Sneak Attack with Rays [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sneak Attack with Rays [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thunderjp
01-15-08, 02:34 PM I know there is a prestige class specifically allowing some sneak attack damage to be applied to ray spells, but is this 'extra damage'? In other words, can a rogue that has access to ray spells normally do his sneak attack damage with the ray?
Avatar of Kokusho
01-15-08, 02:36 PM The class you're thinking of is probably Spellwarped Sniper (Complete Scoundrel). Yes, you can sneak attack with a ray within 30 feet, and what's more, the sneak attack damage is whatever damage type the ray spell deals.
ardentpause
01-15-08, 02:52 PM Actually, you can apply sneak attack damage on any attack that requires an attack roll (and meets SA criteria) with or without the prestige class.

Any rogue can shell out 375gp for a wand of "Ray of Frost", and make sneak attacks against AC 10 (Flatfooted ignores Dex, and Touch Attacks ignore Armor). As mentioned, it takes on the same damage type as the spell.

You might not want to tell your players.

-ArdentPause
Stolide
01-15-08, 02:56 PM Glad I saw this... (I'm not a dm)
thunderjp
01-15-08, 03:02 PM Actually, you can apply sneak attack damage on any attack that requires an attack roll (and meets SA criteria) with or without the prestige class.

Any rogue can shell out 375gp for a wand of "Ray of Frost", and make sneak attacks against AC 10 (Flatfooted ignores Dex, and Touch Attacks ignore Armor). As mentioned, it takes on the same damage type as the spell.

You might not want to tell your players.

-ArdentPause

Thanks all, I was afraid this was the case.
My player is indeed aiming for the Spellwarped Sniper class and has just picked up a level of rogue for the pre-requisite sneak attack to gain access to the class.
WackyOne
01-15-08, 03:12 PM A rogue can apply his sneak attack to a spell - it's a good "tactical option", but not the be-all end-all of sneak attacking.
When sneak attacking with a spell, even if the spell requires multiple attack rolls (eg. high level schorcing ray, releasing 3 rays), you add your sneak damage to only one of them.
In the same conditions a full attack with a bow, or using the Greater Manyshot feat, would have allowed multiple attacks with the bonus damage.

By the way, if your player is into sneak attacking, and not as much into skills, he could have gone with spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat, for light armor use and decent (or mostly useless, depending on how you read it) spellstealing.
thunderjp
01-15-08, 03:27 PM By the way, if your player is into sneak attacking, and not as much into skills, he could have gone with spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat, for light armor use and decent (or mostly useless, depending on how you read it) spellstealing.

He has always played a wizard and has typically been a boring fireball+lightning bolt sorta player. When we launched our new campaign, I encouraged him to try something different. He took a look at Ray spells and fell in love. I've sorta created a monster, but I'm glad he's having fun with it!

He one-shot one of my minor bosses with a scorching ray critical on one of the adventures so far! We're just launching in to Red Hand of Doom now, we'll see how it goes :)
Sinis
01-15-08, 03:35 PM Actually, you can apply sneak attack damage on any attack that requires an attack roll (and meets SA criteria) with or without the prestige class.

Is this explicit in the rules anywhere? I'm just curious, and not disputing it.
mvincent
01-15-08, 04:18 PM Is this explicit in the rules anywhere? I'm just curious, and not disputing it.From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) (if desired):
"Spells as Sneak Attacks
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack)."

The core rules aren't as clear about this as they should be, however I believe the Spell Compendium clarifies this as well.
sblaxman
01-15-08, 04:19 PM Is it a "rule", or is it an option? A lot of the 'rules' you see on the boards are really dm options that are brought up in the dmguide and not the default rules
mvincent
01-15-08, 05:13 PM Is it a "rule", or is it an option?It's a rule. (Of course, that still doesn't mean a DM has to use it)
StevenO
01-15-08, 07:04 PM Is it a "rule", or is it an option? A lot of the 'rules' you see on the boards are really dm options that are brought up in the dmguide and not the default rules
Bear in mind that ALL the rules are really optional. After that applying sneak attack damage against eligable targets doesn't care what method is actually used to deliver the needed attack roll.
sblaxman
01-15-08, 07:21 PM What I meant was it a rule that you can do sneak/critical damage w/ touch attack spells

I wasn't sure (I play 2E, I've read 3 but I don't have the books memorized).... There are some examples of the rules, then followed by an optional rule or modifier, that's why I was asking. (I think they use the term "variant" in 3.5), same idea..

example.. page 22 of the dmg, where they offer a variant for initiative... wasn't sure if it was like that or the default rule
Jackmojo
01-16-08, 03:02 PM What I meant was it a rule that you can do sneak/critical damage w/ touch attack spells

I looked on the SRD for where it specifies it, but I decided it was easier to find in the FAQ.

