Sneak attack-what type of damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sneak attack-what type of damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drag0nUL
03-20-07, 06:29 PM One of my friends is playing a rogue and chose the alternate class feature penetrating strike from Dungeonscape. And today we came across a somewhat weird problem:
We are fighting a vampire. Rogue flanks the vampire and hits. He deals 1d4+1 from his small rapier and 3d6 sneak attack(halved against the vampire). Since his weapon is magical but not silver he cant bypass the DR. So he rises the following question: how does the DR affect sneak attack? I got into a little dispute with my DM: he says sneak attack is physical damage and therefore should be affected by DR; I say it is untyped damage and therefore it should bypass any DR.
So I ask you: is there any official ruling addressing this issue? I haven't been able to find anything in RAW to support any of these opinions.
pookha
03-20-07, 06:39 PM Sneak attack damage is added in and counts as the type of damage done by the weapon. Not sure where this is stated in the RAW. In your example, the rogue does 1d4+1 +1/2(3d6) piercing damage. This is all added together for the purposes of overcoming DR.

If you sneak attack with a Ray of Frost, the sneak attack damage is considered cold damage, etc.
weasel0
03-20-07, 08:09 PM Does dungeonscape allow SA vs vampires?
I could swear that RAW, all undead are immune (by default anyway/barring spells and effects) to SA. Last I checked, vampires are undead. So the question is moot at this point. He is basically useless in this senario because he doesn't casue enough damge to overcome the DR. Though he does give bonus to hit to other people and he could still crit... no, again undead are immune.

DISCLAIMER: If the answer to my question is yes, dungeonscape allows for SA vs vampire/undead, ignore the rest of my ignorant reply.
Lord Nedd
03-20-07, 11:42 PM Does dungeonscape allow SA vs vampires?
I could swear that RAW, all undead are immune (by default anyway/barring spells and effects) to SA. Last I checked, vampires are undead. So the question is moot at this point. He is basically useless in this senario because he doesn't casue enough damge to overcome the DR. Though he does give bonus to hit to other people and he could still crit... no, again undead are immune.

DISCLAIMER: If the answer to my question is yes, dungeonscape allows for SA vs vampire/undead, ignore the rest of my ignorat reply.

There is a class substitution that allows you to do 1/2 of your SA damage to undead as normal bonus dice damage. It replaces the 1st Trap Sense class power of the rogue. It is also found in the section for players and DMs in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft called the Lightbringer Rogues. As they both give bonus dice damage, you wouldn't multiply the damage on the chance of a critical hit (on the off chance that you were able to crit them through a spell or what not...).

-LN
Someone
03-21-07, 12:50 AM If you are doing a sneak attack with a physical weapon (as compared to a spell), then yes, DR applies.

However, the extra damage you rolled with the sneak attack dice make it much more likely to still do damage anyway.
Frugal
03-21-07, 08:33 AM As has already been stated, it's not 1d4+1 rapier damage then 1/2(3d6) sneak attack, it's that when you sneak attack your rapier does 1d4+1/2(3d6)+1 damage (piercing in this case). It's bonus damage added to the attack's damage, not something different.
weasel0
03-21-07, 08:05 PM ah. well, thank you for the clarification Lord Nedd.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-22-07, 03:23 AM Keep in mind that it's the damage type(s) of the base weapon. If, for example, he was wielding a +1 flaming rapier, he could not choose to have the sneak attack damage be fire damage. It would still be piercing damage.
Lindwyrm
03-22-07, 09:34 AM Sneak attack with spells like enervate is interesting (before this comes up) as it will do d4 negative levels, and (sneak attack) of negative energy damage
_Jayne_Cobb_
03-22-07, 09:40 AM I got into a little dispute with my DM: he says sneak attack is physical damage and therefore should be affected by DR; I say it is untyped damage and therefore it should bypass any DR.

