Spell Resistance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell Resistance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BillTheManiac
09-28-07, 08:02 PM Can you choose to fail a caster level check to penetrate SR? This is important with are of effect spells.
PenderGrass
09-28-07, 08:36 PM Yes and no.

Yes, you can lower your caster level where it might not be effective vs. the SR in question (as per the SRD):

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
No, you can't choose to just not roll a caster level check with regards to SR.

:dragon:
****
PenderGrass
09-28-07, 08:40 PM PS - I assume this is being attempted by your group so that they can cast a fireball (or some such) into a crowd that includes a friendly with SR?

:dragon:
****
weasel0
09-29-07, 12:32 AM But the friendly with SR can choose to suppress it's SR. :P
BillTheManiac
09-29-07, 09:48 AM PS - I assume this is being attempted by your group so that they can cast a fireball (or some such) into a crowd that includes a friendly with SR?

:dragon:
****

Actually it's me doing it. :mage: :mage: :mage:
Jhulae
10-03-07, 02:21 AM Actually it's me doing it. :mage: :mage: :mage:

Am I correct in that your character has SR and wants to do something similar to standing in a group of enemies and casting a spell like fireball or whatnot and 'fail' your SR check so you don't effect yourself?

If that's the case, here's a relavent quote from the SR section:

A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities.

If it never interferes with a creature from 'helping' itself, such as with a cure spell, conversely it should also never interfere with a creature harming itself, such as being in the middle of a fireball its casting.
weasel0
10-03-07, 09:29 PM Actually, this would be the case of him fireballing a group of enemies, that has an ally with SR in the middle(or within the AoE at least).

He wants to auto-fail the castor lv check so he doesn't overcome his allies SR.
Jhulae
10-03-07, 10:07 PM Actually, this would be the case of him fireballing a group of enemies, that has an ally with SR in the middle(or within the AoE at least).

He wants to auto-fail the castor lv check so he doesn't overcome his allies SR.

Hmm. I can see the tactic, but I don't think that's possible. Otherwise, why not just say: I want to automatically make my caster level check to overcome the enemy's SR. Of course, see more of my thoughts below..

Even in acting (yes, RL example, but I think it fits), when one actor doesn't want to hurt another in a mock fight, sometimes they still end up getting hurt.

Overcoming SR (to me) represents some kind of mystical 'oomph' the spell possesses via the Caster's Inherent power (since it's not explained via any flavor text, really). If he wanted to lower his caster level, it's technically possible via the rules. However, that also affects things such as amount of damage dice and so forth, but it would also (I'd presume) lower caster level to overcome SR.
heffroncm
10-03-07, 10:53 PM If he wanted to lower his caster level, it's technically possible via the rules. However, that also affects things such as amount of damage dice and so forth, but it would also (I'd presume) lower caster level to overcome SR.

That'd work, but as you say, it's all or nothing. You're lowering your caster level for everything and everyone, not just your friend.
Prince_of_Parkness
10-05-07, 02:23 PM Hmm. I can see the tactic, but I don't think that's possible. Otherwise, why not just say: I want to automatically make my caster level check to overcome the enemy's SR.

No offense, but i dont think you thought that through. You can voluntarily fail any save, but that doesnt mean u cn voluntarily make one. That would be quite harsh on spell casters.

So would this be valid:
PCs are fighting guards each possessing a SR of 1. A friendly supering caster lobs fireballs all over the place, voluntarily failing any caster check to over come any spell resistance. Assuming none of the PCs have SR themselves, is this a fool proof way of targetting enemies only?
Ace_of_time
10-05-07, 02:49 PM I'm confused as to how lowing the spell caster level effect your caster level check for SR. Caster level checks are Your level plus bonuses. Didn't know you could lower it on that check? I'd allow you to fail but it would be all or nothing. You could raise his SR up first to a point which you couldn't overcome it then cast fireball. If he keeps it that high it will only help him. Or put fire immunity on his armor. Or make sure it's a rogue or monk and you wouldn't have to worry about the spell hitting them. Hope this helps.
weasel0
10-05-07, 02:52 PM You can auto-fail saves, but with checks, you can only get the minimum you could roll(caster Lv +1). So yes, you could auto-roll a 1, but what monster with SR doesn't have that or more anyway?
heffroncm
10-05-07, 03:36 PM I'm confused as to how lowing the spell caster level effect your caster level check for SR. Caster level checks are Your level plus bonuses. Didn't know you could lower it on that check?

