Some AoO house rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Some AoO house rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prince_of_Parkness
08-18-07, 02:56 PM Some house rules me and my friend came up with:

1. Attacking with a weapon you aren't proficient with provokes an attack of opertunity.

Reasons for: in my opinion, it refelcts the general tone of the AoO system. It also wouldn't be too hard on PC's since they rarely (at least in my expirience) use weapons they arent profocient with

Reasons against: Since it probebly weill never have to be enforced, why bother? As a great fan of house rules i have discovered that the less the better, otherwise you can forget them in one fight only to remember them in another.

2. Casting a stilled and silenced spell doesnt provoke an AoO

Reasons for: It makes sense since you wouldn't really know if a wizard is casting a spell if they didn't move or speak.

Reasons against: Allowing a 10th level wizard to blast an adacent foe for 10d6fire damage without anyfear of wasting the spell or taking damage could seriosly overpower the class, even if they could only do it twice per day.

3. You may make an extra attack per round by provoke an AoO

Reasons for: Acuratly represents the idea of reckless fighting and would probably go down well with the barbarian fans.

Reasons against:Its quite complicated and can represent a serios advantage to a group of PC's fighting a single monster. For example, if the monster is flatfooted and doesnt have combat reflexes then that could be up to 3 extra attacks (fighter, rogue, cleric) in one round with no concequences whilst the monster will be hit hard if they tries the same.

Please tell me your own ideas on these house rules
Sildatorak
08-18-07, 04:08 PM I think your criticisms are a good starting place. The penalties for using a weapon without proficiency are already pretty hefty, and it comes up so rarely as to not be worth an extra house rule.

I think we differ about why spellcasting provokes an AoO, though. I think the AoO doesn't come from the foe knowing you're casting, but rather by dropping your guard slightly to concentrate on forming your spell. A dog probably has no concept of magic, but it will still get an AoO if a wizard fighting it decides to fire a magic missile without casting defensively.

I think the balance reason you've cited in the last rule is right on the money. I think that gaining an extra attack in exchange for provoking an AoO is probably worth a feat (or maybe as the culmination of a 2 or 3 feat change). It isn't the kind of thing I would want to give players as a free option.
Prince_of_Parkness
08-18-07, 04:33 PM I disagree that the penalties for using a weapon unproficiently are already very hefty. I dont think that a -4 penalty to hit acounts for the fact that the player has had no training with this weapon what so ever

The reason I made the rule about spellcasting was because someone mentioned that it was strange that a paralyzed wizard doesnt provoke an AoO but as soon as he casts a stilled and silenced spell they do, but your reason against it is entierly true

I think maybe you could modify the 3rd rule so that they can make an extra attack at a -10 penalty and by provoking an AoO which they are flatfooted against. Feat(s) could then be taken to lessen these penalties
bobothechimp
08-18-07, 05:05 PM The nonproficiency penalties are already enough to prevent people from using weapons they aren't proficient in unless they are forced to. This doesn't really do anything useful.

Casting a stilled and silent spell still has the wizard standing still, unable to protect himself for several seconds. This should still provoke an AoO.
Prince_of_Parkness
08-18-07, 05:12 PM The nonproficiency penalties are already enough to prevent people from using weapons they aren't proficient in unless they are forced to. This doesn't really do anything useful.

Or unless their high level. Fighters will generally shift more than 4 BAB imto damage, so a -4 starts to look pretty insignificant at higher levels
Kouk
08-18-07, 05:26 PM Or unless their high level. Fighters will generally shift more than 4 BAB imto damage, so a -4 starts to look pretty insignificant at higher levels

But still, it never comes up, so it is not worth trying to put into players' heads.

Provoking even on Stilled or Silent spells is partially for balance as you said, but also that they get a glazed look in their eye or whatever, that indicates they are doing something. With Psionics there is often no discernible cue that something is going on, but psionicists still provoke when they manifest a power.

