away from him, is a little off.
foxtail 07-18-07, 09:09 AM	Or call for an opposed Strength check; if you assume the weapon returns at the same velocity it was thrown (which has no basis in the RAW, mind you), it might be yanked out of the catcher's hand.
eamon 07-18-07, 10:28 AM	As soon as you (whether PC or NPC) have the returning weapon in hand, it's yours. I wouldn't give any extra benefit to the poor screwed PC. It's just too complex.
Saragon42 07-18-07, 03:10 PM	Unfortunately, there's two good solutions to this problem, and which one applies depends on whether or not you're using psionics. This ability can be imbedded only in weapons that can be thrown. A teleporting weapon returns through the Astral Plane to the creature that threw it. It teleports into the throwing creature’s empty hand in the round following the round when it was thrown, just before that creature’s turn. It is therefore ready to use again on that turn. Although the text is nearly identical to returning, in a game with psionics I'd allow the teleporting weapon to return to the thrower's hand even if caught by someone else. A returning weapon would be held by the catcher (though I might add some flavor description suggesting that it jerks towards the thrower before the catcher gets a firmer grip on the weapon and throws it back at the original owner, to emphasize that he stopped it from returning and now controls it.) However, both teleporting and returning use the term "thrower" rather than "owner". If you aren't differentiating between these two mods, by RAW the weapon returns to the thrower's hand. Ultimately, that means it comes down to a houserule on what you want caught returning weapons to do for the rest of the game.
High Octane 07-19-07, 01:29 PM	Granted, this works best in 'normal heroic' settings rather than epic or above. The idea that you can catch Thor's hammer and play keep away from him, is a little off. I just got an image in my head of Loki and Surtur playing keep away with Thor's hammer and then Thor crying to Odin "Daaaaaaad Loki won't give my hammer back!" and then Odin giving Loki a time-out. Unfortunately, Odin's time-out's consist of being tied to stalagmites in a cave and having venom dripped into your wounds while you think about what you did.
JellyPooga 07-19-07, 07:39 PM	Just a thought but... ...What if the original thrower was also a Whisperknife (RotW) and had the ability that lets them throw a Returning weapon twice in one round? Does the Snatch Arrows guy get caught off guard by the speed of the weapon returning? Does it make any difference at all?