Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PenderGrass 09-24-07, 08:18 PM	Wall of Ice Evocation [Cold] Level: Sor/Wiz 4 .... Saving Throw: Reflex negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes .... Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. .... Even when the ice has been broken through, a sheet of frigid air remains. Any creature stepping through it (including the one who broke through the wall) takes 1d6 points of cold damage +1 point per caster level (no save). I highlighted some of the sections I found important to the question. First, the spell clearly grants SR. Second, the "disrupting" Reflex save is clearly not a normal saving throw (i.e., it isn't like a save vs. a fireball). Finally, the only real damage possible from the wall of ice is from its frigid air - passing through a broken section of the wall (and that is only a situation from a created wall and not the hemisphere). So, an Ice Devil creates a wall of ice/hemisphere within reach of a PC (possibly even over top of the PC). The PC gets the normal Reflex save to disrupt the hemisphere as it forms. He fails. Upon further review, the player claims his PCs SR should apply to the wall of ice as it forms. How would you rule? :dragon: ****
heffroncm 09-25-07, 02:45 AM	You're intentionally interfering with the spell to disrupt it with that special Reflex save. A purely passive resistance to spells wouldn't help you. SR should only apply to the frigid air damage, which will be checked once the first time a creature would be subject to such damage from one casting of the spell, and that result would be used for the duration of that casting.
Lotusblossom 09-25-07, 03:09 AM	SR won't help you avoid being trapped.
Hawk Kriegsman 09-25-07, 10:02 AM	I would rule this way: If the wall of ice (plane or hemisphere) is forming adjcent to the PC then he gets to make the special reflex saving throw to disrupt it. It the wall of ice (plane or hemisphere) is forming in the PCs square then his SR would apply to disrupt it; if the ice devil makes its caster level check then the PC gets the special reflex save to disrupt it. If that fails he has a problem! If the wall of ice (plane or hemisphere) is forming and not adjcent to the PC then he can't to squat about it. Thanx! Hawk
Phrennzy 09-25-07, 10:59 AM	You're intentionally interfering with the spell to disrupt it with that special Reflex save. A purely passive resistance to spells wouldn't help you. SR should only apply to the frigid air damage, which will be checked once the first time a creature would be subject to such damage from one casting of the spell, and that result would be used for the duration of that casting. Agreed.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-25-07, 03:56 PM	It the wall of ice (plane or hemisphere) is forming in the PCs square then his SR would apply to disrupt it; if the ice devil makes its caster level check then the PC gets the special reflex save to disrupt it. If that fails he has a problem!The problem with that is that is you can't target the spell in an occupied square.
heffroncm 09-25-07, 04:05 PM	The problem with that is that is you can't target the spell in an occupied square. Not much of a problem. Just illustrates that Spell Resistance can't apply to the forming of the wall itself, as that doesn't target any magic at the PC.
Ace_of_time 09-26-07, 01:19 PM	I think the player was saying that when his PC tried the reflex save he was in the spell area and his SR should have been a factor.
PenderGrass 09-28-07, 02:25 PM	I think the player was saying that when his PC tried the reflex save he was in the spell area and his SR should have been a factor. That is fairly close to his thinking. :dragon: ****
heffroncm 09-28-07, 07:45 PM	That is fairly close to his thinking. :dragon: **** Yeah, you're not able to targe the spell on top of someone is the thing.
PenderGrass 09-28-07, 08:29 PM	Yeah, you're not able to targe the spell on top of someone is the thing. The spell wasn't targeted on someone. It was a hemispherical dome large enough to contain the PC. Targeting the PC would have been an auto-failure of the wall of ice. :dragon: ****
Ace_of_time 09-28-07, 08:44 PM	The spell entry doesn't say that SR is apply to only damage. It should have been rolled before the wall even formed. SR is apply during casting not after the spell take affect. (in most cases)
Scipio 09-28-07, 09:13 PM	Since the spell can't directly target the PC, spell resistance can't apply during casting. The earliest I could see it coming into play is the wall of frigid air.
