Spot and Listen Checks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spot and Listen Checks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rebel581
06-19-07, 12:11 AM One thing I haven't been able to figure out is what the Spot and Listen DCs are for how far away an encounter starts. What is the Spot DC to see a person not trying to hide? You get a -1 for each 10 ft., but you can't see an infinite amount, even if they're not trying to hide. And how does cover affect a hide check?

For example, today, I was starting a new session and they were all level 1. They were traveling through a swamp that I had prepared to have 2 Lizardfolk attack them. I had the Lizardfolk hide in the swampy water. Both did badly on their Hide checks, but the party rolled bad on their spot checks and only saw one of them with their fins and the spikes on their back out of the water. How did that swamp affect their Hide checks? Did it just allow them to hide? How would I have started the encounter and decide what was the distance they first saw the Lizardfolk?

And if I had a camp of Orcs along the path they were walking, what would I do for Spot checks? Would the Orcs get a -5 for being distracted (not paying attention) and since they aren't hiding, what would be the Spot check the PCs have to make to see the Orcs?
BroadStreetBully
06-19-07, 01:06 AM there are guidelines in the DMG for how far off you can spot a medium-sized creature in different terrains.

as for the rest of it, you are correct that spot/listen checks are at -1 for each 10 foot increment the "target" is away from the "listener". however, that's a penalty you have to apply as DM, because the players (obviously) don't always know what it is they're listening for until they hear it.

you do need either cover or concealment in order to hide in the first place, so it's easy to justify "hide checks wherever you want!" while deep in a swamp; there's lots of foliage and water to use for hiding.

other than that, alot of the stuff's kind of up to common sense. I'm sure many of the spot/listen/hide stuff is in the DMG somewhere, but there's no way i'm going to look for the "official" guidelines on it when i could do something more constructive like flush out a plot or create a nifty combat encounter.
Lilinthra
06-19-07, 10:23 AM The 3.0 DMG was a bit better about the Spot DCs for Encounters, but apart from using the Encounter distance in the 3.5 version I've had to ballpark the DCs.
JustinA
06-23-07, 02:07 AM How did that swamp affect their Hide checks? Did it just allow them to hide?

For the most part, it just allowed them to hide. If you don't have cover, you can't hide.

However, in swamp terrain you can only spot people up to a maximum of 2d8x10 feet away (DMG, pg. 89).

How would I have started the encounter and decide what was the distance they first saw the Lizardfolk?

One of the interesting things about the Spot rules is that the distance you spot something is actually built right into the check. Since there's a -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance, you just multiply the margin of success by 10 feet to determine the distance at which a character is spotted.

This is easy if you're making a Spot check opposed by a Hide check. For example, if a character rolled 20 on their Spot check against a Hide check of 15, they would spot the creature when it was 50 feet away. (20 - 15 = 5 x 10 ft = 50 ft)

Unfortunately, what's not well-defined is what the DC should be to detect someone who isn't trying to Hide.

In 3.0, the rule was that you made a DC 20 Spot check with a variety of modifiers (based on size, lighting, etc.) to detect them at the maximum detection range for the terrain. AFAICT, this rule was removed in 3.5.

What I'd do is make this a DC 0 check. Why? Because it makes it very easy to calculate encounter distances: Just multiply the check result by 10 feet to determine how far away something is when you spot it.

(A DC 0 check also makes sense: If someone is standing within 10 feet of you and not trying to hide themselves, it makes sense that you would have literally no difficulty spotting them (unless you were distracted).

A DC 0 check also results in numbers very similar to Listen DCs to fall out of the system: A Listen check to hear a battle is DC -10. Attacking someone results in a -20 penalty to a Hide check, and and the average result of an unskilled Hide check (10) minus 20 is DC -10.)

The DC 0 check should still be modified by the target's Size modifier to Hide checks.