The extra attack rule, I don't think you can salvage. It represents a clear advantage to the player in 99% of the fights. Most enemies can only make a single AoO, so even if they provoke, the enemy can't capitalize on it against 4-6 people and/or summoned creatures. This also favors the PC that has Combat Reflexes, because he will also get more attacks over time than the enemies that are making the "extra" attacks. Unless all your fights involve equal numbers of intelligent enemies, this is purely a buff to the player characters, who more often fight one or two big and strong enemies, or several small, weak and dumb enemies.
Merestil Haye
08-18-07, 05:56 PM 2. Casting a stilled and silenced spell doesnt provoke an AoO

Reasons for: It makes sense since you wouldn't really know if a wizard is casting a spell if they didn't move or speak.

Reasons against: Allowing a 10th level wizard to blast an adacent foe for 10d6fire damage without anyfear of wasting the spell or taking damage could seriosly overpower the class, even if they could only do it twice per day.Something not mentioned is that a creature using an SLA provokes an AoO, and SLAs have no verbal or somatic components. Indeed they have no components whatsoever unless the DM houserules some in.

If you rule that Stilled Silent spells provoke no AoO but leave SLAs untouched you'll open yourself to charges of inconsistencey; however if you abolish AoOs for SLAs you make every monster who relies on SLAs in combat stronger, and the players will grump.
Neutronium_Dragon
08-18-07, 09:17 PM > I dont think that a -4 penalty to hit acounts for the fact that the player has
> had no training with this weapon what so ever

Which means he's less likely to hit and do damage, not that he's constantly dropping his defenses while fighting with it.
Prince_of_Parkness
08-19-07, 07:56 AM Failed experiment, ill try better next time
Nom
08-19-07, 09:23 AM The reason I made the rule about spellcasting was because someone mentioned that it was strange that a paralyzed wizard doesnt provoke an AoO but as soon as he casts a stilled and silenced spell they doThe AoO rules are designed to simulate the effects of continual combat during turn based combat, and to penalise taking certain actions in melee. One key idea of D&D spellcasting is that "if you are damaged while casting, you might lose the spell". However, unless you expect everyone to use "attack if he casts a spell" readied actions all the time or you make all spells be 1 round or longer to cast then it basically becomes impossible to interrupt a spell. Thus AoOs for doing so in melee.