Ace_of_time 09-28-07, 11:00 PM	If it was a special case then it would state that in the entry. IE: say see text. It doesn't however just says you have to roll SR. Since the spell was mean't to trap the PC I don't see why it wasn't targeting a PC. Maybe if some one can post where it has been fixed in a Errata or RAW. Texts says it applies upon casting, not damage. I'll look under magic in the PHB just to be sure. SPELL RESISTANCE Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check. The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place. The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless. In such a case, you do not need to make the caster level check described above Don't see where it says damage only or you have to be the target of the spell. (only that in most cases it has to target and doesn't apply for spells in place.) The PC interacted with the spell as it was being cast with the saves and SR would apply no matter what. SR should have been rolled first after he decided to save, then the save, and then the spell effect.
PenderGrass 09-29-07, 02:36 PM	Let's examine that: Originally Posted by SRD SPELL RESISTANCE Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. I think the "defensive ability" here is key. Since the wall is having no real adverse effect on the character, there is nothing to defend against. Furthermore... The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. A wall of ice is not a magical attack - i.e., it is not doing any actual damage at the time of forming. Also, the reflex save is not a direct interaction with the spell - it is not a save vs. any type of spell-derived DC, it doesn't prevent damage or any real adverse effect. By allowing a character to effect the spell in such a way would also bring into effect some odd things. The least of which would not be the ability of those with a longer reach being able to disrupt the spell with SR. So, a character with a spiked chain would be able to disrupt the wall at 10-feet with SR. Later, if that same character now only had a standard 5-foot reach, his SR would now also be limited to his standard reach. In essence, to use your interpretation, SR would now become a matter of reach. :dragon: ****
Ace_of_time 09-29-07, 05:41 PM	It does damage the person. It doesn't say harmless or object next to the SR entry.
PenderGrass 09-29-07, 06:42 PM	It does damage the person. It doesn't say harmless or object next to the SR entry. Please quote the spell damage for a wall of ice forming, as I can't seem to find it. :dragon: ****
Khadmus 09-29-07, 06:50 PM	Stupidity deleted.
Ace_of_time 09-30-07, 12:22 PM	It only damages going through it. But that doesn't change anything. The spell entry would have said if it was only on damage. Otherwise it would work like wall of force or iron does. When he tried to enter the area for the with the save that made him part of the spell area and SR should have been rolled first, and then the save. I'll look in the errata to see if they fix the spell entry.
Ace_of_time 09-30-07, 12:46 PM	Nothing in the Errata and I looked through the faq too. Sorry. If the spell says SR applies then you have to apply it. There are loads of spells that apply SR but don't damage, Not that many NON target spells but there are a few. Fire ball is a area and it applies SR. Owl's wisdom does too and it is a target but doesn't do damage. Note: Daylight doesn't apply SR no matter where you cast it.
PenderGrass 10-01-07, 01:11 AM	Nothing in the Errata and I looked through the faq too. Sorry. If the spell says SR applies then you have to apply it. There are loads of spells that apply SR but don't damage, Not that many NON target spells but there are a few. Fire ball is a area and it applies SR. Owl's wisdom does too and it is a target but doesn't do damage. Note: Daylight doesn't apply SR no matter where you cast it. So, if I have a reach weapon and am able to disrupt the wall of ice with that reach, my SR applies at reach now as well? :dragon: ****
Ace_of_time 10-01-07, 02:27 PM	I think that would be the DM's call. It is your game. make it work however makes sense to you.
PenderGrass 10-01-07, 03:12 PM	I think that would be the DM's call. It is your game. make it work however makes sense to you. Since you are one of the only people that is interpreting the SR applying to the formation of the wall of ice, I am asking how you would apply/explain this. :dragon: ****
Ace_of_time 10-01-07, 03:23 PM	Can a reach weapon be used to disrupt the spell? If so then I wouldn't let SR apply. Because they wouldn't be in the spell area. I don't know if a reach weapon can be use for that save.
heffroncm 10-01-07, 08:22 PM	I'd go on two precedents. 1) Spell Resistance does not apply to any spell that does not directly effect the square the PC is in. SR should not apply on the Wall of Ice forming, because the PC is not in the square. The reflex save is precisely so you can put some part of your body in the forming area, causing it to automatically fail. If you fail the reflex save, you are never in the forming area of the spell. 2) No other wall is prevented from forming by Spell Resistance. The only other wall which allows Spell Resistance, Wall of Fire, simply causes no damage to the target the roll failed against. This is settled with the rules on SR and area effects, in that the spell still takes normal effect on everyone else and still effects the same area.
Ace_of_time 10-02-07, 01:34 PM	Aren't walls line of effects? Not area of effects. I'll check.
