Spellcaster question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spellcaster question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jiriki13
08-01-07, 12:21 AM I have a player that is very stringent about creating his PCs with a specific theme. He loves bards in particular and thinks they are the best class in the game. Anyway, he has a bard5/lyric thaumaturge5/world singer1/sublime chord4. He just got a new spell at one of his higher levels and says he couldn't find a spell that fit his theme. This PC theme is a concentration on sonic spells and spells that inhibit the spellcast and/or effectiveness of opposing spellcasters. In other words he has spells that effectively makes opposing spellcasters have very difficult concentration checks to maintain or cast spells during combat. He also has a concentration on knowledge skills. Anyway, he couldn't find a particular spell that he liked and kept with his theme so he wanted to know if he could use his new spell slot (I think 5th or 6th level) to permanently have a metamagic enhanced spell that he already knows on hand. I'm not sure if I should do this because this would effectively negate the full round spellcasting of metamagic enhanced spells, unless I make him cast it as a full round action. I'm leaning towards making him just pick a normal spell of whatever level he needs to and be done with it, but I thought I would try to get some feedback first.

Thanks in advance,
Dave
Kouk
08-01-07, 01:12 AM There are many spells already in existence... and if none are available that suit him why not suggest he develop his own?

What are his current 5th level spells?

To my knowledge the only "normal" way to get a spell slot converted into something else is with feats or prestige classes.
Nom
08-01-07, 04:01 AM As a house rule, it's perfectly acceptable to allow a player to swap a spell known for a lower level spell with prepared metamagic (and no casting time penalty for that metamagic). If anything, the metamagic spell is weaker than what they could otherwise have put in there.
Marcus Majarra
08-01-07, 09:48 AM Have him pick up a spell of the appropriate level. The main drawback with spontaneous casters is that you have to carefully make your spell selection. Nothing's keeping the PC from using spell slots of that level to cast lower-level spells, but he shouldn't be receiving an advantage simply because he finds no spell to his liking.

In any case, perhaps we can be of help in advising spells to take that fit the theme. If he's learning a 6th-level spell and he doesn't have it already, greater dispel magic is a good choice to inhibit enemy spellcasters.
Nom
08-01-07, 09:39 PM but he shouldn't be receiving an advantage simply because he finds no spell to his liking.Maybe we have different uses of the word "advantage". In the general case, a metamagic spell is weaker than a non-metamagic spell with the same adjusted level. As such, I don't see how allowing a player to voluntarily permanently reduce the effectiveness of a limited resource (because it fits his character idea) counts as an "advantage".

Assuming he has the feat in question, I see no balance issue whatsoever. In fact, it's a not uncommon house rule even without the thematic limitations the player is putting on his PC.

Clarification to OP: Example: You mean something like choosing empowered fireball as a 6th level spell pick and casting it without the extra prep time?

The prep time penalty is simply because spontaneous casters can mix and match metamagic on the fly, thus increasing flexibility. If he's consistently applying the metamagic to a single spell, there's no flexibility and no need for the penalty. Though some doubt the need for the penalty anyway, especially given such features as metamagic rods.
Marcus Majarra
08-01-07, 10:44 PM I feel he's getting an advantage in that spontaneous casters have a maximum of spells known of any given level. This is one of the limitations of being a spontaneous caster. You cannot use a 4th-level spell known to learn a 3rd-level spell, for example. What you're suggesting does not only that, but also grants him the benefit of free metamagic.
StevenO
08-01-07, 11:02 PM I wouldn't have a problem with a spontaneous caster filling one of their few "spells known" slots with a metamagic version of a lower level spell. If you really want you could just rename it and put it in as a new spell. Although it may make a DMs job a little harder there is nothing saying a player can't select completely new spells when they get a new spell known provided the DM approves. It is really difficult to argue that taking a spell already on the character class list a permanently applying a metamagic feat to it is going to result in a broken spell; sure actually making it a higher level would increase the DC and penatrating power a little but often times a metamagic spell may already have a very similiar spell at the same level. What level does it take to cast Delayed Blast Fireball vs using Delay Spell with Fireball?

I say let your spontaneous caster learn his permanently metamagiced spell and let him use it normally.
Soluphobe
08-02-07, 11:34 AM What your PC wants is actually in Unearthed Arcana (under the magic section, I think). Metamagic and Sorcerers I (might be II, one of those).

I'd allow it - I mean, he's giving up a spell known so he has to spend a standard action instead of a full-round one. And for Spontaneous casters, that's a big hit.
Marcus Majarra
08-02-07, 12:48 PM Although it may make a DMs job a little harder there is nothing saying a player can't select completely new spells when they get a new spell known provided the DM approves.
Broadly speaking, a player can do whatever he wants provided the DM approves.