3.5 faq (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq)
Does a rogue apply sneak attack damage when
throwing alchemist fire or casting a spell such as acid
splash?
Yes. The bonus damage from sneak attack, skirmish, or
sudden strike applies to any attack that requires an attack roll,
even touch attacks.

Jack
sblaxman
01-16-08, 06:34 PM Righty-o, thanks, assuming the DMG/PHB says the same, that answers my question :)
Tedronai
01-17-08, 12:21 AM Righty-o, thanks, assuming the DMG/PHB says the same, that answers my question :)

The PHB/DMG doesn't actually address the subject dircetly at all (however, the language used is USUALLY nonspecific to the source of the attack). The Complete Arcane, however, quite directly clarifies the situation (in that Sneack Attacks and Critical Hits function perfectly well with spells that require attack rolls and deal damage).
Andrew
01-17-08, 12:26 AM While it is perfectly fine to sneak attack with a ray spell, you still have to meet the other criteria for sneak attack, and at range, that usually involves catching your opponent flat-footed or otherwise denying them their dexterity bonus (such as through invisibility).
sblaxman
01-17-08, 11:35 AM but the moment you start casting (ignoring instant cast spells), dont you loose invis?
mvincent
01-17-08, 12:07 PM but the moment you start casting (ignoring instant cast spells), dont you loose invis?Assuming you are using the standard Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) spell:
"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature"

... that means that the target will still be flat-footed on your initial attack.

(indeed, you could even remain invisible after casting a ray spell if you do not attack a creature with it).
Andrew
01-17-08, 12:07 PM For normal invisibility, you'd lose it after the one attack. Just casting spells doesn't break invisibility unless they affect a creature. You can stand around throwing fireballs at empty space just fine while invisible. So, the invisibility only should end after the attack, just like it would with any other weapon. Sure, they can hear where you are, but hearing your opponent is different that dealing with your opponent's total concealment.

Of course, with greater invisibility you've got no worries at all.
sblaxman
01-18-08, 01:13 PM Of course, I wasn't thinking for some reason. Eh, that's a rule I'll still leave out (crits/sneak attack for spells just don't work for me). Of course, I still use backstab for thieves (not steak attack for rogues), so it's moot, hehe.
mvincent
01-18-08, 01:15 PM steak attack for roguesHungry rogues. Halfling rogues.
sblaxman
01-19-08, 01:19 AM Woops, hungry darksun halfling rogues
eamon
01-19-08, 09:30 AM Note also that sneak attack on an ability damage / energy drain effect doesn't result in more ability damage / energy drain, but in negative energy (hitpoint) damage.
Voran
01-20-08, 06:54 AM It can boggle the mind though. Especially when you consider things like various Elemental resistance. If I've got an energy resistance of say 20 (whatever element) and you hit me with wand of ray of (whatever) that does 1d3 pts of damage, adding sneak attack damage to that seems bizarre. Whether you hit me in the face, or the crotch or up the patootie shouldn't matter because the base damage is so much lower than my resistance.

For that matter I still feel that for things like DR, if your base damage doesn't surpass the DR of the creature, you shouldn't get Sneak Attack damage either. Naturally, opinions differ.
The_Shaman
01-20-08, 11:39 AM Note also that sneak attack on an ability damage / energy drain effect doesn't result in more ability damage / energy drain, but in negative energy (hitpoint) damage.

Hmm, split enervation + sneak attack... tasty, even if you apply SA only once.
mvincent
01-20-08, 05:57 PM For that matter I still feel that for things like DR, if your base damage doesn't surpass the DR of the creature, you shouldn't get Sneak Attack damage either. Naturally, opinions differ.I understand the sentiment, and I think that they did that mainly for balance reasons (otherwise rogues would be useless in a lot more circumstances). However, to rationalize it: most DR creatures should still have vulnerable spots (i.e. spots that have less covering).

Even if it the protection is perfectly distributed (like a forcefield), a rogue could still probably know how to focus his attack.