Ace_of_time 10-02-07, 02:19 PM	This is the only thing I could find. Hope this helps. When Spell Resistance Applies Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does: Targeted Spells: Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately. Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.Effect Spells: Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web. Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell. Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds. If the creature has voluntarily lowered its spell resistance and is then subjected to a spell, the creature still has a single chance to resist that spell later, when its spell resistance is up. Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected. Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature. Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast. When in doubt about whether a spell’s effect is direct or indirect, consider the spell’s school: Abjuration: The target creature must be harmed, changed, or restricted in some manner for spell resistance to apply. Perception changes aren’t subject to spell resistance. Abjurations that block or negate attacks are not subject to an attacker’s spell resistance—it is the protected creature that is affected by the spell (becoming immune or resistant to the attack). Conjuration: These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance. Divination: These spells do not affect creatures directly and are not subject to spell resistance, even though what they reveal about a creature might be very damaging. Enchantment: Since enchantment spells affect creatures’ minds, they are typically subject to spell resistance. Evocation: If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect. Illusion: These spells are almost never subject to spell resistance. Illusions that entail a direct attack are exceptions. Necromancy: Most of these spells alter the target creature’s life force and are subject to spell resistance. Unusual necromancy spells that don’t affect other creatures directly are not subject to spell resistance. Transmutation: These spells are subject to spell resistance if they transform the target creature. Transmutation spells are not subject to spell resistance if they are targeted on a point in space instead of on a creature. Some transmutations make objects harmful (or more harmful), such as magic stone. Even these spells are not generally subject to spell resistance because they affect the objects, not the creatures against which the objects are used. Spell resistance works against magic stone only if the creature with spell resistance is holding the stones when the cleric casts magic stone on them. Successful Spell Resistance Spell resistance prevents a spell or a spell-like ability from affecting or harming the resistant creature, but it never removes a magical effect from another creature or negates a spell’s effect on another creature. Spell resistance prevents a spell from disrupting another spell. Against an ongoing spell that has already been cast, a failed check against spell resistance allows the resistant creature to ignore any effect the spell might have. The magic continues to affect others normally. If you count the spell as an area spell then the spell just would effect the square the PC was in or the wall would stop forming at that square. That doesn't make much sense but what ever. I still can't find anywhere where it says it only applies to the damage from the walls. If some can post that for me. Thanks. I understand what the ref saves does and understand your point that if he failed the save then the wall formed before he could enter the square. I alway saw it as the person trying to enter the sqaure and failing the save gets pushed back by the spell effect. (there for in the spell area before forming) After the wall is formed SR shouldn't apply. (according to the above entry.) So to me the ref save stop the wall from forming but the SR would let the wall form in the square that the PC try to disrupt the spell in. So the PC thgis was about having failed the save didn't get the wall to stop forming but if the thing missed it's caster level check against the SR would have left a space where the PC tryed to disrupt the spell. I'm glad my Players don't use these spells.
heffroncm 10-02-07, 03:05 PM	Aren't walls line of effects? Not area of effects. I'll check. The point is, the only other wall that allows SR is Wall of Fire, an damage per turn type spell. SR for those spells DOES NOT dispel or cancel the spell being cast, it simply makes the person immune to the spell's effects for the duration.
Ace_of_time 10-02-07, 07:09 PM	As I said I understand what your saying. Just don't where it says what your saying in the rules. Even under wall of firer entry it doesn't say just on damage. Wall of Fire Evocation [Fire] Level: Drd 5, Fire 4, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: Opaque sheet of flame up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of fire with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form 20 ft. high Duration: Concentration + 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes An immobile, blazing curtain of shimmering violet fire springs into existence. One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures. If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. If any 5-foot length of wall takes 20 points of cold damage or more in 1 round, that length goes out. (Do not divide cold damage by 4, as normal for objects.) Wall of fire can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent wall of fire that is extinguished by cold damage becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then reforms at normal strength. Arcane Material Component: A small piece of phosphorus. Not arguing just wanted to know where you are getting that from? I put in bold above the parts I was talking about. That should help clear things up. Post #27
heffroncm 10-02-07, 09:29 PM	As to why Wall of Ice casting doesn't effect SR: Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected. Evocation If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect. The casting of the spell does not cause any direct harm. I used Area of Effect not to say that it effects a smooth radius, but to say that it effects more than one square or target. If you read the SR description, SR never ends or dispells a spell effect, or prevents a spell from being cast or happening. The only thing SR does it prevent the effects of a spell from applying to a single creature. In the case of single-target spells, this doesn't really matter. If they spell has no effect on the only target it was going to effect, it may as well have never happened. On the other hand, anything that effects a specific area does not "go away" just because the caster failed their Spell Resistance roll.