The SA damage is just additional damage dealh by your attack. Your DM is right.
mvincent
03-22-07, 01:14 PM Sneak attack damage is added in and counts as the type of damage done by the weapon. Not sure where this is stated in the RAW.From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a):
"Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack. For example, if you make a sneak attack with a sword (a slashing weapon), all the damage from the sneak attack is slashing damage"

From the 3.0 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a):
"A sneak attack provides bonus damage, not a special effect.
In a sneak attack, roll the bonus damage and apply that against
the DR. For example, a rogue who hits a foe that has DR 20/+2
with a nonmagic short sword for 6 points of damage doesn’t get
through the DR. If the same rogue sneak attacks for 25 points
of damage, 5 points get through DR.
If the same rogue struck the same foe with a poisoned short
sword for 6 points of damage, the foe would not be damaged,
and the poison would not take effect because the DR stops all
the damage. The same rogue sneak attacking the same foe with
a poisoned short sword for 25 points of damage would deal 5
points to the foe and the foe would then have to save against
the poison."
pookha
03-25-07, 07:34 PM I [I]knew [I] that I had read that before, but could not remember where. Is it not in one of the core rulebooks, or SRD? I searched my SRD and books and could not find it. Shame that it is only in rules of the game and the FAQ.
Marcus Majarra
03-26-07, 04:16 AM The thing is: rule revisions get done constantly. This clause on sneak attack damage is not in the SRD, simply because the designers hadn't anticipated this issue at the time the SRD was published. This is no different from the introduction of swift and immediate actions (which were released early enough after the publication of 3.5E), which are pretty mainstream for D&D now. You won't see them in the SRD, however.
Frugal
03-26-07, 08:54 AM The thing is: rule revisions get done constantly. This clause on sneak attack damage is not in the SRD, simply because the designers hadn't anticipated this issue at the time the SRD was published. This is no different from the introduction of swift and immediate actions (which were released early enough after the publication of 3.5E), which are pretty mainstream for D&D now. You won't see them in the SRD, however.

d20srd.org usually keeps pretty up to date with revisions. They include swift and immediate actions.
Marcus Majarra
03-26-07, 04:09 PM The Hypertext SRD is not a carbon-copy of the actual SRD. Swift and immediate actions are not part of the SRD.
Frugal
03-26-07, 04:29 PM The Hypertext SRD is not a carbon-copy of the actual SRD. Swift and immediate actions are not part of the SRD.

Yes, well aware of that fact (it's also significantly reorganised), I was just commenting that there is a version of the SRD available that does include handy info like that.
mvincent
03-26-07, 04:47 PM Swift and immediate actions are not part of the SRD.They are part of the D&D glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary) though. I think I get what you were saying though:
1) Supplements can introduce new rules
2) These new rules are still official (even if they different from the core rules, so long as this is noted).
3) The FAQ and RotG are effectively supplements.

I like your observation. Note though: I don't know if the sneak attack ruling was a 'revision' so much as a possible interpretation of the original rules (and thus a "clarification").
StoneStokes
03-26-07, 05:17 PM I think I have interpreted this alternative class feature differently than most of you. The benefit says, roughly, that you get half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage. Thus, shouldn't it be you get +1d6 sneak attack damage (instead of 3d6 x 50% damage)? When your sneak attack increases to +4d6, then your penetrating strike increases to +2d6. That is why this feature isn't available until 3rd level (and why it replaces trap sense), so that you have enough dice to actually have half of them.
meabolex
03-26-07, 06:08 PM I think I have interpreted this alternative class feature differently than most of you. The benefit says, roughly, that you get half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage. Thus, shouldn't it be you get +1d6 sneak attack damage (instead of 3d6 x 50% damage)? When your sneak attack increases to +4d6, then your penetrating strike increases to +2d6. That is why this feature isn't available until 3rd level (and why it replaces trap sense), so that you have enough dice to actually have half of them.

Kinda off-topic, but yeah, Kinda poorly worded.