If we start arguing this all the time, we'll never do any real rules counseling.
Allarian
08-02-07, 05:40 PM I have a player that is very stringent about creating his PCs with a specific theme. He loves bards in particular and thinks they are the best class in the game. Anyway, he has a bard5/lyric thaumaturge5/world singer1/sublime chord4. He just got a new spell at one of his higher levels and says he couldn't find a spell that fit his theme. This PC theme is a concentration on sonic spells and spells that inhibit the spellcast and/or effectiveness of opposing spellcasters. In other words he has spells that effectively makes opposing spellcasters have very difficult concentration checks to maintain or cast spells during combat. He also has a concentration on knowledge skills. Anyway, he couldn't find a particular spell that he liked and kept with his theme so he wanted to know if he could use his new spell slot (I think 5th or 6th level) to permanently have a metamagic enhanced spell that he already knows on hand. I'm not sure if I should do this because this would effectively negate the full round spellcasting of metamagic enhanced spells, unless I make him cast it as a full round action. I'm leaning towards making him just pick a normal spell of whatever level he needs to and be done with it, but I thought I would try to get some feedback first.
Emphasis mine.

He isn't even learning a new spell. Frankly I see no real problem, if I were the DM I would warn him that he is underpowering his character by failing to broaden his spell selection.
eternalwelcome
08-04-07, 10:49 AM There are feats and substitution options that allow a character to do what the OP is asking, mostly focused on sorcerers but adaptation can not hurt. If you have a character that wants to stand firm in his theme that is applaudable and should not be hindered imo, just consider the ramifications it may have on the game, and the character carefully, and be aware that a house rule like that may trivialize other character options that would normally be used to accomplish something similar. Counseling? I would say that if there is no precedance in the rules, or if you can accomplish this another way you should not allow it. If nothing honestly exists and you feel that it will not harm the character or game, then let it fly...
DrMorganes
08-04-07, 03:34 PM Complete Scoundrel adds three new 5th Level spells to the Bard class spell list. One, Harmonic Void, fits this character's concept perfectly.

