Spell Weaver, Chain Spell -> Arcane Reach -> Touch of Idiocy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spell Weaver, Chain Spell -> Arcane Reach -> Touch of Idiocy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sprack
07-15-07, 07:35 PM We're trying to determine whether the following build is legal. The question is whether an Archmage with Arcane Reach can Chain Spell the Touch of Idiocy/Vampiric Touch spell. Because while Chain Spell is restricted to non-touch spells, we think the Arcane Reach technically changes it to a ranged spell. I might be wrong though and therefore I'm looking for a 'professional' opinion.

If this question has been addressed in the past, I apologize.

So here's the build:

Spell Weaver
Medium Monstrous Humanoid

Hit Dice: 10d8+10d4 -20 (60 hp)

Initiative: +3

Speed: 30 ft.

AC: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15

BAB: +14

RTA: +17

Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells

Special Qualities: Chromatic disk, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to mind effects, shielded mind, spell weaving, SR 21, telepathy

Saves: Fort +2, Ref +10, Will +10

Abilities: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 9, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 19

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) +24, Knowledge (the planes) +24, Listen +23, Spellcraft +27, Spot +23, Use Magic Device +27, Concentration +22

Feats: Empower Spell, Chain Spell, Skill Focus (Spell Craft), Arcane Thesis (Touch of Idiocy), Arcane Thesis (Vampiric Touch), Arcane Thesis (Bestow Curse), Arcane Preparation, Easy Metamagic (Empower), Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell) x2

Climate/Terrain: Any land

Organization: Solitary or raid (3–6)

Challenge Rating: 20

Arcane Reach x2(Su): The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th level spell slot.

Mastery of Elements: The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. For example, an Archmage could cast a fireball that deals sonic damage instead of fire damage. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th level spell slot.

Mastery of Counterspelling: When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning (for example, if it is a spell that affects an area), then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th level spell slot.

Spell-Like Ability (Touch of Idiocy(Empowered/Chained) & Vampiric Touch (Empowered/Chained): An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot. The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level. For example, an archmage can make lightning bolt into a spell-like ability by using a 3rd-level spell slot to do so, or into a maximized lightning bolt by using a 6th-level spell slot. The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spelllike ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day. For example, Hexark, a 15th-level wizard/2nd-level archmage, is a pyromaniac and never wants to be denied the ability to cast fireball, so she permanently uses a 9th-level spell slot to get fireball as a spell-like ability usable six times per day. She forfeits a 5th-level spell slot to master the ability. If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.

The Gimmick:

Round 1:

Free Action – Chained/Empowered Touch of Idiocy (1d6+50% penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom & Charisma NO SAVE).

Spell 1, 2 & 3 Chained/Empowered Touch of Idiocy (can do these spells at 60’ range because of archmage)

This should give all players a 4d6+50% penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma….reducing all of them to a minimum of 1. You best bet is a 20th level spellcaster having a 31 stat at most (18 to start, 5 points of increases and +6 item bonus) Average penalty is 18

Round 2:

Free Action – Chained/Empowered Vampiric Touch (10d6+50% to any living creature. NO SAVE)

Spell 1 Chained/Empowered Touch of Idiocy (1d6+50% penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom & Charisma NO SAVE).

Spell 2 Chained/Empowered Bestow Curse (Will Save (if they are REALLY lucky) negates or –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.)

At this point, pretty much everyone is a gibbering useless waste of living space. The Spell Weaver had about 300 hit points (Chained Vampiric Touch does about 45 average damage, 4-6 party members) and he can use any spell he wishes to make their day worse at this point.

Adding 5 levels of Force Missile Mage and 5 levels of Archmage gives them 10d4 hit points, +4 BAB, +2/+2/+8 to saves, 60 more skill points, 3 more feats and 3 more stat points. (21st level caster)
runestar
07-15-07, 10:40 PM The problem with chained vampiric touch is that I do not think the multiple sources of temp hp you receive stack. As a general rule of thumb, temp hp from the same source overlaps, only temp hp from different sources stack.