Jhulae 10-03-07, 02:35 AM	In case of the wall spells quoted (Ice and Fire), and based upon the rules for SR: SR doesn't prevent the spell from being cast nor for the wall from forming. It does, however, possibly prevent the damage aspects of those spells from applying to the character with SR, if SR isn't overcome by the caster.
Ace_of_time 10-03-07, 06:05 AM	As to why Wall of Ice casting doesn't effect SR: The casting of the spell does not cause any direct harm. I used Area of Effect not to say that it effects a smooth radius, but to say that it effects more than one square or target. If you read the SR description, SR never ends or dispells a spell effect, or prevents a spell from being cast or happening. The only thing SR does it prevent the effects of a spell from applying to a single creature. In the case of single-target spells, this doesn't really matter. If they spell has no effect on the only target it was going to effect, it may as well have never happened. On the other hand, anything that effects a specific area does not "go away" just because the caster failed their Spell Resistance roll. But It says here In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately. Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself And also this Magic actually has to be working for spell resistance to apply. Spells that have instantaneous durations but lasting results aren’t subject to spell resistance unless the resistant creature is exposed to the spell the instant it is cast. These mean that the ref save let the PC be exposed to the spell when it is cast and that only the part of the spell area the PC was exposed to would be subject to the SR of the PC. If the thing missed It's caster level check only that part of the spell would not form (take effect in the area that the PC was exposed in) but would still take effect normally in the rest of the squares. The above Quote says that all the PC has to do is be exposed to the spell. So he/she wouldn't have make his save, just be exposed to the save during casting which they are with the save. Again not saying it would stop the spell all together just in the square he try the ref save in. Also note that the circle form of the spell has no damage only the plane form.
heffroncm 10-03-07, 12:44 PM	These mean that the ref save let the PC be exposed to the spell when it is cast and that only the part of the spell area the PC was exposed to would be subject to the SR of the PC. If the thing missed It's caster level check only that part of the spell would not form (take effect in the area that the PC was exposed in) but would still take effect normally in the rest of the squares. The above Quote says that all the PC has to do is be exposed to the spell. So he/she wouldn't have make his save, just be exposed to the save during casting which they are with the save. Again not saying it would stop the spell all together just in the square he try the ref save in. Also note that the circle form of the spell has no damage only the plane form. The point is, the spell has no direct effect on the PC until you get to the damage portion of the spell. The reflex save is an attempt to interpose your body into the forming wall, which prevents the entire wall from forming. If you fail, then you don't get there to interpose your body, and the spell has no direct effect while being cast.
Ace_of_time 10-03-07, 06:37 PM	Hey, I'm not fighting about this. If your the DM do it the way that makes sense. But the entry says exposed to the spell during casting and the ref save is while the caster is casting. As far as I know the spell is one stanard action so the spell would form as it was being cast and only takes 1 standard action to form meaning that the save has to be made during casting not after, By then the wall would have already be formed. Like I said my players don't use this spell and i try to stay away from them my self. Note: Trapping a PC in a wall of ice being a non direct spell would be thje DMs call.
heffroncm 10-03-07, 07:22 PM	The point I'm getting at is you can't trap someone in a wall of ice. The wall can never form in the same square as a creature. If you're adjacent to where the spell is forming, you get a Reflex save to try to mess with it, I.E. stick yourself in the way so it won't form. If you aren't right next to where the wall is forming, even if it's forming in a hemisphere around you, you don't even get the save.
Jhulae 10-03-07, 10:14 PM	The point I'm getting at is you can't trap someone in a wall of ice. The wall can never form in the same square as a creature. If you're adjacent to where the spell is forming, you get a Reflex save to try to mess with it, I.E. stick yourself in the way so it won't form. If you aren't right next to where the wall is forming, even if it's forming in a hemisphere around you, you don't even get the save. And, if you're inside the dome and have SR, the caster has to overcome your SR in order for you to take the cold damage.
heffroncm 10-03-07, 10:54 PM	And, if you're inside the dome and have SR, the caster has to overcome your SR in order for you to take the cold damage. When used as a dome, it never does damage. I freely admit that the damage portion of the spell recquires an caster level check against SR. I do not agree that SR should be applied in a fashion that would stop the spell from forming.