In the case of energy damage, this might mean keeping the effect longer on a pinpointed (sensitive) location. Example: the shocking grasp spell may not even be felt by a resistant creature, but it would make sense for the creature to get jolt if the shocking gasp was shoved all up into its cool-aid.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thunderjp 01-15-08, 02:34 PM	I know there is a prestige class specifically allowing some sneak attack damage to be applied to ray spells, but is this 'extra damage'? In other words, can a rogue that has access to ray spells normally do his sneak attack damage with the ray?
Avatar of Kokusho 01-15-08, 02:36 PM	The class you're thinking of is probably Spellwarped Sniper (Complete Scoundrel). Yes, you can sneak attack with a ray within 30 feet, and what's more, the sneak attack damage is whatever damage type the ray spell deals.
ardentpause 01-15-08, 02:52 PM	Actually, you can apply sneak attack damage on any attack that requires an attack roll (and meets SA criteria) with or without the prestige class. Any rogue can shell out 375gp for a wand of "Ray of Frost", and make sneak attacks against AC 10 (Flatfooted ignores Dex, and Touch Attacks ignore Armor). As mentioned, it takes on the same damage type as the spell. You might not want to tell your players. -ArdentPause
Stolide 01-15-08, 02:56 PM	Glad I saw this... (I'm not a dm)
thunderjp 01-15-08, 03:02 PM	Actually, you can apply sneak attack damage on any attack that requires an attack roll (and meets SA criteria) with or without the prestige class. Any rogue can shell out 375gp for a wand of "Ray of Frost", and make sneak attacks against AC 10 (Flatfooted ignores Dex, and Touch Attacks ignore Armor). As mentioned, it takes on the same damage type as the spell. You might not want to tell your players. -ArdentPause Thanks all, I was afraid this was the case. My player is indeed aiming for the Spellwarped Sniper class and has just picked up a level of rogue for the pre-requisite sneak attack to gain access to the class.
WackyOne 01-15-08, 03:12 PM	A rogue can apply his sneak attack to a spell - it's a good "tactical option", but not the be-all end-all of sneak attacking. When sneak attacking with a spell, even if the spell requires multiple attack rolls (eg. high level schorcing ray, releasing 3 rays), you add your sneak damage to only one of them. In the same conditions a full attack with a bow, or using the Greater Manyshot feat, would have allowed multiple attacks with the bonus damage. By the way, if your player is into sneak attacking, and not as much into skills, he could have gone with spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat, for light armor use and decent (or mostly useless, depending on how you read it) spellstealing.
thunderjp 01-15-08, 03:27 PM	By the way, if your player is into sneak attacking, and not as much into skills, he could have gone with spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat, for light armor use and decent (or mostly useless, depending on how you read it) spellstealing. He has always played a wizard and has typically been a boring fireball+lightning bolt sorta player. When we launched our new campaign, I encouraged him to try something different. He took a look at Ray spells and fell in love. I've sorta created a monster, but I'm glad he's having fun with it! He one-shot one of my minor bosses with a scorching ray critical on one of the adventures so far! We're just launching in to Red Hand of Doom now, we'll see how it goes :)
Sinis 01-15-08, 03:35 PM	Actually, you can apply sneak attack damage on any attack that requires an attack roll (and meets SA criteria) with or without the prestige class. Is this explicit in the rules anywhere? I'm just curious, and not disputing it.
mvincent 01-15-08, 04:18 PM	Is this explicit in the rules anywhere? I'm just curious, and not disputing it.From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) (if desired): "Spells as Sneak Attacks Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell. Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack)." The core rules aren't as clear about this as they should be, however I believe the Spell Compendium clarifies this as well.
sblaxman 01-15-08, 04:19 PM	Is it a "rule", or is it an option? A lot of the 'rules' you see on the boards are really dm options that are brought up in the dmguide and not the default rules
mvincent 01-15-08, 05:13 PM	Is it a "rule", or is it an option?It's a rule. (Of course, that still doesn't mean a DM has to use it)
StevenO 01-15-08, 07:04 PM	Is it a "rule", or is it an option? A lot of the 'rules' you see on the boards are really dm options that are brought up in the dmguide and not the default rules Bear in mind that ALL the rules are really optional. After that applying sneak attack damage against eligable targets doesn't care what method is actually used to deliver the needed attack roll.
