Sneak Attacks on Colossal Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sneak Attacks on Colossal Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Bonez
08-06-07, 01:20 AM I read in one of the manuals I believe it was the players handbook that the only way u can sneak attack is to be able to reach a monsters vital organs. This makes perfect sense but one of my players asked me if they could do reduced damage on their sneak attack representing an attack to a vital organ in the leg or some sort. I didnt know how to rule on this so I am asking for some advice.
This player then followed up with another good question that I wasnt sure how to answer, he asked if he could climb the monster or make jump check to somehow reach a vital organ. In case u were wondering the senario the battle was against an old White Dragon I decided that the head and neck were far out of reach and the belly was also out of reach, which resulted in taking away the assassins sneak attack abilities making him far less of a threat.
In our next session i was goin to have them take on some giants which brings me back to the same problem with being able to reach vitals with a sneak attack. I would hate to have the mage to cast flying spells every time they fought a huge creature. Or some other such thing I was hoping I could offer him a skill check to keep him from losing his sneak attacks in these senarios.
Kuros81
08-06-07, 02:02 AM I would fudge it in this situation. I am inclined to give sneak attacking characters a break.

The Achilles Tendon on almost any creature should be reachable by even a halfling. Otherwise, certain bowels can cause incredible pain as well. HP is very much a fudged and nebulous concept. Any creature that feels pain should be able to be sneak attacked from almost any direction as long as the conditions for sneak attack (denied DEX bonus/flanked) applies.
Bob Loblaw
08-06-07, 09:39 AM The femoral artery is something you don't want hit. So is the sciatic nerve. As someone else mentioned, the Achilles tendon is a good target.

If the rogue really wants to be able to reduce his damage and still be effective, he should take some of the feats that allow this. There are feats that allow you to reduce the number of sneak attack dice and allow you to reduce movement or other similar actions. Take a look in Complete Adventurer for a few ideas.
orionm42
08-06-07, 10:58 AM I read in one of the manuals I believe it was the players handbook that the only way u can sneak attack is to be able to reach a monsters vital organs. This makes perfect sense but one of my players asked me if they could do reduced damage on their sneak attack representing an attack to a vital organ in the leg or some sort.

By rule, you cannot strike the legs for a sneak attack...

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Limbs don't count as "vital."

My main question with the scenario you presented is, "why can't the rogue use a ranged weapon to strike the vital organs?"

As long as he is within 30 feet, he can sneak attack if conditions are right.

Also, remember the rules for spacing. An old white dragon is huge (not colossal). If the rogue is small, the two characters are three size categories apart and the rogue can occupy the same space as the dragon. I would probably rule the rogue could try to occupy a space under the dragon. If he was successful, I would allow him to strike the belly of the beast (you'd still need to make sure he satisfies the conditions for sneak attacking here).
Phrennzy
08-06-07, 01:56 PM I'm inclined to agree that the legs are fair targets for sneak attacks - assuming it's the upper thigh/crotch area. This is, as Orion points out, against RAW.

Another thought is that if the dragon is at all using his bite attack, the neck/head is exposed during combat (the entire combat, not just on the dragons init, as the round represents multiple attacks & dodges).

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG150_WEB.jpg

However, looking at the picture, there is no way a medium or smaller creature is hitting much of anything on the colossal creature other than his lower legs. Of course, his head/neck is still going to be in range at times...

Fighting against such a tremedously sized creature is going to have its disadvantages. In a combat between a medium vs colossal/gargantuan, I'd rule he cannot sneak attack.

Against a Huge or smaller, I'd say yes, vitals are within reach.
orionm42
08-06-07, 02:17 PM I'm inclined to agree that the legs are fair targets for sneak attacks - assuming it's the upper thigh/crotch area...

Is your crotch vital? :D
Lord_Bonez
08-06-07, 02:30 PM Ok we have established that some DMs have a house rule saying u can sneak attack any way but no one has answered my question about making a jump check or a climb check to battle the monster at his own level. One of u posted why cant the assassin use a bow to sneak attack the answer to that is he is a monk assassin and he wants to be able to use his flurry of blows ability to sneak attack multiple times per round. I dont even know off hand if he has a bow worth its weight in manure. I think I am going to post a new thread to answer the question specifically if his monk is able to make a climb check to ascend a dragon or some other such skill if not I will tell him he needs to get some cape of flying or some such thing. Thanks any way...
Phrennzy
08-06-07, 04:13 PM Is your crotch vital? :D

Like you would not believe.

And not just to me.
weasel0
08-06-07, 05:36 PM Tell the n00b to suck it up. Sometimes the attacks you wish to use/your best attacks, are simply invalid/under-powered ways to go about beating the enemy. Attemping to pierce/slash a skeleton for example. Or trying to SA any undead. Just can't be done(normally). Does it make sense? Kinda yes, kinda no. But that's just the way it is.
Crimson_Concerto
08-06-07, 06:00 PM I might be wrong, but where in the RAW does it define when vitals are out of reach? Because I don't remember anything in the description of sneak attack, critical hits, or any precision-based damage that uses creature size as any kind of restriction, so I'm pretty sure that by RAW, small creatures can indeed sneak attack collosal creatures, even while on the ground and using non-reach melee weapons.