Caster Level Checks for Spell Resistance is 1d20 + Caster Level. That means it takes into account all bonuses, all classes that add to that caster, and all penalties, even those self-imposed.
Ace_of_time
10-05-07, 04:43 PM Please post link to rules that says that.
weasel0
10-05-07, 05:05 PM CASTER LEVEL

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
There ya go.
Ace_of_time
10-05-07, 05:15 PM Caster level check and caster level of the spell aren't two different things? I assumed that when it said Caster level on SR it was talking about your full casting power not just what caster level the spell is cast at. The rules are unclear for which to use. That is why I was asking if he knew where it said that in the rules. Even that Quote makes it sound as if they are two different things.

So the question is if you lower the caster level of the spell does that change you caster level for a caster level check which ask for you full caster level?
heffroncm
10-05-07, 06:38 PM Caster level check and caster level of the spell aren't two different things? I assumed that when it said Caster level on SR it was talking about your full casting power not just what caster level the spell is cast at. The rules are unclear for which to use. That is why I was asking if he knew where it said that in the rules. Even that Quote makes it sound as if they are two different things.

So the question is if you lower the caster level of the spell does that change you caster level for a caster level check which ask for you full caster level?

Where does it ask for your full caster level? The quote provide says specifically that anything which changes Caster Level also changes the roll for Spell Resistance.
Ace_of_time
10-05-07, 11:21 PM But it doesn't say self imposed penalties. It also says "In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check)." which leads one to believe that the caster level for the spell is not the same as the one for the caster level check. Otherwise it would say to just use the caster level you used for the spell. But it just says to use the same modifiers as you do with the caster level for the spell. I just wanted to know if they are supposed to the same or different?

Note: Didn't think reducing your caster level counted as a type of Modifier or Adjustment and It's not a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability.
heffroncm
10-06-07, 12:38 AM Through the strictest definition of the words involed, you can read it as such. You can also read it, through a much more normal definitions, as Caster Level being the same as Caster Level.