Jhulae 10-04-07, 08:29 AM	When used as a dome, it never does damage. I freely admit that the damage portion of the spell recquires an caster level check against SR. I do not agree that SR should be applied in a fashion that would stop the spell from forming. I concur. Because for SR to apply to the wall forming, the being with SR would have to be standing where the wall will be, which as we know, automatically prevents the spell from completing.
meabolex 10-04-07, 09:18 AM	I agree the reflex save is a special case in the creation of the wall. The damage component is the only part of the spell that gets spell resistance.
Ace_of_time 10-04-07, 11:41 AM	I'm not saying the whole spell wouldn't form just the space where the where the PC was trying the ref save. To me it is like it is hard to get form spell in the spot where the person with SR was trying the Ref save and hince why the caster level for SR during the time when he is trying to disrupt the wall. To be clear the dome would stil form like the reg spell effect said but if miss SR there would be a space missing in the dome where the caster couldn't force the spell to form.
heffroncm 10-04-07, 12:06 PM	I'm not saying the whole spell wouldn't form just the space where the where the PC was trying the ref save. To me it is like it is hard to get form spell in the spot where the person with SR was trying the Ref save and hince why the caster level for SR during the time when he is trying to disrupt the wall. To be clear the dome would stil form like the reg spell effect said but if miss SR there would be a space missing in the dome where the caster couldn't force the spell to form. But the spell never forms in a space that contains a creature! This is like saying that SR should stop spells within 5 feet of you. If the creature fails the reflex save, they are never in the area of the forming spell, they are just adjacent to it. Should SR disrupt a Wall of Fire that is forming next to you? How about a Cure Light Wounds targeted next to you?
Ace_of_time 10-04-07, 06:56 PM	But the spell never forms in a space that contains a creature! This is like saying that SR should stop spells within 5 feet of you. If the creature fails the reflex save, they are never in the area of the forming spell, they are just adjacent to it. Should SR disrupt a Wall of Fire that is forming next to you? How about a Cure Light Wounds targeted next to you? This would be a special case. The save lets the PC interact with the spell 5' in front of him. If he makes the save it disrupts the spell (because he is moved into the spell area) and if he misses the save it doesn't (but was still exposed to the spell making it harder to cast). He doesn't have to be in the spell area to inter act with the spell. Even if he missed his save he still interacted with the spell and SR just says exposed to, not just in the spell area and not just on damage only.
heffroncm 10-04-07, 11:15 PM	This would be a special case. The save lets the PC interact with the spell 5' in front of him. If he makes the save it disrupts the spell (because he is moved into the spell area) and if he misses the save it doesn't (but was still exposed to the spell making it harder to cast). He doesn't have to be in the spell area to inter act with the spell. Even if he missed his save he still interacted with the spell and SR just says exposed to, not just in the spell area and not just on damage only. SR applies when you are exposed in such a way that a spell has a direct effect on the target. Wall of Ice has no such direct effect. Creating an obstacle is not a direct effect, or Wall of Force, Wall of Iron, and Wall of Stone would all force caster level checks.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 07:42 AM	Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature’s mind or body. If the spell acts on anything else and the creature is affected as a consequence, no roll is required. Creatures can be harmed by a spell without being directly affected. Spell resistance does not apply if an effect fools the creature’s senses or reveals something about the creature It says "affected as a consequence". That is not the same as a PC interacting directly with the spell. Indirect effect would be if the PC fall into a reseting pit trap door and you formed the dome over the trap door and it fall on the PC. Th PC interacts with the spell energy directly during the save that's why the give it for. You can't say that he indirectly cause your wall of ice not to form by moving into the spell area.