Thus, in your case, even if chained vampiric touch could work and it managed to affect all your party members, the spell weaver would still only benefit from the highest temp hp drained from any 1 of all the PCs. You wouldn't add up all the damage and convert them to temp hp.
Anathema
07-15-07, 10:48 PM This one would really be up to the DM, but I would say no. Chain Spell is a metamagic feat, which applies when you memorize the spell. When you memorize the spell, the spell is a 'touch' range attack, and the Archmage's Arcane Reach ability does not change the actual spell .. it only allows you to cast a touch range spell at 30 feet.

I could see a DM allowing it, because even though it does not appear to be supported by the rules, I could see a legitimate line of reasoning supporting it.
Phrennzy
07-16-07, 12:40 PM We're trying to determine whether the following build is legal. The question is whether an Archmage with Arcane Reach can Chain Spell the Touch of Idiocy/Vampiric Touch spell. Because while Chain Spell is restricted to non-touch spells, we think the Arcane Reach technically changes it to a ranged spell. I might be wrong though and therefore I'm looking for a 'professional' opinion.

If Chain Spell cannot be applied to touch spells, then both of the spells are out because they are touch spells.

I'd need to read the Chain Spell feat to fully understand.
Edana
07-16-07, 01:15 PM The problem with chained vampiric touch is that I do not think the multiple sources of temp hp you receive stack. As a general rule of thumb, temp hp from the same source overlaps, only temp hp from different sources stack.

Thus, in your case, even if chained vampiric touch could work and it managed to affect all your party members, the spell weaver would still only benefit from the highest temp hp drained from any 1 of all the PCs. You wouldn't add up all the damage and convert them to temp hp.

In a similar vein, Touch of Idiocy applies a penalty, not damage, to the stats. Multiple castings on the same target overlap, they don't stack, and only the best (worst for the target) would apply.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
Anathema
07-16-07, 02:21 PM I'd need to read the Chain Spell feat to fully understand.

It's in the Complete Arcane, if you have it.

The feat applies to "Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch...".
Phrennzy
07-17-07, 09:50 AM It's in the Complete Arcane, if you have it.

The feat applies to "Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch...".

Don't have the book, but if that's what the feat says, then no, Arcane Reach doesn't change the range.

