spells per 8hr rest vs per daily limit vs rest [Archive] - Wizards Community

spells per 8hr rest vs per daily limit vs rest [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
weasel0
11-17-07, 11:16 PM First off, I see the RAW and understand it. Please don't keep yelling it at me.

What I'd like to discuss is was this the intent of the rules. If rest only benefits hp once per day, regardless of whether it is an 8hr period or a 24hr period for double, why does resting multiple times a day allow arcane casters to refresh their "daily allotment" multiple times per day.

I don't mind bending a 24hr period a little for any caster to get their spells, but I find it odd, that a "daily allotment" that is prepared for the "upcoming day" lets arcane casters do 2x the amount of spells than clerics as resting for 8hrs then ignores all casting done prior to the 8hrs even if it hasn't been nearly 24hrs since the last prep.

Spell selection says that "Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used." This indicates to me that a per day is a 24 hr period, not a per 8hr rest period.

Now granted, it is stipulated that they must have 8hrs of rest before memorizing and that is all that is stipulated, but then why is it all "daily"?

So I suppose the question is, should arcanists gain benefit from multiple rest periods in the same day? Or does resting only provide benefits once per day?
PhaedrusXY
11-17-07, 11:35 PM First off, I see the RAW and understand it. Please don't keep yelling it at me.

What I'd like to discuss is was this the intent of the rules. If rest only benefits hp once per day, regardless of whether it is an 8hr period or a 24hr period for double, why does resting multiple times a day allow arcane casters to refresh their "daily allotment" multiple times per day.It doesn't. Casters get spells per day, not per 8 hour rest period.
So I suppose the question is, should arcanists gain benefit from multiple rest periods in the same day? Or does resting only provide benefits once per day?No, they shouldn't.
weasel0
11-18-07, 12:23 AM Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

This is the assinine bit that is causing the argument. Rest 8 hours and you can memorize anything you havn't cast in the last 8hrs is the arguement.
Sarella Starshine
11-18-07, 10:21 AM a wizard can prepare spells, like a cleric, only ONCE per day. A wizard is a bit more flexible than a cleric on when he can prepare those spells.

They are saying that if the wizard casted a spell in the 8 hrs leading up to his preperation, he cannot prepare those extended spell slots. The same restriction is on the cleric as well.

This is very important to keep track of if the wizard has interupted rest and decides to prepare spells imedately after. For example: Wizard A had two spells left memorized before he went to bed. 5 hrs into his manditory 8 hr rest he was woken up by his fellow party members when a scouting party of goblins entered the camp. He casted his two spells, killed the goblins and then went back to bed.

Now, Wizard A has to rest an additional hour beyond the 8 before he can prepare spells. If Wizard A decided to prepare right after, he would be unable to prepare spells in the slots that he used last night. If Wizard A decides that those two spell slots are needed, he can just delay his spell preperation til it has been at least 8 hrs since he casted those spells and is able to prepare all of his spells he can.
Marcus Majarra
11-18-07, 01:45 PM Here's a simple way of looking at it:

Each spell slot can be used once per day. In order for a wizard to prepare in any given spell slot, that spell slot must remain unused for 8 hours. In order to prepare spells, a wizard needs 8 hours of rest.
StevenO
11-18-07, 05:12 PM Although there can be some arguement about how valid a Wizard taking "extra" rest and regaining spells an addition time each day is I believe it shouldn't make much difference in most cases.

To rest up and study up twice would require 18 hours which doesn't leave much time for adventuring. Furthermore most spells wouldn't outlast the second sleep/study period making the first set of castings largely irrelavent. In those few cases where casting spell repeatedly during a day makes a difference I'd guess that many times the PCs already have a big block of time during which they aren't adventuring which makes to extra spell unimportant.

The only ways I see allowing your arcane caster to regain his spells a second time (after rest) as "broken" are when they spend the first period casting extended/persistant/long duration spells that last well into the second period or they are using magic for a time sensitive but long term project like aiding with the construction of fortifications against an upcoming attack.
Ace_of_time
11-18-07, 10:26 PM PREPARING WIZARD SPELLS
A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.
Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

SORCERERS AND BARDS
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not have spellbooks and do not prepare their spells. A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast (see these class descriptions). His high Charisma score might allow him to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + a spell’s level to cast the spell.
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.

Now it is true that sorc, bards, and wizards need 8 hours rest, not sleep, to get spells. But
PREPARING DIVINE SPELLS
Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for divine spells is Wisdom. To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Divine casters do not require rest for their spells.

As for HP it just says 8 hours sleep and double that for full 24 hours bed rest. HEALING
After taking damage, you can recover hit points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you can’t regain hit points past your full normal hit point total.
Natural Healing: With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points. Now some could take that to mean that "Full nights rest" to mean once per day. But it never says you are limited to 1 healing rest per day.
weasel0
11-19-07, 12:55 AM Thanks all for the extra support. I knew I was right from the beginning but it's nice to get a little support from others.

Now some could take that to mean that "Full nights rest" to mean once per day. But it never says you are limited to 1 healing rest per day.

This was the point of contention. Rest never says it only works once. I know it don't(or at least isn't the intent, IMO) work like that. You know it don't. But that wasn't stopping some of the people at the table I was gaming at from trying to argue that....