And it wouldn't necessarily hurt to bring back the illumination modifiers to Spot checks that 3.5 dropped:

Moonlight = -5
Starlight = -10

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rebel581 06-19-07, 12:11 AM	One thing I haven't been able to figure out is what the Spot and Listen DCs are for how far away an encounter starts. What is the Spot DC to see a person not trying to hide? You get a -1 for each 10 ft., but you can't see an infinite amount, even if they're not trying to hide. And how does cover affect a hide check? For example, today, I was starting a new session and they were all level 1. They were traveling through a swamp that I had prepared to have 2 Lizardfolk attack them. I had the Lizardfolk hide in the swampy water. Both did badly on their Hide checks, but the party rolled bad on their spot checks and only saw one of them with their fins and the spikes on their back out of the water. How did that swamp affect their Hide checks? Did it just allow them to hide? How would I have started the encounter and decide what was the distance they first saw the Lizardfolk? And if I had a camp of Orcs along the path they were walking, what would I do for Spot checks? Would the Orcs get a -5 for being distracted (not paying attention) and since they aren't hiding, what would be the Spot check the PCs have to make to see the Orcs?
BroadStreetBully 06-19-07, 01:06 AM	there are guidelines in the DMG for how far off you can spot a medium-sized creature in different terrains. as for the rest of it, you are correct that spot/listen checks are at -1 for each 10 foot increment the "target" is away from the "listener". however, that's a penalty you have to apply as DM, because the players (obviously) don't always know what it is they're listening for until they hear it. you do need either cover or concealment in order to hide in the first place, so it's easy to justify "hide checks wherever you want!" while deep in a swamp; there's lots of foliage and water to use for hiding. other than that, alot of the stuff's kind of up to common sense. I'm sure many of the spot/listen/hide stuff is in the DMG somewhere, but there's no way i'm going to look for the "official" guidelines on it when i could do something more constructive like flush out a plot or create a nifty combat encounter.
Lilinthra 06-19-07, 10:23 AM	The 3.0 DMG was a bit better about the Spot DCs for Encounters, but apart from using the Encounter distance in the 3.5 version I've had to ballpark the DCs.
JustinA 06-23-07, 02:07 AM	How did that swamp affect their Hide checks? Did it just allow them to hide? For the most part, it just allowed them to hide. If you don't have cover, you can't hide. However, in swamp terrain you can only spot people up to a maximum of 2d8x10 feet away (DMG, pg. 89). How would I have started the encounter and decide what was the distance they first saw the Lizardfolk? One of the interesting things about the Spot rules is that the distance you spot something is actually built right into the check. Since there's a -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance, you just multiply the margin of success by 10 feet to determine the distance at which a character is spotted. This is easy if you're making a Spot check opposed by a Hide check. For example, if a character rolled 20 on their Spot check against a Hide check of 15, they would spot the creature when it was 50 feet away. (20 - 15 = 5 x 10 ft = 50 ft) Unfortunately, what's not well-defined is what the DC should be to detect someone who isn't trying to Hide. In 3.0, the rule was that you made a DC 20 Spot check with a variety of modifiers (based on size, lighting, etc.) to detect them at the maximum detection range for the terrain. AFAICT, this rule was removed in 3.5. What I'd do is make this a DC 0 check. Why? Because it makes it very easy to calculate encounter distances: Just multiply the check result by 10 feet to determine how far away something is when you spot it. (A DC 0 check also makes sense: If someone is standing within 10 feet of you and not trying to hide themselves, it makes sense that you would have literally no difficulty spotting them (unless you were distracted). A DC 0 check also results in numbers very similar to Listen DCs to fall out of the system: A Listen check to hear a battle is DC -10. Attacking someone results in a -20 penalty to a Hide check, and and the average result of an unskilled Hide check (10) minus 20 is DC -10.) The DC 0 check should still be modified by the target's Size modifier to Hide checks. And it wouldn't necessarily hurt to bring back the illumination modifiers to Spot checks that 3.5 dropped: Moonlight = -5 Starlight = -10 Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net