Specifics of Turn Resistance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Specifics of Turn Resistance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
04-12-08, 03:34 PM I have a few questions about turn resistance.

If a 20th level evil cleric commands a 6 HD vampire (which has +4 turn resistance), how many hit dice towards his hit die limit does the vampire count? 6 or 10?
If that same cleric then bolsters undead (raising their effective hit dice against turning), does the vampire count as more hit dice towards the clerics total?
If an undead creature has an elemental type and turn resistance, does the turn resistance protect it from elemental turning, or only undead turning?
Can an Azer benefit from an item granting turn resistance to avoid being turned/rebuked by a cleric with elemental turning?
Kouk
04-13-08, 05:54 PM Turn Resistance

Some creatures (usually undead) are less easily affected by the turning ability of clerics or paladins.

Turn resistance is an extraordinary ability.

When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, added the appropriate bonus to the creature’s Hit Dice total.

Or, see page 317 of the Monster Manual for an example.
tos_shai_hulud
04-13-08, 06:25 PM Or, see page 317 of the Monster Manual for an example.

Thank you, that answers question 3, but any ideas on questions 1 and 2?
calronmoonflower
04-13-08, 06:37 PM 1). It counts at 10 hit die.

2). The same.
Kouk
04-13-08, 06:38 PM If it is a Turn, Rebuke, Command, or Bolster, then creatures count as if they had higher HD if they have Turn Resistance.
tos_shai_hulud
04-15-08, 02:05 AM If it is a Turn, Rebuke, Command, or Bolster, then creatures count as if they had higher HD if they have Turn Resistance.

Kouk, this is understood. The issue is not whether the cleric could command the vampire, the question is whether Turn Resistance continues to matter after the vampire has been commanded. Notice in the rules where it says, "When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, add the appropriate bonus to the creature’s Hit Dice total." (Emphasis mine)

Does that mean that after the command is resolved, you no longer add the appropriate bonus to the creature's Hit Dice total, or do you continue adding it as long as the creature remains commanded? It would seem that the Rules as Written (RAW) would disagree with calronmoonflower's assessment, but perhaps the Rules as Intended (RAI) would rule that way in favor of balance. This is what I am asking.

Thank you calronmoonflower for your opinion on the subject. I think I might rule the same way, but I would like some other opinions.
Kouk
04-15-08, 10:13 AM I believe it means it lasts the entire length of time you are influencing the creature. Forever treat it as a 10HD creature, it is harder to control or influence creatures with Turn Resistance.
tos_shai_hulud
04-15-08, 04:03 PM I believe it means it lasts the entire length of time you are influencing the creature. Forever treat it as a 10HD creature, it is harder to control or influence creatures with Turn Resistance.

But that really is the question. Command is permanent. Once a creature is commanded, are you still influencing it? It seems you have already completed the influencing, now it is "influenced". I still agree that it should be treated as a 10 HD creature, but the rules certainly don't spell that out.

Edit: Example--A 12th level Evil cleric with the Improved Turning feat wears a Phylactery of Undead Rebuking (variant on the Phylactery of Undead Turning) and holds a Scepter of the Netherworld. His rebuking is treated as though it were by a 20th level cleric. He faces a 6th level vampire (effective 10 HD because of turn resistance) and performs a rebuking. Because his effective cleric level is twice the vampire's hit dice, the vampire is commanded. Next, the cleric's phylactery and scepter are stolen and he is now back to an effective 13th level cleric (whether the vampire is treated as 6 HD or 10 doesn't matter, he is still under the cleric's maximum), and now he has a vampire that a character of his level would not ordinarily be able to command, but he is still commanded! The influence is over. The vampire is now "influenced". Since you are no longer resolving the command, it has already been resolved, do you treat the vampire's hit dice as 6 or 10 towards your total hit dice controlled? For balance, 10, by the rules, who knows?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-12-08, 03:34 PM	I have a few questions about turn resistance. If a 20th level evil cleric commands a 6 HD vampire (which has +4 turn resistance), how many hit dice towards his hit die limit does the vampire count? 6 or 10? If that same cleric then bolsters undead (raising their effective hit dice against turning), does the vampire count as more hit dice towards the clerics total? If an undead creature has an elemental type and turn resistance, does the turn resistance protect it from elemental turning, or only undead turning? Can an Azer benefit from an item granting turn resistance to avoid being turned/rebuked by a cleric with elemental turning?
Kouk 04-13-08, 05:54 PM	Turn Resistance Some creatures (usually undead) are less easily affected by the turning ability of clerics or paladins. Turn resistance is an extraordinary ability. When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, added the appropriate bonus to the creature’s Hit Dice total. Or, see page 317 of the Monster Manual for an example.
tos_shai_hulud 04-13-08, 06:25 PM	Or, see page 317 of the Monster Manual for an example. Thank you, that answers question 3, but any ideas on questions 1 and 2?
calronmoonflower 04-13-08, 06:37 PM	1). It counts at 10 hit die. 2). The same.
Kouk 04-13-08, 06:38 PM	If it is a Turn, Rebuke, Command, or Bolster, then creatures count as if they had higher HD if they have Turn Resistance.
tos_shai_hulud 04-15-08, 02:05 AM	If it is a Turn, Rebuke, Command, or Bolster, then creatures count as if they had higher HD if they have Turn Resistance. Kouk, this is understood. The issue is not whether the cleric could command the vampire, the question is whether Turn Resistance continues to matter after the vampire has been commanded. Notice in the rules where it says, "When resolving a turn, rebuke, command, or bolster attempt, add the appropriate bonus to the creature’s Hit Dice total." (Emphasis mine) Does that mean that after the command is resolved, you no longer add the appropriate bonus to the creature's Hit Dice total, or do you continue adding it as long as the creature remains commanded? It would seem that the Rules as Written (RAW) would disagree with calronmoonflower's assessment, but perhaps the Rules as Intended (RAI) would rule that way in favor of balance. This is what I am asking. Thank you calronmoonflower for your opinion on the subject. I think I might rule the same way, but I would like some other opinions.
Kouk 04-15-08, 10:13 AM	I believe it means it lasts the entire length of time you are influencing the creature. Forever treat it as a 10HD creature, it is harder to control or influence creatures with Turn Resistance.
tos_shai_hulud 04-15-08, 04:03 PM	I believe it means it lasts the entire length of time you are influencing the creature. Forever treat it as a 10HD creature, it is harder to control or influence creatures with Turn Resistance. But that really is the question. Command is permanent. Once a creature is commanded, are you still influencing it? It seems you have already completed the influencing, now it is "influenced". I still agree that it should be treated as a 10 HD creature, but the rules certainly don't spell that out. Edit: Example--A 12th level Evil cleric with the Improved Turning feat wears a Phylactery of Undead Rebuking (variant on the Phylactery of Undead Turning) and holds a Scepter of the Netherworld. His rebuking is treated as though it were by a 20th level cleric. He faces a 6th level vampire (effective 10 HD because of turn resistance) and performs a rebuking. Because his effective cleric level is twice the vampire's hit dice, the vampire is commanded. Next, the cleric's phylactery and scepter are stolen and he is now back to an effective 13th level cleric (whether the vampire is treated as 6 HD or 10 doesn't matter, he is still under the cleric's maximum), and now he has a vampire that a character of his level would not ordinarily be able to command, but he is still commanded! The influence is over. The vampire is now "influenced". Since you are no longer resolving the command, it has already been resolved, do you treat the vampire's hit dice as 6 or 10 towards your total hit dice controlled? For balance, 10, by the rules, who knows?