sblaxman 01-15-08, 07:21 PM	What I meant was it a rule that you can do sneak/critical damage w/ touch attack spells I wasn't sure (I play 2E, I've read 3 but I don't have the books memorized).... There are some examples of the rules, then followed by an optional rule or modifier, that's why I was asking. (I think they use the term "variant" in 3.5), same idea.. example.. page 22 of the dmg, where they offer a variant for initiative... wasn't sure if it was like that or the default rule
Jackmojo 01-16-08, 03:02 PM	What I meant was it a rule that you can do sneak/critical damage w/ touch attack spells I looked on the SRD for where it specifies it, but I decided it was easier to find in the FAQ. 3.5 faq (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq) Does a rogue apply sneak attack damage when throwing alchemist fire or casting a spell such as acid splash? Yes. The bonus damage from sneak attack, skirmish, or sudden strike applies to any attack that requires an attack roll, even touch attacks. Jack
sblaxman 01-16-08, 06:34 PM	Righty-o, thanks, assuming the DMG/PHB says the same, that answers my question :)
Tedronai 01-17-08, 12:21 AM	Righty-o, thanks, assuming the DMG/PHB says the same, that answers my question :) The PHB/DMG doesn't actually address the subject dircetly at all (however, the language used is USUALLY nonspecific to the source of the attack). The Complete Arcane, however, quite directly clarifies the situation (in that Sneack Attacks and Critical Hits function perfectly well with spells that require attack rolls and deal damage).
Andrew 01-17-08, 12:26 AM	While it is perfectly fine to sneak attack with a ray spell, you still have to meet the other criteria for sneak attack, and at range, that usually involves catching your opponent flat-footed or otherwise denying them their dexterity bonus (such as through invisibility).
sblaxman 01-17-08, 11:35 AM	but the moment you start casting (ignoring instant cast spells), dont you loose invis?
mvincent 01-17-08, 12:07 PM	but the moment you start casting (ignoring instant cast spells), dont you loose invis?Assuming you are using the standard Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) spell: "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature" ... that means that the target will still be flat-footed on your initial attack. (indeed, you could even remain invisible after casting a ray spell if you do not attack a creature with it).
Andrew 01-17-08, 12:07 PM	For normal invisibility, you'd lose it after the one attack. Just casting spells doesn't break invisibility unless they affect a creature. You can stand around throwing fireballs at empty space just fine while invisible. So, the invisibility only should end after the attack, just like it would with any other weapon. Sure, they can hear where you are, but hearing your opponent is different that dealing with your opponent's total concealment. Of course, with greater invisibility you've got no worries at all.
sblaxman 01-18-08, 01:13 PM	Of course, I wasn't thinking for some reason. Eh, that's a rule I'll still leave out (crits/sneak attack for spells just don't work for me). Of course, I still use backstab for thieves (not steak attack for rogues), so it's moot, hehe.
mvincent 01-18-08, 01:15 PM	steak attack for roguesHungry rogues. Halfling rogues.
sblaxman 01-19-08, 01:19 AM	Woops, hungry darksun halfling rogues
eamon 01-19-08, 09:30 AM	Note also that sneak attack on an ability damage / energy drain effect doesn't result in more ability damage / energy drain, but in negative energy (hitpoint) damage.
Voran 01-20-08, 06:54 AM	It can boggle the mind though. Especially when you consider things like various Elemental resistance. If I've got an energy resistance of say 20 (whatever element) and you hit me with wand of ray of (whatever) that does 1d3 pts of damage, adding sneak attack damage to that seems bizarre. Whether you hit me in the face, or the crotch or up the patootie shouldn't matter because the base damage is so much lower than my resistance. For that matter I still feel that for things like DR, if your base damage doesn't surpass the DR of the creature, you shouldn't get Sneak Attack damage either. Naturally, opinions differ.
The_Shaman 01-20-08, 11:39 AM	Note also that sneak attack on an ability damage / energy drain effect doesn't result in more ability damage / energy drain, but in negative energy (hitpoint) damage. Hmm, split enervation + sneak attack... tasty, even if you apply SA only once.
mvincent 01-20-08, 05:57 PM	For that matter I still feel that for things like DR, if your base damage doesn't surpass the DR of the creature, you shouldn't get Sneak Attack damage either. Naturally, opinions differ.I understand the sentiment, and I think that they did that mainly for balance reasons (otherwise rogues would be useless in a lot more circumstances). However, to rationalize it: most DR creatures should still have vulnerable spots (i.e. spots that have less covering). Even if it the protection is perfectly distributed (like a forcefield), a rogue could still probably know how to focus his attack. In the case of energy damage, this might mean keeping the effect longer on a pinpointed (sensitive) location. Example: the shocking grasp spell may not even be felt by a resistant creature, but it would make sense for the creature to get jolt if the shocking gasp was shoved all up into its cool-aid.