Sneak attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sneak attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PabloA
07-26-07, 10:14 PM How many sneak attacks can a rogue (or any class with sneak attack) do on a single round?

For example, if a rogue has several attacks due to his base attack bonus, can he make several sneak attacks in one round? Or is he limited to one sneak attack? Or maybe one sneak attack per enemy per round?

What happens if the rogue has feats that allow extra attacks, like two weapon fighting...

As a rule of the house I’ve imposed only one sneak attack (because needs concentration on a vulnerable spot) on a single round, the rogue can still complete his full attack, but without extra damage.

I did this because the rogue (actually Ninja), he uses shurikens... so he makes 3 different attack rolls... per hand.... with rapid shot...

This became more complicated when he took the "Shuriken Mastery" feat. So now he can choose 3 different targets for one hand of shurikens...

I really need a second opinion on this issue, appreciate some help
Krusk
07-26-07, 11:20 PM 1- legally they get as many sneak attacks a round as they can make attacks so long as they continue to meet the requrements for sneak attack.

2-limiting this really screws over rogue/stealth characters in combat.

3-In 3.5 you can throw one shuriken a round. in 3.0 i think it was diffrent but it was changed in the newer version.

4- even in 3.0 i believe it specified that you only get one sneak attack per set of shurnkien you throw.

5- where is the feat shruiken mastery?

So if your TWF rogue who is hasted from the spell is somehow able to full attack someone, he may make 10 sneak attacks that round. so long as he still meets the requirements.
Jungingen
07-26-07, 11:26 PM Don't limit Sneak Attacks to one per round. Sneak Attack is one of the only ways that TWF becomes a reasonable source of damage. Taking away Sneak Attack just makes Rogues and their sneaky friends even less powerful and viable compared to the THF meatheads of the world.

As it is, Rogues can't do jack squat against undead, constructs, and a variety of other targets that can't be critted, flanked, or caught flat-footed. Let them have their fun. It's dull to be useless until the party runs into a trap.
StevenO
07-26-07, 11:37 PM Sneak attack damage applies for each attack roll that meets the SA requirements.

Shruiken rules changed in 3.5 I believe they can now be thrown one per attack but can be drawn as ammunition and are also legal to use in furry attacks.

Note that the Ninja's Sudden Strike doesn't work exactly the same as a Rogue's sneak attack. They may be viewed similiarly by many things but they do have slightly different conditional requirements.
Kouk
07-27-07, 12:55 AM If your attack qualifies for Sneak Attack (perhaps your opponent is Flat Footed, or Flanked by you or whatever) then any attack you make against him is a Sneak Attack.

The rules for Shuriken were indeed changed from version 3.0 to 3.5. In 3.5, you can only throw a single shuriken at a time, as opposed to a volley of three shuriken in version 3.0.

If he is using Rapid Shot with Shuriken, and he is normally allowed 2 attacks due to his BAB, then he can throw 3 with a single hand, but only 1 or 2 with his "off-hand" and can't use Rapid Shot because he is still limited in the number of attacks he can make with his "off hand" by whatever TWF feats he has. Rapid Shot is a single extra attack a round, it doesn't say a single extra attack with each hand, just a flat single extra attack.

I also don't know what 'Shuriken Mastery' is.

Edit: I'm not sure I expressed this clearly, but oh well.

Anyway, the Ninja is arguably one of the weaker base classes available. Combined with the limited nature of Sudden Strike, I would say just let him get as many Sudden Strike Attacks in a round that he qualifies for, because he needs them.
PabloA
07-27-07, 04:53 PM Well, fist of all thanks for the help… Now I would explain the entire history of the shuriken’s issue:

Shurikens and D&D Version

We (my group of friends) have been playing D&D for many years; some of them (not me) even played the 2.0 Version. We did get our hands in the 3.5 books, and by books I refer to almost every book has come out, official an unofficial ones.

I simple didn’t read the new entry on shurikens on the PHB, sorry… I think I like them most when they where three, because a character with enough base attack could make a volley anime like, really cool but with low damage, but of course, only one shuriken solve many problems related with extra damage.

Shuriken Mastery

I believe is a non official book “The way of the ninja” oriented for Rokugan Campaign… the book principally has several organization’s descriptions, and some clan feats, one of them shuriken mastery. It’s designed for 3.0 rules.