"Only spells cast during the last eight hours count against your daily limit, ergo, you can rest for eight hours and you can refill those spent spell slots because only the ones in the last eight hours count against your limit."
Ace_of_time
11-19-07, 07:19 PM To me and in my games, I don't limit how many times a day they rest. A party could go through their four encounters in four hours and need healing and rest. I let them since their is no limit on the number of times per day they can rest. But if they are resting to gain spell. I make sure they know that they will have to wait 24 hour. It is really one of those rules that leave it up to the DM.( the resting for HP not the spells rule)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
weasel0 11-17-07, 11:16 PM	First off, I see the RAW and understand it. Please don't keep yelling it at me. What I'd like to discuss is was this the intent of the rules. If rest only benefits hp once per day, regardless of whether it is an 8hr period or a 24hr period for double, why does resting multiple times a day allow arcane casters to refresh their "daily allotment" multiple times per day. I don't mind bending a 24hr period a little for any caster to get their spells, but I find it odd, that a "daily allotment" that is prepared for the "upcoming day" lets arcane casters do 2x the amount of spells than clerics as resting for 8hrs then ignores all casting done prior to the 8hrs even if it hasn't been nearly 24hrs since the last prep. Spell selection says that "Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used." This indicates to me that a per day is a 24 hr period, not a per 8hr rest period. Now granted, it is stipulated that they must have 8hrs of rest before memorizing and that is all that is stipulated, but then why is it all "daily"? So I suppose the question is, should arcanists gain benefit from multiple rest periods in the same day? Or does resting only provide benefits once per day?
PhaedrusXY 11-17-07, 11:35 PM	First off, I see the RAW and understand it. Please don't keep yelling it at me. What I'd like to discuss is was this the intent of the rules. If rest only benefits hp once per day, regardless of whether it is an 8hr period or a 24hr period for double, why does resting multiple times a day allow arcane casters to refresh their "daily allotment" multiple times per day.It doesn't. Casters get spells per day, not per 8 hour rest period. So I suppose the question is, should arcanists gain benefit from multiple rest periods in the same day? Or does resting only provide benefits once per day?No, they shouldn't.
weasel0 11-18-07, 12:23 AM	Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit. This is the assinine bit that is causing the argument. Rest 8 hours and you can memorize anything you havn't cast in the last 8hrs is the arguement.
Sarella Starshine 11-18-07, 10:21 AM	a wizard can prepare spells, like a cleric, only ONCE per day. A wizard is a bit more flexible than a cleric on when he can prepare those spells. They are saying that if the wizard casted a spell in the 8 hrs leading up to his preperation, he cannot prepare those extended spell slots. The same restriction is on the cleric as well. This is very important to keep track of if the wizard has interupted rest and decides to prepare spells imedately after. For example: Wizard A had two spells left memorized before he went to bed. 5 hrs into his manditory 8 hr rest he was woken up by his fellow party members when a scouting party of goblins entered the camp. He casted his two spells, killed the goblins and then went back to bed. Now, Wizard A has to rest an additional hour beyond the 8 before he can prepare spells. If Wizard A decided to prepare right after, he would be unable to prepare spells in the slots that he used last night. If Wizard A decides that those two spell slots are needed, he can just delay his spell preperation til it has been at least 8 hrs since he casted those spells and is able to prepare all of his spells he can.
Marcus Majarra 11-18-07, 01:45 PM	Here's a simple way of looking at it: Each spell slot can be used once per day. In order for a wizard to prepare in any given spell slot, that spell slot must remain unused for 8 hours. In order to prepare spells, a wizard needs 8 hours of rest.
StevenO 11-18-07, 05:12 PM	Although there can be some arguement about how valid a Wizard taking "extra" rest and regaining spells an addition time each day is I believe it shouldn't make much difference in most cases. To rest up and study up twice would require 18 hours which doesn't leave much time for adventuring. Furthermore most spells wouldn't outlast the second sleep/study period making the first set of castings largely irrelavent. In those few cases where casting spell repeatedly during a day makes a difference I'd guess that many times the PCs already have a big block of time during which they aren't adventuring which makes to extra spell unimportant. The only ways I see allowing your arcane caster to regain his spells a second time (after rest) as "broken" are when they spend the first period casting extended/persistant/long duration spells that last well into the second period or they are using magic for a time sensitive but long term project like aiding with the construction of fortifications against an upcoming attack.
Ace_of_time 11-18-07, 10:26 PM	PREPARING WIZARD SPELLS A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level. Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. SORCERERS AND BARDS Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not have spellbooks and do not prepare their spells. A sorcerer’s or bard’s class level limits the number of spells he can cast (see these class descriptions). His high Charisma score might allow him to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + a spell’s level to cast the spell. Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before. Now it is true that sorc, bards, and wizards need 8 hours rest, not sleep, to get spells. But PREPARING DIVINE SPELLS Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for divine spells is Wisdom. To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom. Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells. Divine casters do not require rest for their spells. As for HP it just says 8 hours sleep and double that for full 24 hours bed rest. HEALING After taking damage, you can recover hit points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you can’t regain hit points past your full normal hit point total. Natural Healing: With a full night’s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points. Now some could take that to mean that "Full nights rest" to mean once per day. But it never says you are limited to 1 healing rest per day.
weasel0 11-19-07, 12:55 AM	Thanks all for the extra support. I knew I was right from the beginning but it's nice to get a little support from others. Now some could take that to mean that "Full nights rest" to mean once per day. But it never says you are limited to 1 healing rest per day. This was the point of contention. Rest never says it only works once. I know it don't(or at least isn't the intent, IMO) work like that. You know it don't. But that wasn't stopping some of the people at the table I was gaming at from trying to argue that.... "Only spells cast during the last eight hours count against your daily limit, ergo, you can rest for eight hours and you can refill those spent spell slots because only the ones in the last eight hours count against your limit."
Ace_of_time 11-19-07, 07:19 PM	To me and in my games, I don't limit how many times a day they rest. A party could go through their four encounters in four hours and need healing and rest. I let them since their is no limit on the number of times per day they can rest. But if they are resting to gain spell. I make sure they know that they will have to wait 24 hour. It is really one of those rules that leave it up to the DM.( the resting for HP not the spells rule)