Another way to read it is that you deal damage equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you have (so dealing 4d6 on a sneak attack would result in +2 damage vs immune to sneak attack mobs). The only drawback to half dice is odd-levels, but I believe both interpretations are fair. The loss of 1.75 average damage on odd sneak attack dice levels gets more meaningless as you progress.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drag0nUL 03-20-07, 06:29 PM	One of my friends is playing a rogue and chose the alternate class feature penetrating strike from Dungeonscape. And today we came across a somewhat weird problem: We are fighting a vampire. Rogue flanks the vampire and hits. He deals 1d4+1 from his small rapier and 3d6 sneak attack(halved against the vampire). Since his weapon is magical but not silver he cant bypass the DR. So he rises the following question: how does the DR affect sneak attack? I got into a little dispute with my DM: he says sneak attack is physical damage and therefore should be affected by DR; I say it is untyped damage and therefore it should bypass any DR. So I ask you: is there any official ruling addressing this issue? I haven't been able to find anything in RAW to support any of these opinions.
pookha 03-20-07, 06:39 PM	Sneak attack damage is added in and counts as the type of damage done by the weapon. Not sure where this is stated in the RAW. In your example, the rogue does 1d4+1 +1/2(3d6) piercing damage. This is all added together for the purposes of overcoming DR. If you sneak attack with a Ray of Frost, the sneak attack damage is considered cold damage, etc.
weasel0 03-20-07, 08:09 PM	Does dungeonscape allow SA vs vampires? I could swear that RAW, all undead are immune (by default anyway/barring spells and effects) to SA. Last I checked, vampires are undead. So the question is moot at this point. He is basically useless in this senario because he doesn't casue enough damge to overcome the DR. Though he does give bonus to hit to other people and he could still crit... no, again undead are immune. DISCLAIMER: If the answer to my question is yes, dungeonscape allows for SA vs vampire/undead, ignore the rest of my ignorant reply.
Lord Nedd 03-20-07, 11:42 PM	Does dungeonscape allow SA vs vampires? I could swear that RAW, all undead are immune (by default anyway/barring spells and effects) to SA. Last I checked, vampires are undead. So the question is moot at this point. He is basically useless in this senario because he doesn't casue enough damge to overcome the DR. Though he does give bonus to hit to other people and he could still crit... no, again undead are immune. DISCLAIMER: If the answer to my question is yes, dungeonscape allows for SA vs vampire/undead, ignore the rest of my ignorat reply. There is a class substitution that allows you to do 1/2 of your SA damage to undead as normal bonus dice damage. It replaces the 1st Trap Sense class power of the rogue. It is also found in the section for players and DMs in the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft called the Lightbringer Rogues. As they both give bonus dice damage, you wouldn't multiply the damage on the chance of a critical hit (on the off chance that you were able to crit them through a spell or what not...). -LN
Someone 03-21-07, 12:50 AM	If you are doing a sneak attack with a physical weapon (as compared to a spell), then yes, DR applies. However, the extra damage you rolled with the sneak attack dice make it much more likely to still do damage anyway.
Frugal 03-21-07, 08:33 AM	As has already been stated, it's not 1d4+1 rapier damage then 1/2(3d6) sneak attack, it's that when you sneak attack your rapier does 1d4+1/2(3d6)+1 damage (piercing in this case). It's bonus damage added to the attack's damage, not something different.
weasel0 03-21-07, 08:05 PM	ah. well, thank you for the clarification Lord Nedd.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-22-07, 03:23 AM	Keep in mind that it's the damage type(s) of the base weapon. If, for example, he was wielding a +1 flaming rapier, he could not choose to have the sneak attack damage be fire damage. It would still be piercing damage.
Lindwyrm 03-22-07, 09:34 AM	Sneak attack with spells like enervate is interesting (before this comes up) as it will do d4 negative levels, and (sneak attack) of negative energy damage
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-22-07, 09:40 AM	I got into a little dispute with my DM: he says sneak attack is physical damage and therefore should be affected by DR; I say it is untyped damage and therefore it should bypass any DR. The SA damage is just additional damage dealh by your attack. Your DM is right.
