Spectral Hand and Invisibility [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spectral Hand and Invisibility [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
daytripper
09-18-07, 10:35 AM Does the casting of spectral hand cause an invisible caster to become visible? How about when using the spectral hand to deliver a shocking grasp?

I ruled that casting spectral hand did not cancel invisibility but that the subsequent casting of shocking grasp, even though it was delivered by the spectral hand, caused the caster to become visible.

Are there any rules-based arguments that I'm incorrect?

Thanks in advance for your devilish advocacy.

-T
perdera
09-18-07, 11:31 AM It's not the casting of Shocking Grasp that should make you visible, but the performing of an attack with Shocking Grasp. After all, you could always cast it and hold the charge in your hand, or spectral hand. You're still invisible until you deliver the spell on an attack.
Puca
09-18-07, 11:41 AM Casting Spectral Hand is not an attack.
Shocking Grasp is an attack (not the casting but the use as perdera said). You make an attack roll and it does damage?

I see how one could view it as indirectly causing damage, analogous to summoning a monster who then attacks, but in the case of Spectral Hand, you are still the one making the attack. It would end the invisibility.
daytripper
09-18-07, 03:10 PM Good caveat perdera. Thanks to both!
Lazigothi
09-19-07, 12:27 PM Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object)

The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.

Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.

Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm)
1 ton ghost
09-20-07, 11:55 PM conflicting really...

normally, no, it's an attack and poof! you're visible...

however, for bowing out of 2 rnds of combat (the 1st 2 are usually the worst) and burning 2 spells perhaps there is some merit there.
physically speaking, the hand is directing said nastiness, not you (physically).
...but you are the conduit for the magic/Weave/mojo/etc. so the intent is to hurt and inflict damage, but Spectral Hand is quite literally "an extension of your life force". think you take a bit of dmg. from it's manifestation while it's in play. so, by that interpretation, it really is you...a very small bit via remote control, but you nonetheless.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
daytripper 09-18-07, 10:35 AM	Does the casting of spectral hand cause an invisible caster to become visible? How about when using the spectral hand to deliver a shocking grasp? I ruled that casting spectral hand did not cancel invisibility but that the subsequent casting of shocking grasp, even though it was delivered by the spectral hand, caused the caster to become visible. Are there any rules-based arguments that I'm incorrect? Thanks in advance for your devilish advocacy. -T
perdera 09-18-07, 11:31 AM	It's not the casting of Shocking Grasp that should make you visible, but the performing of an attack with Shocking Grasp. After all, you could always cast it and hold the charge in your hand, or spectral hand. You're still invisible until you deliver the spell on an attack.
Puca 09-18-07, 11:41 AM	Casting Spectral Hand is not an attack. Shocking Grasp is an attack (not the casting but the use as perdera said). You make an attack roll and it does damage? I see how one could view it as indirectly causing damage, analogous to summoning a monster who then attacks, but in the case of Spectral Hand, you are still the one making the attack. It would end the invisibility.
daytripper 09-18-07, 03:10 PM	Good caveat perdera. Thanks to both!
Lazigothi 09-19-07, 12:27 PM	Invisibility Illusion (Glamer) Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object) The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so. Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm)
1 ton ghost 09-20-07, 11:55 PM	conflicting really... normally, no, it's an attack and poof! you're visible... however, for bowing out of 2 rnds of combat (the 1st 2 are usually the worst) and burning 2 spells perhaps there is some merit there. physically speaking, the hand is directing said nastiness, not you (physically). ...but you are the conduit for the magic/Weave/mojo/etc. so the intent is to hurt and inflict damage, but Spectral Hand is quite literally "an extension of your life force". think you take a bit of dmg. from it's manifestation while it's in play. so, by that interpretation, it really is you...a very small bit via remote control, but you nonetheless.