It's semantics, but if Arcane Reach says: "The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away." then the spell still has a range of touch, and so Chain Spell won't work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sprack 07-15-07, 07:35 PM	We're trying to determine whether the following build is legal. The question is whether an Archmage with Arcane Reach can Chain Spell the Touch of Idiocy/Vampiric Touch spell. Because while Chain Spell is restricted to non-touch spells, we think the Arcane Reach technically changes it to a ranged spell. I might be wrong though and therefore I'm looking for a 'professional' opinion. If this question has been addressed in the past, I apologize. So here's the build: Spell Weaver Medium Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice: 10d8+10d4 -20 (60 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft. AC: 18 (+3 Dex, +5 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15 BAB: +14 RTA: +17 Face/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells Special Qualities: Chromatic disk, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to mind effects, shielded mind, spell weaving, SR 21, telepathy Saves: Fort +2, Ref +10, Will +10 Abilities: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 9, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 19 Skills: Knowledge (arcana) +24, Knowledge (the planes) +24, Listen +23, Spellcraft +27, Spot +23, Use Magic Device +27, Concentration +22 Feats: Empower Spell, Chain Spell, Skill Focus (Spell Craft), Arcane Thesis (Touch of Idiocy), Arcane Thesis (Vampiric Touch), Arcane Thesis (Bestow Curse), Arcane Preparation, Easy Metamagic (Empower), Easy Metamagic (Chain Spell) x2 Climate/Terrain: Any land Organization: Solitary or raid (3–6) Challenge Rating: 20 Arcane Reach x2(Su): The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th level spell slot. Mastery of Elements: The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. For example, an Archmage could cast a fireball that deals sonic damage instead of fire damage. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th level spell slot. Mastery of Counterspelling: When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning (for example, if it is a spell that affects an area), then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th level spell slot. Spell-Like Ability (Touch of Idiocy(Empowered/Chained) & Vampiric Touch (Empowered/Chained): An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot. The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level. For example, an archmage can make lightning bolt into a spell-like ability by using a 3rd-level spell slot to do so, or into a maximized lightning bolt by using a 6th-level spell slot. The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spelllike ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day. For example, Hexark, a 15th-level wizard/2nd-level archmage, is a pyromaniac and never wants to be denied the ability to cast fireball, so she permanently uses a 9th-level spell slot to get fireball as a spell-like ability usable six times per day. She forfeits a 5th-level spell slot to master the ability. If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell. The Gimmick: Round 1: Free Action – Chained/Empowered Touch of Idiocy (1d6+50% penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom & Charisma NO SAVE). Spell 1, 2 & 3 Chained/Empowered Touch of Idiocy (can do these spells at 60’ range because of archmage) This should give all players a 4d6+50% penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma….reducing all of them to a minimum of 1. You best bet is a 20th level spellcaster having a 31 stat at most (18 to start, 5 points of increases and +6 item bonus) Average penalty is 18 Round 2: Free Action – Chained/Empowered Vampiric Touch (10d6+50% to any living creature. NO SAVE) Spell 1 Chained/Empowered Touch of Idiocy (1d6+50% penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom & Charisma NO SAVE). Spell 2 Chained/Empowered Bestow Curse (Will Save (if they are REALLY lucky) negates or –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.) At this point, pretty much everyone is a gibbering useless waste of living space. The Spell Weaver had about 300 hit points (Chained Vampiric Touch does about 45 average damage, 4-6 party members) and he can use any spell he wishes to make their day worse at this point. Adding 5 levels of Force Missile Mage and 5 levels of Archmage gives them 10d4 hit points, +4 BAB, +2/+2/+8 to saves, 60 more skill points, 3 more feats and 3 more stat points. (21st level caster)
runestar 07-15-07, 10:40 PM	The problem with chained vampiric touch is that I do not think the multiple sources of temp hp you receive stack. As a general rule of thumb, temp hp from the same source overlaps, only temp hp from different sources stack. Thus, in your case, even if chained vampiric touch could work and it managed to affect all your party members, the spell weaver would still only benefit from the highest temp hp drained from any 1 of all the PCs. You wouldn't add up all the damage and convert them to temp hp.
Anathema 07-15-07, 10:48 PM	This one would really be up to the DM, but I would say no. Chain Spell is a metamagic feat, which applies when you memorize the spell. When you memorize the spell, the spell is a 'touch' range attack, and the Archmage's Arcane Reach ability does not change the actual spell .. it only allows you to cast a touch range spell at 30 feet. I could see a DM allowing it, because even though it does not appear to be supported by the rules, I could see a legitimate line of reasoning supporting it.
Phrennzy 07-16-07, 12:40 PM	We're trying to determine whether the following build is legal. The question is whether an Archmage with Arcane Reach can Chain Spell the Touch of Idiocy/Vampiric Touch spell. Because while Chain Spell is restricted to non-touch spells, we think the Arcane Reach technically changes it to a ranged spell. I might be wrong though and therefore I'm looking for a 'professional' opinion. If Chain Spell cannot be applied to touch spells, then both of the spells are out because they are touch spells. I'd need to read the Chain Spell feat to fully understand.
Edana 07-16-07, 01:15 PM	The problem with chained vampiric touch is that I do not think the multiple sources of temp hp you receive stack. As a general rule of thumb, temp hp from the same source overlaps, only temp hp from different sources stack. Thus, in your case, even if chained vampiric touch could work and it managed to affect all your party members, the spell weaver would still only benefit from the highest temp hp drained from any 1 of all the PCs. You wouldn't add up all the damage and convert them to temp hp. In a similar vein, Touch of Idiocy applies a penalty, not damage, to the stats. Multiple castings on the same target overlap, they don't stack, and only the best (worst for the target) would apply. Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.
Anathema 07-16-07, 02:21 PM	I'd need to read the Chain Spell feat to fully understand. It's in the Complete Arcane, if you have it. The feat applies to "Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch...".
Phrennzy 07-17-07, 09:50 AM	It's in the Complete Arcane, if you have it. The feat applies to "Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch...". Don't have the book, but if that's what the feat says, then no, Arcane Reach doesn't change the range. It's semantics, but if Arcane Reach says: "The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away." then the spell still has a range of touch, and so Chain Spell won't work.