heffroncm 10-05-07, 09:36 AM	It says "affected as a consequence". That is not the same as a PC interacting directly with the spell. Indirect effect would be if the PC fall into a reseting pit trap door and you formed the dome over the trap door and it fall on the PC. Th PC interacts with the spell energy directly during the save that's why the give it for. You can't say that he indirectly cause your wall of ice not to form by moving into the spell area. That is precisely the point I'm trying to make. The saving throw is what decides it. Spell Resistance cannot apply, as there are only two options: 1) He fails his save, does not manage to interfere with the spell, and therefor was never actually in the area of the spell. The spell has no direct effect on someone who is adjacent and not in the area of the spell. 2) He makes his save. He interferes with the spell, putting himself in the area. The entire wall fails to form, no need to roll Spell Resistance. Even if you were to roll Spell Resistance, it would only negate the direct effects of the spell. Nothing would change on a Spell Resistance roll with the forming of the wall, as SR has no effect on any part of the spell except that which directly effects you.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 11:26 AM	Wall of Ice Evocation [Cold] Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: Anchored plane of ice, up to one 10-ft. square/level, or hemisphere of ice with a radius of up to 3 ft. + 1 ft./level Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Reflex negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell creates an anchored plane of ice or a hemisphere of ice, depending on the version selected. A wall of ice cannot form in an area occupied by physical objects or creatures. Its surface must be smooth and unbroken when created. Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. Fire can melt a wall of ice, and it deals full damage to the wall (instead of the normal half damage taken by objects). Suddenly melting a wall of ice creates a great cloud of steamy fog that lasts for 10 minutes. Ice Plane: A sheet of strong, hard ice appears. The wall is 1 inch thick per caster level. It covers up to a 10-foot-square area per caster level (so a 10th-level wizard can create a wall of ice 100 feet long and 10 feet high, a wall 50 feet long and 20 feet high, or some other combination of length and height that does not exceed 1,000 square feet). The plane can be oriented in any fashion as long as it is anchored. A vertical wall need only be anchored on the floor, while a horizontal or slanting wall must be anchored on two opposite sides. Each 10-foot square of wall has 3 hit points per inch of thickness. Creatures can hit the wall automatically. A section of wall whose hit points drop to 0 is breached. If a creature tries to break through the wall with a single attack, the DC for the Strength check is 15 + caster level. Even when the ice has been broken through, a sheet of frigid air remains. Any creature stepping through it (including the one who broke through the wall) takes 1d6 points of cold damage +1 point per caster level (no save). Hemisphere: The wall takes the form of a hemisphere whose maximum radius is 3 feet + 1 foot per caster level. The hemisphere is as hard to break through as the ice plane form, but it does not deal damage to those who go through a breach. Material Component: A small piece of quartz or similar rock crystal. The spell says this"Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. which means the saves lets all adjacent interact with the spell. And that if they make their save the spell fails. It doesn't say they have to make their save to interact with the spell. When they decide to do the save they expose them self to the spells energy and SR applies normally.
heffroncm 10-05-07, 01:03 PM	The spell says this"Any creature adjacent to the wall when it is created may attempt a Reflex save to disrupt the wall as it is being formed. A successful save indicates that the spell automatically fails. which means the saves lets all adjacent interact with the spell. And that if they make their save the spell fails. It doesn't say they have to make their save to interact with the spell. When they decide to do the save they expose them self to the spells energy and SR applies normally. And that is the part we disagree on. You are saying that, even if they do not manage to interfere with the spell, they are still being subjected to the spells energy. I am saying that the Reflex save is a check to see if they can get into the area, and if they can't, then they are never affected by the spell energy. Either way, a failed caster level check would not stop the wall from forming. There is no direct effect on a creature in the square next to the wall forming. It would indeed stop all direct effects of the spell from effecting the creature with SR, but a wall forming a few feet away is not a direct effect.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 02:13 PM	And that's the problem I'm having because It just doesn't say that anywhere. That is the DM's interpretation and what the spell entry says. SR says expose, not that they have to interfere. And when they do the reflex they are exposed to the spell energy and SR does apply. It says it in RAW. It doesn't matter if the save good or miss. SR would be roll first then the save. If the SR was a miss and he didn't save then the spell forms as it should with a space missing where the PC tried the save at. If you want it to work different that your call. But it doesn't say that in the rules.