The feats need Weapon focus (Shurikens), and I believe some BAB… (Don’t have the book with me right now) and allows choosing 3 different targets for your shuriken volley, and if you throw the 3 shurikens at the same target, you get +1 damage on each shuriken... Sweet

The character asked me to allow this feat on my campaign, and I allowed him because it has style (didn’t read shuriken new description).

Sneak attack in my campaign

The game I’ve started, and thanks to player requests has low magic, almost no magic at all… I even banned spellcasting classes to PCs… at the early beginnings of the game was quite lame, but on time the effort of the characters to get over mundane difficulties worth it. They fear cliffs, the really hate wilderness (and with a ranger and a barbarian in the group), they think seriously about fighting high lvl NPCs because when you die… you’re dead. We all started RPing seriously, all the characters has deep, interesting backgrounds, no more kick in the door RPing.

Most of my players are specialized fighters (I include the ranger and the barbarian in the group, everyone is multiclass), and without magical equipment damage inflicted remains on controllable proportions, the only one able of inflicting great amounts of damage is the Ninja (they don’t fight undeads or minotaurs too often), and if he’s able to do sudden strike damage with every attack he has, loosing initiative against him will be a certain death. Way to overpowered compared with fighters (in this campaign).

I know is unfair to take him out his best class ability, but the player has also realized that would be to much damage, and the skills make him a more versatile character than the others, so he’s not weak what so ever, he’s even the most useful character on the party.

Sneak attacks in any campaign

I still thing is a overpowered ability, a rogue has a good dex score, which means, their initiative tends to be the higher… no spellcaster could pass a Concentration check after a sneak attack, and that in a one on one, front to front battle… Rogue can easily ambush anybody.
A lvl 3 Rogue with rapid shot, will shot twice each round, which means 4d6 plus weapon damage; let’s say 6d6 + 2, minimum, average: 23, that’s high damage even for lvl 6 character, few wizards could stay on foot on that level after the rogue full attack.
A lvl 5 wizard can cast fireball, most basic offensive spell on 3rd level, 5d6!! And is actually a good spell.
Now with telling blow, a pair of keen kukris (now martial)… Voila
But that’s just me.

Well your opinions would be cosiderated as professional coaching, thanks… Hope my players don’t read this…
Puca
07-27-07, 05:26 PM Shuriken Mastery

I believe is a non official book “The way of the ninja” oriented for Rokugan Campaign… the book principally has several organization’s descriptions, and some clan feats, one of them shuriken mastery. It’s designed for 3.0 rules.

The feats need Weapon focus (Shurikens), and I believe some BAB… (Don’t have the book with me right now) and allows choosing 3 different targets for your shuriken volley, and if you throw the 3 shurikens at the same target, you get +1 damage on each shuriken... SweetIf it is truely a volley, that is, if you make one attack roll for the three shuriken, then only one gets SA.
Sort of like ManyShot. This is covered in one of the Rules of the Game articles on sneak attack. This would resolve some of your issues.

Sneak attacks in any campaign

I still thing is a overpowered ability, a rogue has a good dex score, which means, their initiative tends to be the higher… no spellcaster could pass a Concentration check after a sneak attack, and that in a one on one, front to front battle… Rogue can easily ambush anybody.On the opening attack, yes, rogues are terrifying to face. But there are still just so many situations where SA isnt going to work at all, that diminishing its value where it can seems a unfair.

A lvl 3 Rogue with rapid shot, will shot twice each round, which means 4d6 plus weapon damage; let’s say 6d6 + 2, minimum, average: 23, that’s high damage even for lvl 6 character, few wizards could stay on foot on that level after the rogue full attack.If they hit him at all. Youre using a wizard as basis for finding it overpowered, but the wizard has the worst hp in the game. The only way he lives through any attack is by not getting hit.