The only reason for the "striking limbs" rule I can see is if there's some kind of battle like some games have on a ship or whatever where you're fighting an individual tentacle of a giant octopus and just can't see the rest of it, like the tentacle is its own monster... but of course, D&D doesn't have that... So I'm really inclined to just dismiss that entire "vitals out of reach" thing as a pure flavor text that has no mechanical effects...
Infernostrider
08-06-07, 06:18 PM Is your crotch vital? :D

no but very painful. the achillesheel should work too, any decent hamstringing action rules ^^
orionm42
08-06-07, 06:29 PM I might be wrong, but where in the RAW does it define when vitals are out of reach? ...

I don't think it is clearly defined. But that is a DM's job...to interpret and apply the rules as written as best he can. If you choose to rule a halfling rogue who stands three feet tall can use his dagger to strike the vital organs of a 50ft. tall tarrasque (for example), you are free to do so. Although I probably would not rule that way, it would not be unreasonable to assume the beast's belly hangs close to the ground and is in range of a critical strike.
runestar
08-06-07, 10:37 PM I see no reason to deny the rogue his sneak attack.

Is the monster being flanked, denied dex to AC or subject to a crit (in the case of telling blow)? If so, then congrats, the rogue gets to deal sneak attack on a successful hit.

For me at least, it is that straightforward. He meets all the mechanical requirements, he gets all the benefits. No need to screw him over because of some perceived technicality that seems more fluff-related than crunch. Basically, I would just close one eye here and assume the rogue finds a way a reach any of its "vitals" somehow.:)
Mock26
08-06-07, 11:08 PM The best way to sneak attack a colossal monster is to wear spiked armor and let the big lumbering beast accidentally step on you!
Eater_Of_Souls
08-07-07, 03:39 AM I would say fudge the fact that you can't do it in RL, HP's are an abstract thing to begin with.
You can also deal sneak attack with a bow, ray spell or with anything that deal damage as long as conditions are met (target loses dex bonus to AC = flat footed).
Radijs
08-07-07, 10:13 AM no but very painful. the achillesheel should work too, any decent hamstringing action rules ^^