heffroncm 10-05-07, 03:34 PM	And that's the problem I'm having because It just doesn't say that anywhere. That is the DM's interpretation and what the spell entry says. SR says expose, not that they have to interfere. And when they do the reflex they are exposed to the spell energy and SR does apply. It says it in RAW. It doesn't matter if the save good or miss. SR would be roll first then the save. If the SR was a miss and he didn't save then the spell forms as it should with a space missing where the PC tried the save at. If you want it to work different that your call. But it doesn't say that in the rules. That's why I went on to say the entire save debate was moot. Spell Resistance only protects against direct effects. The wall forming is not a direct effect. No matter the Spell Resistance roll, it won't stop the wall from forming.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 04:37 PM	How is it not a direct effect? Do it how you like the rule are clear! If SR did apply the spell won't have effected the square the PC was rolling the save for but would have for the rest. But being how there was no obstruction the rest of the wall would form as usual. House rule it if you want it your way.
heffroncm 10-05-07, 06:37 PM	How is it not a direct effect? Do it how you like the rule are clear! If SR did apply the spell won't have effected the square the PC was rolling the save for but would have for the rest. But being how there was no obstruction the rest of the wall would form as usual. House rule it if you want it your way. I disagree with your interpretation of the rules. I want to know how you think a wall forming a few feet away from you directly effects your body or mind.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 11:44 PM	1. That's why I said it would be DM's call. 2. The save give the PC direct effect to the spell. Your saying the end result doesn't direct effect on the PC and I'm saying that the PC save lets him have a exposes him directly to the spell energy. You keep hold to this direct effect thing. The rules allow SR for the spell. Nothing in the entry says it is just on damage and the spell hasn't been fix in the errata. Trapping a person in a wall of ice just seems very direct effect of the spell, But the save makes the spell have a direct effect on the PC. Doesn't matter if he missed it. The SR entry just says exposed to the spell energy. If you are going by this partEvocation: If an evocation spell deals damage to the creature, it has a direct effect. If the spell damages something else, it has an indirect effect.it is a rule of thumb for most spells not all of the of the Evocation school. Most Evocation spell are attack spell and this is just one special case. Note: that the rest of the walls spells are Conjuration: These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.Conjuration. In the end a DM can only use his best judgement.
heffroncm 10-06-07, 12:40 AM	Wall of Fire is Evocation. You're arguing both that the RAW backs you up and that this is an exception to RAW. Hopefully it'll be answered in the Rules Compendium.
Ace_of_time 10-06-07, 01:16 AM	Just like the acid energy one they showed online preview.;) If it was just on damage they really should have post in the entry like with pyrotechnics spell. There are alot of rule that have grey areas in them. Sometimes I just wish for a yes or no just once. I was typing about the other walls that you had posted about. Sorry I should have added that one with wall of ice but It realy doesn' work like ice one ether. I think wall of ice is the odd ball. I alwas go with if the spell entry says yes SR and the PC is exposed to the spell then SR is rolled. It's not going to hurt the story any and the player get a luck break and knows better next time. Not much fun trapped under ice. I only use the direct thing if say we are inside and I cast call lighting and it hits the roof causing the roof to come down. To me that is indirect effect. And anything that give the PC a direct contact the the spell or area, during casting, is direct. For me It would be harder to form the wall in the space where the save was given so I would make them roll SR and if they missed the spell doesn't form in that space. My point of the rules was about the SR being rolled. The forming thing is just a easy way of telling the players what happen with out three books and two online files. I would just tell them that the wall didn't form where they try the save at but still formed around them or if they made the caster check tell them they are trapped. I'll let WotC decide what really happens to the forming during SR roll with 4e.
PenderGrass 10-06-07, 05:33 PM	Can a reach weapon be used to disrupt the spell? If so then I wouldn't let SR apply. Because they wouldn't be in the spell area. I don't know if a reach weapon can be use for that save. I can't see why this wouldn't be the case, since any "physical object or creature" is all that is needed to disrupt the spell. Another matter would obviously be - if a person or creature had absolutely no experience with wall of ice, would they get the reflex save? Explain why a creature would even know that shoving themselves or a carried object into the forming area would stop the spell from completing - wouldn't a logical conclusion be - "if I shove my arm/sword/spear/whatever into that forming ice wall, it is going to be stuck."? :dragon: ****
Ace_of_time 10-06-07, 06:21 PM	The body of the person with SR wouldn't be touch or exposed to the spell energy. So if the reach weapon could be use this way the Sr wouldn't apply unless the PC was exposed to the spell. As tothe 2nd part of your post . I don't know. I don't make the rules for those things so I couldn't tell you why it is the way it is. Maybe you could rule on giving a knowledge check first.