mvincent 03-22-07, 01:14 PM	Sneak attack damage is added in and counts as the type of damage done by the weapon. Not sure where this is stated in the RAW.From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a): "Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack. For example, if you make a sneak attack with a sword (a slashing weapon), all the damage from the sneak attack is slashing damage" From the 3.0 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a): "A sneak attack provides bonus damage, not a special effect. In a sneak attack, roll the bonus damage and apply that against the DR. For example, a rogue who hits a foe that has DR 20/+2 with a nonmagic short sword for 6 points of damage doesn’t get through the DR. If the same rogue sneak attacks for 25 points of damage, 5 points get through DR. If the same rogue struck the same foe with a poisoned short sword for 6 points of damage, the foe would not be damaged, and the poison would not take effect because the DR stops all the damage. The same rogue sneak attacking the same foe with a poisoned short sword for 25 points of damage would deal 5 points to the foe and the foe would then have to save against the poison."
pookha 03-25-07, 07:34 PM	I [I]knew [I] that I had read that before, but could not remember where. Is it not in one of the core rulebooks, or SRD? I searched my SRD and books and could not find it. Shame that it is only in rules of the game and the FAQ.
Marcus Majarra 03-26-07, 04:16 AM	The thing is: rule revisions get done constantly. This clause on sneak attack damage is not in the SRD, simply because the designers hadn't anticipated this issue at the time the SRD was published. This is no different from the introduction of swift and immediate actions (which were released early enough after the publication of 3.5E), which are pretty mainstream for D&D now. You won't see them in the SRD, however.
Frugal 03-26-07, 08:54 AM	The thing is: rule revisions get done constantly. This clause on sneak attack damage is not in the SRD, simply because the designers hadn't anticipated this issue at the time the SRD was published. This is no different from the introduction of swift and immediate actions (which were released early enough after the publication of 3.5E), which are pretty mainstream for D&D now. You won't see them in the SRD, however. d20srd.org usually keeps pretty up to date with revisions. They include swift and immediate actions.
Marcus Majarra 03-26-07, 04:09 PM	The Hypertext SRD is not a carbon-copy of the actual SRD. Swift and immediate actions are not part of the SRD.
Frugal 03-26-07, 04:29 PM	The Hypertext SRD is not a carbon-copy of the actual SRD. Swift and immediate actions are not part of the SRD. Yes, well aware of that fact (it's also significantly reorganised), I was just commenting that there is a version of the SRD available that does include handy info like that.
mvincent 03-26-07, 04:47 PM	Swift and immediate actions are not part of the SRD.They are part of the D&D glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary) though. I think I get what you were saying though: 1) Supplements can introduce new rules 2) These new rules are still official (even if they different from the core rules, so long as this is noted). 3) The FAQ and RotG are effectively supplements. I like your observation. Note though: I don't know if the sneak attack ruling was a 'revision' so much as a possible interpretation of the original rules (and thus a "clarification").
StoneStokes 03-26-07, 05:17 PM	I think I have interpreted this alternative class feature differently than most of you. The benefit says, roughly, that you get half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage. Thus, shouldn't it be you get +1d6 sneak attack damage (instead of 3d6 x 50% damage)? When your sneak attack increases to +4d6, then your penetrating strike increases to +2d6. That is why this feature isn't available until 3rd level (and why it replaces trap sense), so that you have enough dice to actually have half of them.
meabolex 03-26-07, 06:08 PM	I think I have interpreted this alternative class feature differently than most of you. The benefit says, roughly, that you get half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage. Thus, shouldn't it be you get +1d6 sneak attack damage (instead of 3d6 x 50% damage)? When your sneak attack increases to +4d6, then your penetrating strike increases to +2d6. That is why this feature isn't available until 3rd level (and why it replaces trap sense), so that you have enough dice to actually have half of them. Kinda off-topic, but yeah, Kinda poorly worded. Another way to read it is that you deal damage equal to half the number of sneak attack dice you have (so dealing 4d6 on a sneak attack would result in +2 damage vs immune to sneak attack mobs). The only drawback to half dice is odd-levels, but I believe both interpretations are fair. The loss of 1.75 average damage on odd sneak attack dice levels gets more meaningless as you progress.