The paralyzed caster is simply a sufficiently bizarre edge case that it pushes the limits of the abstraction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prince_of_Parkness 08-18-07, 02:56 PM	Some house rules me and my friend came up with: 1. Attacking with a weapon you aren't proficient with provokes an attack of opertunity. Reasons for: in my opinion, it refelcts the general tone of the AoO system. It also wouldn't be too hard on PC's since they rarely (at least in my expirience) use weapons they arent profocient with Reasons against: Since it probebly weill never have to be enforced, why bother? As a great fan of house rules i have discovered that the less the better, otherwise you can forget them in one fight only to remember them in another. 2. Casting a stilled and silenced spell doesnt provoke an AoO Reasons for: It makes sense since you wouldn't really know if a wizard is casting a spell if they didn't move or speak. Reasons against: Allowing a 10th level wizard to blast an adacent foe for 10d6fire damage without anyfear of wasting the spell or taking damage could seriosly overpower the class, even if they could only do it twice per day. 3. You may make an extra attack per round by provoke an AoO Reasons for: Acuratly represents the idea of reckless fighting and would probably go down well with the barbarian fans. Reasons against:Its quite complicated and can represent a serios advantage to a group of PC's fighting a single monster. For example, if the monster is flatfooted and doesnt have combat reflexes then that could be up to 3 extra attacks (fighter, rogue, cleric) in one round with no concequences whilst the monster will be hit hard if they tries the same. Please tell me your own ideas on these house rules
Sildatorak 08-18-07, 04:08 PM	I think your criticisms are a good starting place. The penalties for using a weapon without proficiency are already pretty hefty, and it comes up so rarely as to not be worth an extra house rule. I think we differ about why spellcasting provokes an AoO, though. I think the AoO doesn't come from the foe knowing you're casting, but rather by dropping your guard slightly to concentrate on forming your spell. A dog probably has no concept of magic, but it will still get an AoO if a wizard fighting it decides to fire a magic missile without casting defensively. I think the balance reason you've cited in the last rule is right on the money. I think that gaining an extra attack in exchange for provoking an AoO is probably worth a feat (or maybe as the culmination of a 2 or 3 feat change). It isn't the kind of thing I would want to give players as a free option.
Prince_of_Parkness 08-18-07, 04:33 PM	I disagree that the penalties for using a weapon unproficiently are already very hefty. I dont think that a -4 penalty to hit acounts for the fact that the player has had no training with this weapon what so ever The reason I made the rule about spellcasting was because someone mentioned that it was strange that a paralyzed wizard doesnt provoke an AoO but as soon as he casts a stilled and silenced spell they do, but your reason against it is entierly true I think maybe you could modify the 3rd rule so that they can make an extra attack at a -10 penalty and by provoking an AoO which they are flatfooted against. Feat(s) could then be taken to lessen these penalties
bobothechimp 08-18-07, 05:05 PM	The nonproficiency penalties are already enough to prevent people from using weapons they aren't proficient in unless they are forced to. This doesn't really do anything useful. Casting a stilled and silent spell still has the wizard standing still, unable to protect himself for several seconds. This should still provoke an AoO.
Prince_of_Parkness 08-18-07, 05:12 PM	The nonproficiency penalties are already enough to prevent people from using weapons they aren't proficient in unless they are forced to. This doesn't really do anything useful. Or unless their high level. Fighters will generally shift more than 4 BAB imto damage, so a -4 starts to look pretty insignificant at higher levels
Kouk 08-18-07, 05:26 PM	Or unless their high level. Fighters will generally shift more than 4 BAB imto damage, so a -4 starts to look pretty insignificant at higher levels But still, it never comes up, so it is not worth trying to put into players' heads. Provoking even on Stilled or Silent spells is partially for balance as you said, but also that they get a glazed look in their eye or whatever, that indicates they are doing something. With Psionics there is often no discernible cue that something is going on, but psionicists still provoke when they manifest a power. The extra attack rule, I don't think you can salvage. It represents a clear advantage to the player in 99% of the fights. Most enemies can only make a single AoO, so even if they provoke, the enemy can't capitalize on it against 4-6 people and/or summoned creatures. This also favors the PC that has Combat Reflexes, because he will also get more attacks over time than the enemies that are making the "extra" attacks. Unless all your fights involve equal numbers of intelligent enemies, this is purely a buff to the player characters, who more often fight one or two big and strong enemies, or several small, weak and dumb enemies.
Merestil Haye 08-18-07, 05:56 PM	2. Casting a stilled and silenced spell doesnt provoke an AoO Reasons for: It makes sense since you wouldn't really know if a wizard is casting a spell if they didn't move or speak. Reasons against: Allowing a 10th level wizard to blast an adacent foe for 10d6fire damage without anyfear of wasting the spell or taking damage could seriosly overpower the class, even if they could only do it twice per day.Something not mentioned is that a creature using an SLA provokes an AoO, and SLAs have no verbal or somatic components. Indeed they have no components whatsoever unless the DM houserules some in. If you rule that Stilled Silent spells provoke no AoO but leave SLAs untouched you'll open yourself to charges of inconsistencey; however if you abolish AoOs for SLAs you make every monster who relies on SLAs in combat stronger, and the players will grump.
Neutronium_Dragon 08-18-07, 09:17 PM	> I dont think that a -4 penalty to hit acounts for the fact that the player has > had no training with this weapon what so ever Which means he's less likely to hit and do damage, not that he's constantly dropping his defenses while fighting with it.
Prince_of_Parkness 08-19-07, 07:56 AM	Failed experiment, ill try better next time
Nom 08-19-07, 09:23 AM	The reason I made the rule about spellcasting was because someone mentioned that it was strange that a paralyzed wizard doesnt provoke an AoO but as soon as he casts a stilled and silenced spell they doThe AoO rules are designed to simulate the effects of continual combat during turn based combat, and to penalise taking certain actions in melee. One key idea of D&D spellcasting is that "if you are damaged while casting, you might lose the spell". However, unless you expect everyone to use "attack if he casts a spell" readied actions all the time or you make all spells be 1 round or longer to cast then it basically becomes impossible to interrupt a spell. Thus AoOs for doing so in melee. The paralyzed caster is simply a sufficiently bizarre edge case that it pushes the limits of the abstraction.