Sneak attack and thrown weapons. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sneak attack and thrown weapons. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lardalish
04-02-07, 07:53 PM Ok, couple questions:

1) Im a rogue, I have gotten within 30 feet of a troll, he has not detected me yet. If I have 7/2 as my BAB, I can make two throws I would assume. So I get sneak attack on the first throw, do I get it on the second throw?

2) Same basic setup, only the troll is engaged in combat with my partners. Do I still get the sneak attack? I dont think he is technically denied his Dex bonus, and its not a suprize round, but I also havent entered combat with the troll so would it be my suprize round?

2a) If its a splash weapon, I know I risk hitting my teammates with some splash, but they would not take the sneak attack damage would they?
Myzery78
04-02-07, 08:43 PM 1. No, you would get only a surprise round so only 1 standard action.

2. I would say yes if it is does not see you, though keep in mind that would mean you'd need cover or concealment to be hiding.

3. My understanding of these kinds of weapons is that you target the square and not the creature thus no SA. If you targetted the actual creature and rolled against its AC I suppose you would get SA, though splash effects would cause no SA as they arent attacks.
Marcus Majarra
04-02-07, 08:56 PM 1) The rogue acts on the surprise round and is entitled a standard action. If the troll doesn't have uncanny dodge (or any ability that allows it to retain its Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed or that prevents it from becoming flat-footed in the first place), the rogue's attack during the surprise round will be a sneak attack. After that, if the rogue gets to act before the troll does in a normal round, he could perform a full attack with every attack counting as a sneak attack.

2) The troll being in combat with your allies entails no vulnerability to ranged sneak attacks (unless you can flank at range). So unless the rogue can find a way to deny the troll its Dex bonus to AC against his ranged attacks (such as through invisibility), no attack will be a sneak attack. The rogue could attempt to snipe the troll (attacking while hiding and hiding again), but doing this entails some heavy penalties on the Hide check and typically allow for only one attack per round.

3) Splash damage will never deal sneak attack damage. For an attack to qualify as a sneak attack, you need to attack your target. Splash damage is collateral damage, not targetted.
runestar
04-03-07, 06:46 AM 2a) If its a splash weapon, I know I risk hitting my teammates with some splash, but they would not take the sneak attack damage would they?
The splash damage has no attack roll involved, so it is technically not an attack in the mechanical sense. Thus, sneak attack damage will not apply.:)
meabolex
04-03-07, 09:17 AM 1) Im a rogue, I have gotten within 30 feet of a troll, he has not detected me yet. If I have 7/2 as my BAB, I can make two throws I would assume. So I get sneak attack on the first throw, do I get it on the second throw?

2) Same basic setup, only the troll is engaged in combat with my partners. Do I still get the sneak attack? I dont think he is technically denied his Dex bonus, and its not a suprize round, but I also havent entered combat with the troll so would it be my suprize round?

I assume that if you're within 30 ft. of a troll and not detected, that means you have passed move silently and hide checks. To have passed a hide check, you must have concealment or cover. Since trolls have darkvision and you didn't specify any particular circumstances, I assume you must have cover.

If you've successfully hidden and the troll is visually unaware of your presence, regardless of who is in combat with who, your first attack on the troll is a sneak attack (assuming the sneak attack can be made given the restrictions on sneak attack).

From the 3.5 FAQ
If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
Yes.
The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage.

I assume you started combat aware like your teammates - except the troll is unaware of your position. Rather than act in a surprise round, you can possibly take no actions and attack later. Once you attack from a position where you've successfully hidden, you're no longer hiding unless you choose the sniping option. So assuming you take the full attack action while hidden after the surprise round, your first attack is a sneak attack (with your foe being considered flat-footed) and the second attack is treated normally. The sage is unclear as to whether you get the +2 bonus to hit on the initial attack as an invisible attacker vs. a sighted creature, but it makes sense to have it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lardalish 04-02-07, 07:53 PM	Ok, couple questions: 1) Im a rogue, I have gotten within 30 feet of a troll, he has not detected me yet. If I have 7/2 as my BAB, I can make two throws I would assume. So I get sneak attack on the first throw, do I get it on the second throw? 2) Same basic setup, only the troll is engaged in combat with my partners. Do I still get the sneak attack? I dont think he is technically denied his Dex bonus, and its not a suprize round, but I also havent entered combat with the troll so would it be my suprize round? 2a) If its a splash weapon, I know I risk hitting my teammates with some splash, but they would not take the sneak attack damage would they?
Myzery78 04-02-07, 08:43 PM	1. No, you would get only a surprise round so only 1 standard action. 2. I would say yes if it is does not see you, though keep in mind that would mean you'd need cover or concealment to be hiding. 3. My understanding of these kinds of weapons is that you target the square and not the creature thus no SA. If you targetted the actual creature and rolled against its AC I suppose you would get SA, though splash effects would cause no SA as they arent attacks.
Marcus Majarra 04-02-07, 08:56 PM	1) The rogue acts on the surprise round and is entitled a standard action. If the troll doesn't have uncanny dodge (or any ability that allows it to retain its Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed or that prevents it from becoming flat-footed in the first place), the rogue's attack during the surprise round will be a sneak attack. After that, if the rogue gets to act before the troll does in a normal round, he could perform a full attack with every attack counting as a sneak attack. 2) The troll being in combat with your allies entails no vulnerability to ranged sneak attacks (unless you can flank at range). So unless the rogue can find a way to deny the troll its Dex bonus to AC against his ranged attacks (such as through invisibility), no attack will be a sneak attack. The rogue could attempt to snipe the troll (attacking while hiding and hiding again), but doing this entails some heavy penalties on the Hide check and typically allow for only one attack per round. 3) Splash damage will never deal sneak attack damage. For an attack to qualify as a sneak attack, you need to attack your target. Splash damage is collateral damage, not targetted.
runestar 04-03-07, 06:46 AM	2a) If its a splash weapon, I know I risk hitting my teammates with some splash, but they would not take the sneak attack damage would they? The splash damage has no attack roll involved, so it is technically not an attack in the mechanical sense. Thus, sneak attack damage will not apply.:)
meabolex 04-03-07, 09:17 AM	1) Im a rogue, I have gotten within 30 feet of a troll, he has not detected me yet. If I have 7/2 as my BAB, I can make two throws I would assume. So I get sneak attack on the first throw, do I get it on the second throw? 2) Same basic setup, only the troll is engaged in combat with my partners. Do I still get the sneak attack? I dont think he is technically denied his Dex bonus, and its not a suprize round, but I also havent entered combat with the troll so would it be my suprize round? I assume that if you're within 30 ft. of a troll and not detected, that means you have passed move silently and hide checks. To have passed a hide check, you must have concealment or cover. Since trolls have darkvision and you didn't specify any particular circumstances, I assume you must have cover. If you've successfully hidden and the troll is visually unaware of your presence, regardless of who is in combat with who, your first attack on the troll is a sneak attack (assuming the sneak attack can be made given the restrictions on sneak attack). From the 3.5 FAQ If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage? Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage. I assume you started combat aware like your teammates - except the troll is unaware of your position. Rather than act in a surprise round, you can possibly take no actions and attack later. Once you attack from a position where you've successfully hidden, you're no longer hiding unless you choose the sniping option. So assuming you take the full attack action while hidden after the surprise round, your first attack is a sneak attack (with your foe being considered flat-footed) and the second attack is treated normally. The sage is unclear as to whether you get the +2 bonus to hit on the initial attack as an invisible attacker vs. a sighted creature, but it makes sense to have it.