A level 3 fighter is going to have at least a 16 str. With a two handed weapon (1d12) hes looking at an average of 10.5 damage per hit. Its half than what the rogue (With a feat) could do, but he can do it every round, regardless of the loss of dex. And thats not even trying to make him good.
Jungingen
07-27-07, 07:05 PM It sounds like your tanks are softskills, because they shouldn't be lagging behind the Ninja. And really, Sudden Strike shouldn't be much of a problem. He's usually going to get one round to use it and then he's done. Sure, if he wins initiative, something might die, but remember that he still has to hit and only has a few shots. After his opponents are no longer flat-footed he's just a schmuck with lowish Str and a shoddy BAB. Let him shine at the beginning of encounters and count yourself lucky if your Barbarian isn't optimized, because his damage will scale much more successfully with levels.

Really if you further dilute Sudden Strike, he might as well be playing a Samurai. That's pathetic.

Also, Fireball is a lousy spell. Web is usually better and it's 2nd level.
Krusk
07-28-07, 06:18 AM I still thing is a overpowered ability, a rogue has a good dex score, which means, their initiative tends to be the higher… no spellcaster could pass a Concentration check after a sneak attack, and that in a one on one, front to front battle… Rogue can easily ambush anybody.
A lvl 3 Rogue with rapid shot, will shot twice each round, which means 4d6 plus weapon damage; let’s say 6d6 + 2, minimum, average: 23, that’s high damage even for lvl 6 character, few wizards could stay on foot on that level after the rogue full attack.
A lvl 5 wizard can cast fireball, most basic offensive spell on 3rd level, 5d6!! And is actually a good spell.

This is pretty much your problem with sneak attack. First off you are assuming the two opponenets in an arena setting. Why would a wizard ever enter an arena setting befor level 9 or 10, I can think of no reason. Of course they die. Secondly, why would the wizard not be sitting around buffed? he knows he has an enemy, and knows the enemy is coming via scry and the like. Why would he sit and wait? the wizard in actuality leaves maybe sets a few explosive runes, and comes back when he is ready. If at higher levels the wizard will have a contingant spell set in order to disappear right befor he is attacked. Then reappear when he is ready to fight.

Also, do not judge the wizards power by fireball. It is generally not one of their best spells. At the same level he can be shooting rays of enfeeblement, grease, sleep, charm person. Any one of those can be a combat ender, and most of the time is.

Generally you are assuming ideal situations for the rogue but not the spellcaster.
PabloA
07-28-07, 09:30 AM Not the point.... In a low powered campaign (like mine) sneak attack damage on every attack the rogue has seems overpowered, there're ways to deal sneak attack after first round of combat: feint, telling blow, flanking, etc....

The question was, do I let him do more than a sneak attack per round (because is fair)? Or leave it as it is (one sneak attack per round), and you already solve my shurikens problem… although he’s not gonna like the new rules.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-28-07, 11:24 AM Even in 3.0E, you only got sneak attack once per volley of three, not three times per volley.

Using feint takes an action, and only works for one attack.

Flanking requires someone else to flank with. This is *supposed* to be where the rogue stands out.

The rogue should get a sneak attack on every attack which qualifies because not only is it fair, it's also the rules, and they're balanced on the assumption that the rogue will get those sneak attacks.
Marcus Majarra
07-28-07, 12:19 PM The question was, do I let him do more than a sneak attack per round (because is fair)?
Yes, do let him. There are far too many ways to negate sneak attack, the most simple one being concealment (any degree of concealment, even a meager 1% negates sneak attack). This means that you can't even use sneak attack against a target in shadowy illumination.
Geogoose
07-28-07, 12:49 PM Sneak Attack is balanced in a normal DnD setting. By normal, I mean a setting where all the players are equipped with proper wealth per level magic items, a good mix of spellcasting and melee PC's, many types of monsters, etc.

In this normal setting, Sneak Attack damage does not particularly overshadow the sort of damage a normally equipped barbarian or fighter should be capable of provided the monsters and NPC's amount to a good mix of sneak attack resistant or immune types.

If your campaign is heavily loaded with targets easily sneak attacked, the balance skews a little. If your campaign heavily limits the magic equipment PC's get, classes loaded with special abilities may seem stronger than normal. I think the OP's campaign fits both these situations.

I do NOT think it unreasonable that you limited sneak attacks(sudden strike) in your campaign. But for the sake of the PC's, please keep an objective eye on on things in case your restriction proves to limiting.
Jungingen
07-30-07, 03:35 AM Sudden Strike doesn't work when you're flanking, only when your opponent has lost his Dex to AC. That's why it's called something else and that's one large reason why Ninja is a weak class.