All the questions on Spell Resistance will be answered definitively in 10 days when the Rules Compendium ships. Conversation is kind of moot until then.
Ace_of_time
10-06-07, 01:28 AM Sometimes I feel like I need to go to law school to read some of these rules. We can't read minds is what I'd like to tell them sometime's. A person shouldn't have to look in 10 different spots just to tell their players "yes you can do that". I really didn't know if it was the same or not. Think it's funny that we have to buy a book to tell us what the books we have were meant when they were written. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BillTheManiac 09-28-07, 08:02 PM	Can you choose to fail a caster level check to penetrate SR? This is important with are of effect spells.
PenderGrass 09-28-07, 08:36 PM	Yes and no. Yes, you can lower your caster level where it might not be effective vs. the SR in question (as per the SRD): You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check). No, you can't choose to just not roll a caster level check with regards to SR. :dragon: ****
PenderGrass 09-28-07, 08:40 PM	PS - I assume this is being attempted by your group so that they can cast a fireball (or some such) into a crowd that includes a friendly with SR? :dragon: ****
weasel0 09-29-07, 12:32 AM	But the friendly with SR can choose to suppress it's SR. :P
BillTheManiac 09-29-07, 09:48 AM	PS - I assume this is being attempted by your group so that they can cast a fireball (or some such) into a crowd that includes a friendly with SR? :dragon: **** Actually it's me doing it. :mage: :mage: :mage:
Jhulae 10-03-07, 02:21 AM	Actually it's me doing it. :mage: :mage: :mage: Am I correct in that your character has SR and wants to do something similar to standing in a group of enemies and casting a spell like fireball or whatnot and 'fail' your SR check so you don't effect yourself? If that's the case, here's a relavent quote from the SR section: A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. If it never interferes with a creature from 'helping' itself, such as with a cure spell, conversely it should also never interfere with a creature harming itself, such as being in the middle of a fireball its casting.
weasel0 10-03-07, 09:29 PM	Actually, this would be the case of him fireballing a group of enemies, that has an ally with SR in the middle(or within the AoE at least). He wants to auto-fail the castor lv check so he doesn't overcome his allies SR.
Jhulae 10-03-07, 10:07 PM	Actually, this would be the case of him fireballing a group of enemies, that has an ally with SR in the middle(or within the AoE at least). He wants to auto-fail the castor lv check so he doesn't overcome his allies SR. Hmm. I can see the tactic, but I don't think that's possible. Otherwise, why not just say: I want to automatically make my caster level check to overcome the enemy's SR. Of course, see more of my thoughts below.. Even in acting (yes, RL example, but I think it fits), when one actor doesn't want to hurt another in a mock fight, sometimes they still end up getting hurt. Overcoming SR (to me) represents some kind of mystical 'oomph' the spell possesses via the Caster's Inherent power (since it's not explained via any flavor text, really). If he wanted to lower his caster level, it's technically possible via the rules. However, that also affects things such as amount of damage dice and so forth, but it would also (I'd presume) lower caster level to overcome SR.
heffroncm 10-03-07, 10:53 PM	If he wanted to lower his caster level, it's technically possible via the rules. However, that also affects things such as amount of damage dice and so forth, but it would also (I'd presume) lower caster level to overcome SR. That'd work, but as you say, it's all or nothing. You're lowering your caster level for everything and everyone, not just your friend.
Prince_of_Parkness 10-05-07, 02:23 PM	Hmm. I can see the tactic, but I don't think that's possible. Otherwise, why not just say: I want to automatically make my caster level check to overcome the enemy's SR. No offense, but i dont think you thought that through. You can voluntarily fail any save, but that doesnt mean u cn voluntarily make one. That would be quite harsh on spell casters. So would this be valid: PCs are fighting guards each possessing a SR of 1. A friendly supering caster lobs fireballs all over the place, voluntarily failing any caster check to over come any spell resistance. Assuming none of the PCs have SR themselves, is this a fool proof way of targetting enemies only?
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 02:49 PM	I'm confused as to how lowing the spell caster level effect your caster level check for SR. Caster level checks are Your level plus bonuses. Didn't know you could lower it on that check? I'd allow you to fail but it would be all or nothing. You could raise his SR up first to a point which you couldn't overcome it then cast fireball. If he keeps it that high it will only help him. Or put fire immunity on his armor. Or make sure it's a rogue or monk and you wouldn't have to worry about the spell hitting them. Hope this helps.
weasel0 10-05-07, 02:52 PM	You can auto-fail saves, but with checks, you can only get the minimum you could roll(caster Lv +1). So yes, you could auto-roll a 1, but what monster with SR doesn't have that or more anyway?
heffroncm 10-05-07, 03:36 PM	I'm confused as to how lowing the spell caster level effect your caster level check for SR. Caster level checks are Your level plus bonuses. Didn't know you could lower it on that check? Caster Level Checks for Spell Resistance is 1d20 + Caster Level. That means it takes into account all bonuses, all classes that add to that caster, and all penalties, even those self-imposed.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 04:43 PM	Please post link to rules that says that.
weasel0 10-05-07, 05:05 PM	CASTER LEVEL A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell. You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check). There ya go.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 05:15 PM	Caster level check and caster level of the spell aren't two different things? I assumed that when it said Caster level on SR it was talking about your full casting power not just what caster level the spell is cast at. The rules are unclear for which to use. That is why I was asking if he knew where it said that in the rules. Even that Quote makes it sound as if they are two different things. So the question is if you lower the caster level of the spell does that change you caster level for a caster level check which ask for you full caster level?
heffroncm 10-05-07, 06:38 PM	Caster level check and caster level of the spell aren't two different things? I assumed that when it said Caster level on SR it was talking about your full casting power not just what caster level the spell is cast at. The rules are unclear for which to use. That is why I was asking if he knew where it said that in the rules. Even that Quote makes it sound as if they are two different things. So the question is if you lower the caster level of the spell does that change you caster level for a caster level check which ask for you full caster level? Where does it ask for your full caster level? The quote provide says specifically that anything which changes Caster Level also changes the roll for Spell Resistance.
Ace_of_time 10-05-07, 11:21 PM	But it doesn't say self imposed penalties. It also says "In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check)." which leads one to believe that the caster level for the spell is not the same as the one for the caster level check. Otherwise it would say to just use the caster level you used for the spell. But it just says to use the same modifiers as you do with the caster level for the spell. I just wanted to know if they are supposed to the same or different? Note: Didn't think reducing your caster level counted as a type of Modifier or Adjustment and It's not a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability.
heffroncm 10-06-07, 12:38 AM	Through the strictest definition of the words involed, you can read it as such. You can also read it, through a much more normal definitions, as Caster Level being the same as Caster Level. All the questions on Spell Resistance will be answered definitively in 10 days when the Rules Compendium ships. Conversation is kind of moot until then.
Ace_of_time 10-06-07, 01:28 AM	Sometimes I feel like I need to go to law school to read some of these rules. We can't read minds is what I'd like to tell them sometime's. A person shouldn't have to look in 10 different spots just to tell their players "yes you can do that". I really didn't know if it was the same or not. Think it's funny that we have to buy a book to tell us what the books we have were meant when they were written. :)