Well it actually is a bad place to get hit. There's a lot of arteries there. You could bleed out.
_Jayne_Cobb_
08-10-07, 11:43 AM A creature is not jsut standing in place playing keepaway with his internal organs. It is moving around, reaching down to strike, etc. It is assumed the rogue would make his attack at the most advantageous moment druing the round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Bonez 08-06-07, 01:20 AM	I read in one of the manuals I believe it was the players handbook that the only way u can sneak attack is to be able to reach a monsters vital organs. This makes perfect sense but one of my players asked me if they could do reduced damage on their sneak attack representing an attack to a vital organ in the leg or some sort. I didnt know how to rule on this so I am asking for some advice. This player then followed up with another good question that I wasnt sure how to answer, he asked if he could climb the monster or make jump check to somehow reach a vital organ. In case u were wondering the senario the battle was against an old White Dragon I decided that the head and neck were far out of reach and the belly was also out of reach, which resulted in taking away the assassins sneak attack abilities making him far less of a threat. In our next session i was goin to have them take on some giants which brings me back to the same problem with being able to reach vitals with a sneak attack. I would hate to have the mage to cast flying spells every time they fought a huge creature. Or some other such thing I was hoping I could offer him a skill check to keep him from losing his sneak attacks in these senarios.
Kuros81 08-06-07, 02:02 AM	I would fudge it in this situation. I am inclined to give sneak attacking characters a break. The Achilles Tendon on almost any creature should be reachable by even a halfling. Otherwise, certain bowels can cause incredible pain as well. HP is very much a fudged and nebulous concept. Any creature that feels pain should be able to be sneak attacked from almost any direction as long as the conditions for sneak attack (denied DEX bonus/flanked) applies.
Bob Loblaw 08-06-07, 09:39 AM	The femoral artery is something you don't want hit. So is the sciatic nerve. As someone else mentioned, the Achilles tendon is a good target. If the rogue really wants to be able to reduce his damage and still be effective, he should take some of the feats that allow this. There are feats that allow you to reduce the number of sneak attack dice and allow you to reduce movement or other similar actions. Take a look in Complete Adventurer for a few ideas.
orionm42 08-06-07, 10:58 AM	I read in one of the manuals I believe it was the players handbook that the only way u can sneak attack is to be able to reach a monsters vital organs. This makes perfect sense but one of my players asked me if they could do reduced damage on their sneak attack representing an attack to a vital organ in the leg or some sort. By rule, you cannot strike the legs for a sneak attack... A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. Limbs don't count as "vital." My main question with the scenario you presented is, "why can't the rogue use a ranged weapon to strike the vital organs?" As long as he is within 30 feet, he can sneak attack if conditions are right. Also, remember the rules for spacing. An old white dragon is huge (not colossal). If the rogue is small, the two characters are three size categories apart and the rogue can occupy the same space as the dragon. I would probably rule the rogue could try to occupy a space under the dragon. If he was successful, I would allow him to strike the belly of the beast (you'd still need to make sure he satisfies the conditions for sneak attacking here).
Phrennzy 08-06-07, 01:56 PM	I'm inclined to agree that the legs are fair targets for sneak attacks - assuming it's the upper thigh/crotch area. This is, as Orion points out, against RAW. Another thought is that if the dragon is at all using his bite attack, the neck/head is exposed during combat (the entire combat, not just on the dragons init, as the round represents multiple attacks & dodges). http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph35_gallery/PHB35_PG150_WEB.jpg However, looking at the picture, there is no way a medium or smaller creature is hitting much of anything on the colossal creature other than his lower legs. Of course, his head/neck is still going to be in range at times... Fighting against such a tremedously sized creature is going to have its disadvantages. In a combat between a medium vs colossal/gargantuan, I'd rule he cannot sneak attack. Against a Huge or smaller, I'd say yes, vitals are within reach.
orionm42 08-06-07, 02:17 PM	I'm inclined to agree that the legs are fair targets for sneak attacks - assuming it's the upper thigh/crotch area... Is your crotch vital? :D
Lord_Bonez 08-06-07, 02:30 PM	Ok we have established that some DMs have a house rule saying u can sneak attack any way but no one has answered my question about making a jump check or a climb check to battle the monster at his own level. One of u posted why cant the assassin use a bow to sneak attack the answer to that is he is a monk assassin and he wants to be able to use his flurry of blows ability to sneak attack multiple times per round. I dont even know off hand if he has a bow worth its weight in manure. I think I am going to post a new thread to answer the question specifically if his monk is able to make a climb check to ascend a dragon or some other such skill if not I will tell him he needs to get some cape of flying or some such thing. Thanks any way...
Phrennzy 08-06-07, 04:13 PM	Is your crotch vital? :D Like you would not believe. And not just to me.
weasel0 08-06-07, 05:36 PM	Tell the n00b to suck it up. Sometimes the attacks you wish to use/your best attacks, are simply invalid/under-powered ways to go about beating the enemy. Attemping to pierce/slash a skeleton for example. Or trying to SA any undead. Just can't be done(normally). Does it make sense? Kinda yes, kinda no. But that's just the way it is.
Crimson_Concerto 08-06-07, 06:00 PM	I might be wrong, but where in the RAW does it define when vitals are out of reach? Because I don't remember anything in the description of sneak attack, critical hits, or any precision-based damage that uses creature size as any kind of restriction, so I'm pretty sure that by RAW, small creatures can indeed sneak attack collosal creatures, even while on the ground and using non-reach melee weapons. The only reason for the "striking limbs" rule I can see is if there's some kind of battle like some games have on a ship or whatever where you're fighting an individual tentacle of a giant octopus and just can't see the rest of it, like the tentacle is its own monster... but of course, D&D doesn't have that... So I'm really inclined to just dismiss that entire "vitals out of reach" thing as a pure flavor text that has no mechanical effects...
Infernostrider 08-06-07, 06:18 PM	Is your crotch vital? :D no but very painful. the achillesheel should work too, any decent hamstringing action rules ^^
orionm42 08-06-07, 06:29 PM	I might be wrong, but where in the RAW does it define when vitals are out of reach? ... I don't think it is clearly defined. But that is a DM's job...to interpret and apply the rules as written as best he can. If you choose to rule a halfling rogue who stands three feet tall can use his dagger to strike the vital organs of a 50ft. tall tarrasque (for example), you are free to do so. Although I probably would not rule that way, it would not be unreasonable to assume the beast's belly hangs close to the ground and is in range of a critical strike.
runestar 08-06-07, 10:37 PM	I see no reason to deny the rogue his sneak attack. Is the monster being flanked, denied dex to AC or subject to a crit (in the case of telling blow)? If so, then congrats, the rogue gets to deal sneak attack on a successful hit. For me at least, it is that straightforward. He meets all the mechanical requirements, he gets all the benefits. No need to screw him over because of some perceived technicality that seems more fluff-related than crunch. Basically, I would just close one eye here and assume the rogue finds a way a reach any of its "vitals" somehow.:)
Mock26 08-06-07, 11:08 PM	The best way to sneak attack a colossal monster is to wear spiked armor and let the big lumbering beast accidentally step on you!
Eater_Of_Souls 08-07-07, 03:39 AM	I would say fudge the fact that you can't do it in RL, HP's are an abstract thing to begin with. You can also deal sneak attack with a bow, ray spell or with anything that deal damage as long as conditions are met (target loses dex bonus to AC = flat footed).
Radijs 08-07-07, 10:13 AM	no but very painful. the achillesheel should work too, any decent hamstringing action rules ^^ Well it actually is a bad place to get hit. There's a lot of arteries there. You could bleed out.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 08-10-07, 11:43 AM	A creature is not jsut standing in place playing keepaway with his internal organs. It is moving around, reaching down to strike, etc. It is assumed the rogue would make his attack at the most advantageous moment druing the round.