If you're concerned that someone will say "Whoa, I can roll a Rogue and Sneak Attack any time that I'm flanking?" then again I say that you're lucky. Any half-way decent charger build would tear the Ninja's average damage apart as your campaign progresses to higher levels. If Sudden Strike or Sneak Attack is destroying your campaign balance or making things a little too "high-powered" for you, then I don't know what to tell you. That's the realm of pure house rules and YMMV.
Infernostrider
07-30-07, 06:34 AM sneak attack=1 attack taking a full round far as i know. It takes a while to discern that vital spot and one needs to sneak up behind the target without him realizing some1s there to hurt him. Even if one can do more in a round when sneak attacking then the sneak attack, the attacked would no longer be surprised by the sneak attack, and thus the attacker would need to go back to the shadows first, making succesful hide checks
Marcus Majarra
07-30-07, 12:59 PM sneak attack=1 attack taking a full round far as i know. It takes a while to discern that vital spot and one needs to sneak up behind the target without him realizing some1s there to hurt him. Even if one can do more in a round when sneak attacking then the sneak attack, the attacked would no longer be surprised by the sneak attack, and thus the attacker would need to go back to the shadows first, making succesful hide checks
This is completely false. Sneak Attack works whenever your opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC or is flanked. It requires no more time than any other sort of attack.

This all is covered both in the PHB and the official FAQ.
Jungingen
07-30-07, 01:41 PM If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

There you have it, straight from the SRD. And as Marcus said, you can look this up on any FAQ or in your very own PHB. Rogues can check for Sneak Attack damage on any attack; think of it as a "if yes, then" conditional thing. If either no Dex to AC or Flanked applies to the target and the target's vitals are within reach and if the target is not immune to critical hits or concealed, the rules state that you get Sneak Attack damage. PabloA has house ruled that away, but the consensus seems to be that this weakens Rogues unnecessarily.