Spellcasters within the area of effect must make a Concentration Check to cast a spell with verbal components. Failure means the spell fizzles and is wasted. See CS, pp99-100 for the specifics of range, duration, and other limitations.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jiriki13 08-01-07, 12:21 AM	I have a player that is very stringent about creating his PCs with a specific theme. He loves bards in particular and thinks they are the best class in the game. Anyway, he has a bard5/lyric thaumaturge5/world singer1/sublime chord4. He just got a new spell at one of his higher levels and says he couldn't find a spell that fit his theme. This PC theme is a concentration on sonic spells and spells that inhibit the spellcast and/or effectiveness of opposing spellcasters. In other words he has spells that effectively makes opposing spellcasters have very difficult concentration checks to maintain or cast spells during combat. He also has a concentration on knowledge skills. Anyway, he couldn't find a particular spell that he liked and kept with his theme so he wanted to know if he could use his new spell slot (I think 5th or 6th level) to permanently have a metamagic enhanced spell that he already knows on hand. I'm not sure if I should do this because this would effectively negate the full round spellcasting of metamagic enhanced spells, unless I make him cast it as a full round action. I'm leaning towards making him just pick a normal spell of whatever level he needs to and be done with it, but I thought I would try to get some feedback first. Thanks in advance, Dave
Kouk 08-01-07, 01:12 AM	There are many spells already in existence... and if none are available that suit him why not suggest he develop his own? What are his current 5th level spells? To my knowledge the only "normal" way to get a spell slot converted into something else is with feats or prestige classes.
Nom 08-01-07, 04:01 AM	As a house rule, it's perfectly acceptable to allow a player to swap a spell known for a lower level spell with prepared metamagic (and no casting time penalty for that metamagic). If anything, the metamagic spell is weaker than what they could otherwise have put in there.
Marcus Majarra 08-01-07, 09:48 AM	Have him pick up a spell of the appropriate level. The main drawback with spontaneous casters is that you have to carefully make your spell selection. Nothing's keeping the PC from using spell slots of that level to cast lower-level spells, but he shouldn't be receiving an advantage simply because he finds no spell to his liking. In any case, perhaps we can be of help in advising spells to take that fit the theme. If he's learning a 6th-level spell and he doesn't have it already, greater dispel magic is a good choice to inhibit enemy spellcasters.
Nom 08-01-07, 09:39 PM	but he shouldn't be receiving an advantage simply because he finds no spell to his liking.Maybe we have different uses of the word "advantage". In the general case, a metamagic spell is weaker than a non-metamagic spell with the same adjusted level. As such, I don't see how allowing a player to voluntarily permanently reduce the effectiveness of a limited resource (because it fits his character idea) counts as an "advantage". Assuming he has the feat in question, I see no balance issue whatsoever. In fact, it's a not uncommon house rule even without the thematic limitations the player is putting on his PC. Clarification to OP: Example: You mean something like choosing empowered fireball as a 6th level spell pick and casting it without the extra prep time? The prep time penalty is simply because spontaneous casters can mix and match metamagic on the fly, thus increasing flexibility. If he's consistently applying the metamagic to a single spell, there's no flexibility and no need for the penalty. Though some doubt the need for the penalty anyway, especially given such features as metamagic rods.
Marcus Majarra 08-01-07, 10:44 PM	I feel he's getting an advantage in that spontaneous casters have a maximum of spells known of any given level. This is one of the limitations of being a spontaneous caster. You cannot use a 4th-level spell known to learn a 3rd-level spell, for example. What you're suggesting does not only that, but also grants him the benefit of free metamagic.
StevenO 08-01-07, 11:02 PM	I wouldn't have a problem with a spontaneous caster filling one of their few "spells known" slots with a metamagic version of a lower level spell. If you really want you could just rename it and put it in as a new spell. Although it may make a DMs job a little harder there is nothing saying a player can't select completely new spells when they get a new spell known provided the DM approves. It is really difficult to argue that taking a spell already on the character class list a permanently applying a metamagic feat to it is going to result in a broken spell; sure actually making it a higher level would increase the DC and penatrating power a little but often times a metamagic spell may already have a very similiar spell at the same level. What level does it take to cast Delayed Blast Fireball vs using Delay Spell with Fireball? I say let your spontaneous caster learn his permanently metamagiced spell and let him use it normally.
Soluphobe 08-02-07, 11:34 AM	What your PC wants is actually in Unearthed Arcana (under the magic section, I think). Metamagic and Sorcerers I (might be II, one of those). I'd allow it - I mean, he's giving up a spell known so he has to spend a standard action instead of a full-round one. And for Spontaneous casters, that's a big hit.
Marcus Majarra 08-02-07, 12:48 PM	Although it may make a DMs job a little harder there is nothing saying a player can't select completely new spells when they get a new spell known provided the DM approves. Broadly speaking, a player can do whatever he wants provided the DM approves. If we start arguing this all the time, we'll never do any real rules counseling.
Allarian 08-02-07, 05:40 PM	I have a player that is very stringent about creating his PCs with a specific theme. He loves bards in particular and thinks they are the best class in the game. Anyway, he has a bard5/lyric thaumaturge5/world singer1/sublime chord4. He just got a new spell at one of his higher levels and says he couldn't find a spell that fit his theme. This PC theme is a concentration on sonic spells and spells that inhibit the spellcast and/or effectiveness of opposing spellcasters. In other words he has spells that effectively makes opposing spellcasters have very difficult concentration checks to maintain or cast spells during combat. He also has a concentration on knowledge skills. Anyway, he couldn't find a particular spell that he liked and kept with his theme so he wanted to know if he could use his new spell slot (I think 5th or 6th level) to permanently have a metamagic enhanced spell that he already knows on hand. I'm not sure if I should do this because this would effectively negate the full round spellcasting of metamagic enhanced spells, unless I make him cast it as a full round action. I'm leaning towards making him just pick a normal spell of whatever level he needs to and be done with it, but I thought I would try to get some feedback first. Emphasis mine. He isn't even learning a new spell. Frankly I see no real problem, if I were the DM I would warn him that he is underpowering his character by failing to broaden his spell selection.
eternalwelcome 08-04-07, 10:49 AM	There are feats and substitution options that allow a character to do what the OP is asking, mostly focused on sorcerers but adaptation can not hurt. If you have a character that wants to stand firm in his theme that is applaudable and should not be hindered imo, just consider the ramifications it may have on the game, and the character carefully, and be aware that a house rule like that may trivialize other character options that would normally be used to accomplish something similar. Counseling? I would say that if there is no precedance in the rules, or if you can accomplish this another way you should not allow it. If nothing honestly exists and you feel that it will not harm the character or game, then let it fly...
DrMorganes 08-04-07, 03:34 PM	Complete Scoundrel adds three new 5th Level spells to the Bard class spell list. One, Harmonic Void, fits this character's concept perfectly. Spellcasters within the area of effect must make a Concentration Check to cast a spell with verbal components. Failure means the spell fizzles and is wasted. See CS, pp99-100 for the specifics of range, duration, and other limitations.