Even a Death Attack doesn't require any unusual concentration or effort beyond that required by a Sneak Attack. You can even undertake any other actions while studying the target so long as you are not perceived by it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PabloA 07-26-07, 10:14 PM	How many sneak attacks can a rogue (or any class with sneak attack) do on a single round? For example, if a rogue has several attacks due to his base attack bonus, can he make several sneak attacks in one round? Or is he limited to one sneak attack? Or maybe one sneak attack per enemy per round? What happens if the rogue has feats that allow extra attacks, like two weapon fighting... As a rule of the house I’ve imposed only one sneak attack (because needs concentration on a vulnerable spot) on a single round, the rogue can still complete his full attack, but without extra damage. I did this because the rogue (actually Ninja), he uses shurikens... so he makes 3 different attack rolls... per hand.... with rapid shot... This became more complicated when he took the "Shuriken Mastery" feat. So now he can choose 3 different targets for one hand of shurikens... I really need a second opinion on this issue, appreciate some help
Krusk 07-26-07, 11:20 PM	1- legally they get as many sneak attacks a round as they can make attacks so long as they continue to meet the requrements for sneak attack. 2-limiting this really screws over rogue/stealth characters in combat. 3-In 3.5 you can throw one shuriken a round. in 3.0 i think it was diffrent but it was changed in the newer version. 4- even in 3.0 i believe it specified that you only get one sneak attack per set of shurnkien you throw. 5- where is the feat shruiken mastery? So if your TWF rogue who is hasted from the spell is somehow able to full attack someone, he may make 10 sneak attacks that round. so long as he still meets the requirements.
Jungingen 07-26-07, 11:26 PM	Don't limit Sneak Attacks to one per round. Sneak Attack is one of the only ways that TWF becomes a reasonable source of damage. Taking away Sneak Attack just makes Rogues and their sneaky friends even less powerful and viable compared to the THF meatheads of the world. As it is, Rogues can't do jack squat against undead, constructs, and a variety of other targets that can't be critted, flanked, or caught flat-footed. Let them have their fun. It's dull to be useless until the party runs into a trap.
StevenO 07-26-07, 11:37 PM	Sneak attack damage applies for each attack roll that meets the SA requirements. Shruiken rules changed in 3.5 I believe they can now be thrown one per attack but can be drawn as ammunition and are also legal to use in furry attacks. Note that the Ninja's Sudden Strike doesn't work exactly the same as a Rogue's sneak attack. They may be viewed similiarly by many things but they do have slightly different conditional requirements.
Kouk 07-27-07, 12:55 AM	If your attack qualifies for Sneak Attack (perhaps your opponent is Flat Footed, or Flanked by you or whatever) then any attack you make against him is a Sneak Attack. The rules for Shuriken were indeed changed from version 3.0 to 3.5. In 3.5, you can only throw a single shuriken at a time, as opposed to a volley of three shuriken in version 3.0. If he is using Rapid Shot with Shuriken, and he is normally allowed 2 attacks due to his BAB, then he can throw 3 with a single hand, but only 1 or 2 with his "off-hand" and can't use Rapid Shot because he is still limited in the number of attacks he can make with his "off hand" by whatever TWF feats he has. Rapid Shot is a single extra attack a round, it doesn't say a single extra attack with each hand, just a flat single extra attack. I also don't know what 'Shuriken Mastery' is. Edit: I'm not sure I expressed this clearly, but oh well. Anyway, the Ninja is arguably one of the weaker base classes available. Combined with the limited nature of Sudden Strike, I would say just let him get as many Sudden Strike Attacks in a round that he qualifies for, because he needs them.
PabloA 07-27-07, 04:53 PM	Well, fist of all thanks for the help… Now I would explain the entire history of the shuriken’s issue: Shurikens and D&D Version We (my group of friends) have been playing D&D for many years; some of them (not me) even played the 2.0 Version. We did get our hands in the 3.5 books, and by books I refer to almost every book has come out, official an unofficial ones. I simple didn’t read the new entry on shurikens on the PHB, sorry… I think I like them most when they where three, because a character with enough base attack could make a volley anime like, really cool but with low damage, but of course, only one shuriken solve many problems related with extra damage. Shuriken Mastery I believe is a non official book “The way of the ninja” oriented for Rokugan Campaign… the book principally has several organization’s descriptions, and some clan feats, one of them shuriken mastery. It’s designed for 3.0 rules. The feats need Weapon focus (Shurikens), and I believe some BAB… (Don’t have the book with me right now) and allows choosing 3 different targets for your shuriken volley, and if you throw the 3 shurikens at the same target, you get +1 damage on each shuriken... Sweet The character asked me to allow this feat on my campaign, and I allowed him because it has style (didn’t read shuriken new description). Sneak attack in my campaign The game I’ve started, and thanks to player requests has low magic, almost no magic at all… I even banned spellcasting classes to PCs… at the early beginnings of the game was quite lame, but on time the effort of the characters to get over mundane difficulties worth it. They fear cliffs, the really hate wilderness (and with a ranger and a barbarian in the group), they think seriously about fighting high lvl NPCs because when you die… you’re dead. We all started RPing seriously, all the characters has deep, interesting backgrounds, no more kick in the door RPing. Most of my players are specialized fighters (I include the ranger and the barbarian in the group, everyone is multiclass), and without magical equipment damage inflicted remains on controllable proportions, the only one able of inflicting great amounts of damage is the Ninja (they don’t fight undeads or minotaurs too often), and if he’s able to do sudden strike damage with every attack he has, loosing initiative against him will be a certain death. Way to overpowered compared with fighters (in this campaign). I know is unfair to take him out his best class ability, but the player has also realized that would be to much damage, and the skills make him a more versatile character than the others, so he’s not weak what so ever, he’s even the most useful character on the party. Sneak attacks in any campaign I still thing is a overpowered ability, a rogue has a good dex score, which means, their initiative tends to be the higher… no spellcaster could pass a Concentration check after a sneak attack, and that in a one on one, front to front battle… Rogue can easily ambush anybody. A lvl 3 Rogue with rapid shot, will shot twice each round, which means 4d6 plus weapon damage; let’s say 6d6 + 2, minimum, average: 23, that’s high damage even for lvl 6 character, few wizards could stay on foot on that level after the rogue full attack. A lvl 5 wizard can cast fireball, most basic offensive spell on 3rd level, 5d6!! And is actually a good spell. Now with telling blow, a pair of keen kukris (now martial)… Voila But that’s just me. Well your opinions would be cosiderated as professional coaching, thanks… Hope my players don’t read this…
Puca 07-27-07, 05:26 PM	Shuriken Mastery I believe is a non official book “The way of the ninja” oriented for Rokugan Campaign… the book principally has several organization’s descriptions, and some clan feats, one of them shuriken mastery. It’s designed for 3.0 rules. The feats need Weapon focus (Shurikens), and I believe some BAB… (Don’t have the book with me right now) and allows choosing 3 different targets for your shuriken volley, and if you throw the 3 shurikens at the same target, you get +1 damage on each shuriken... SweetIf it is truely a volley, that is, if you make one attack roll for the three shuriken, then only one gets SA. Sort of like ManyShot. This is covered in one of the Rules of the Game articles on sneak attack. This would resolve some of your issues. Sneak attacks in any campaign I still thing is a overpowered ability, a rogue has a good dex score, which means, their initiative tends to be the higher… no spellcaster could pass a Concentration check after a sneak attack, and that in a one on one, front to front battle… Rogue can easily ambush anybody.On the opening attack, yes, rogues are terrifying to face. But there are still just so many situations where SA isnt going to work at all, that diminishing its value where it can seems a unfair. A lvl 3 Rogue with rapid shot, will shot twice each round, which means 4d6 plus weapon damage; let’s say 6d6 + 2, minimum, average: 23, that’s high damage even for lvl 6 character, few wizards could stay on foot on that level after the rogue full attack.If they hit him at all. Youre using a wizard as basis for finding it overpowered, but the wizard has the worst hp in the game. The only way he lives through any attack is by not getting hit. A level 3 fighter is going to have at least a 16 str. With a two handed weapon (1d12) hes looking at an average of 10.5 damage per hit. Its half than what the rogue (With a feat) could do, but he can do it every round, regardless of the loss of dex. And thats not even trying to make him good.
Jungingen 07-27-07, 07:05 PM	It sounds like your tanks are softskills, because they shouldn't be lagging behind the Ninja. And really, Sudden Strike shouldn't be much of a problem. He's usually going to get one round to use it and then he's done. Sure, if he wins initiative, something might die, but remember that he still has to hit and only has a few shots. After his opponents are no longer flat-footed he's just a schmuck with lowish Str and a shoddy BAB. Let him shine at the beginning of encounters and count yourself lucky if your Barbarian isn't optimized, because his damage will scale much more successfully with levels. Really if you further dilute Sudden Strike, he might as well be playing a Samurai. That's pathetic. Also, Fireball is a lousy spell. Web is usually better and it's 2nd level.
Krusk 07-28-07, 06:18 AM	I still thing is a overpowered ability, a rogue has a good dex score, which means, their initiative tends to be the higher… no spellcaster could pass a Concentration check after a sneak attack, and that in a one on one, front to front battle… Rogue can easily ambush anybody. A lvl 3 Rogue with rapid shot, will shot twice each round, which means 4d6 plus weapon damage; let’s say 6d6 + 2, minimum, average: 23, that’s high damage even for lvl 6 character, few wizards could stay on foot on that level after the rogue full attack. A lvl 5 wizard can cast fireball, most basic offensive spell on 3rd level, 5d6!! And is actually a good spell. This is pretty much your problem with sneak attack. First off you are assuming the two opponenets in an arena setting. Why would a wizard ever enter an arena setting befor level 9 or 10, I can think of no reason. Of course they die. Secondly, why would the wizard not be sitting around buffed? he knows he has an enemy, and knows the enemy is coming via scry and the like. Why would he sit and wait? the wizard in actuality leaves maybe sets a few explosive runes, and comes back when he is ready. If at higher levels the wizard will have a contingant spell set in order to disappear right befor he is attacked. Then reappear when he is ready to fight. Also, do not judge the wizards power by fireball. It is generally not one of their best spells. At the same level he can be shooting rays of enfeeblement, grease, sleep, charm person. Any one of those can be a combat ender, and most of the time is. Generally you are assuming ideal situations for the rogue but not the spellcaster.
PabloA 07-28-07, 09:30 AM	Not the point.... In a low powered campaign (like mine) sneak attack damage on every attack the rogue has seems overpowered, there're ways to deal sneak attack after first round of combat: feint, telling blow, flanking, etc.... The question was, do I let him do more than a sneak attack per round (because is fair)? Or leave it as it is (one sneak attack per round), and you already solve my shurikens problem… although he’s not gonna like the new rules.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-28-07, 11:24 AM	Even in 3.0E, you only got sneak attack once per volley of three, not three times per volley. Using feint takes an action, and only works for one attack. Flanking requires someone else to flank with. This is supposed to be where the rogue stands out. The rogue should get a sneak attack on every attack which qualifies because not only is it fair, it's also the rules, and they're balanced on the assumption that the rogue will get those sneak attacks.
Marcus Majarra 07-28-07, 12:19 PM	The question was, do I let him do more than a sneak attack per round (because is fair)? Yes, do let him. There are far too many ways to negate sneak attack, the most simple one being concealment (any degree of concealment, even a meager 1% negates sneak attack). This means that you can't even use sneak attack against a target in shadowy illumination.
Geogoose 07-28-07, 12:49 PM	Sneak Attack is balanced in a normal DnD setting. By normal, I mean a setting where all the players are equipped with proper wealth per level magic items, a good mix of spellcasting and melee PC's, many types of monsters, etc. In this normal setting, Sneak Attack damage does not particularly overshadow the sort of damage a normally equipped barbarian or fighter should be capable of provided the monsters and NPC's amount to a good mix of sneak attack resistant or immune types. If your campaign is heavily loaded with targets easily sneak attacked, the balance skews a little. If your campaign heavily limits the magic equipment PC's get, classes loaded with special abilities may seem stronger than normal. I think the OP's campaign fits both these situations. I do NOT think it unreasonable that you limited sneak attacks(sudden strike) in your campaign. But for the sake of the PC's, please keep an objective eye on on things in case your restriction proves to limiting.
Jungingen 07-30-07, 03:35 AM	Sudden Strike doesn't work when you're flanking, only when your opponent has lost his Dex to AC. That's why it's called something else and that's one large reason why Ninja is a weak class. If you're concerned that someone will say "Whoa, I can roll a Rogue and Sneak Attack any time that I'm flanking?" then again I say that you're lucky. Any half-way decent charger build would tear the Ninja's average damage apart as your campaign progresses to higher levels. If Sudden Strike or Sneak Attack is destroying your campaign balance or making things a little too "high-powered" for you, then I don't know what to tell you. That's the realm of pure house rules and YMMV.
Infernostrider 07-30-07, 06:34 AM	sneak attack=1 attack taking a full round far as i know. It takes a while to discern that vital spot and one needs to sneak up behind the target without him realizing some1s there to hurt him. Even if one can do more in a round when sneak attacking then the sneak attack, the attacked would no longer be surprised by the sneak attack, and thus the attacker would need to go back to the shadows first, making succesful hide checks
Marcus Majarra 07-30-07, 12:59 PM	sneak attack=1 attack taking a full round far as i know. It takes a while to discern that vital spot and one needs to sneak up behind the target without him realizing some1s there to hurt him. Even if one can do more in a round when sneak attacking then the sneak attack, the attacked would no longer be surprised by the sneak attack, and thus the attacker would need to go back to the shadows first, making succesful hide checks This is completely false. Sneak Attack works whenever your opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC or is flanked. It requires no more time than any other sort of attack. This all is covered both in the PHB and the official FAQ.
Jungingen 07-30-07, 01:41 PM	If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. There you have it, straight from the SRD. And as Marcus said, you can look this up on any FAQ or in your very own PHB. Rogues can check for Sneak Attack damage on any attack; think of it as a "if yes, then" conditional thing. If either no Dex to AC or Flanked applies to the target and the target's vitals are within reach and if the target is not immune to critical hits or concealed, the rules state that you get Sneak Attack damage. PabloA has house ruled that away, but the consensus seems to be that this weakens Rogues unnecessarily. Even a Death Attack doesn't require any unusual concentration or effort beyond that required by a Sneak Attack. You can even undertake any other actions while studying the target so long as you are not perceived by it.