Squeezing Past An Ally That Is Already Squeezing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Squeezing Past An Ally That Is Already Squeezing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PenderGrass
12-02-07, 07:08 PM Character A moves into a space he must squeeze into. This completes character A's movement.

Character B is an ally to character A and wishes to move past the squeezing character A.

Since character A is squeezing (essentially taking up all the open space of that square), can character B move through character A's space as per normal moving through an allies space?

:dragon:
*****
kuonji
12-03-07, 01:28 AM The squeezing rules in the SRD mention that you can squeeze past an opponent, so I don't see any reason you can't squeeze past your friend.
PenderGrass
12-03-07, 01:33 AM The squeezing rules in the SRD mention that you can squeeze past an opponent, so I don't see any reason you can't squeeze past your friend.
True, but can you squeeze past an already squeezing friend?

As in, your medium-sized friend is in a space that is only 2.5 feet wide and you want to move through - can you? If so, is it a "double-squeeze" or what?

:dragon:
*****
Marcus Majarra
12-03-07, 08:24 AM I prefer to see squeezing not as actually trying to fit in a restriced space to the point of being pressed against the walls, but rather as adjusting yourself to a more narrow space. For example, moving through a 5-foot wide passage is simple enough that you don't need to adjust your position. Cut that passage in half, and you need to walk side-ways to get through. There's still some room between you and the wall, which would be sufficient for others to pass through, should you allow them to do so. I see no problem with squeezing past a squeezing ally.
PenderGrass
12-03-07, 02:09 PM I see no problem with squeezing past a squeezing ally.
At what point would it become a problem?

Especially, using very small spaces from the Underdark book, where would you draw the line?

:dragon:
*****
JackSnape
12-03-07, 02:16 PM Think about it based on race and weight, an average human can turn his/her body to take up probably 1.5 to 2 feet wide, A dwarf is likely wider 2-2.5 a halfling or gnome should easily only take up 1 foot.
I'll always allow allies to pass each other, otherwise the middle people end up never getting any action. For a very narrow space I might make the passer use 3 or 4 squares of movement as eh climbs/crawls past.
weasel0
12-03-07, 05:19 PM To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
...else you get stuck for a round.
Marcus Majarra
12-03-07, 07:09 PM At what point would it become a problem?

Especially, using very small spaces from the Underdark book, where would you draw the line?
Since characters cannot end their movement in other creatures' spaces, I don't think that it ever becomes a problem. I haven't seen the other rules from Underdark, however.
PenderGrass
12-03-07, 09:25 PM ...else you get stuck for a round.
I have seen that, but according to the RAW, when an ally moves through a friendly space - it is essentially like moving through an open space.

So, in other words, a squeezing friendly has an ally move past him - we all know that some part of that 2.5 feet is taken up by the squeezing friend - but according to the RAW its as if the space was totally open 2.5 feet. Not 2.5 feet that has a friend in it.

Let me give you an example of essentially what was happening (all medium-sized creatures in this example):

Character A moves up to and into a porthole-sized opening. Since it is a squeeze, the movement to move through it is more than he has for the rest of his turn. So, he is able to move "half in" and "half out" of the porthole.

Think, Winnie The Pooh stuck in the tree.

Character B moves up behind character A and has enough movement to move past character A.

Now, according to RAW, there is no reason why character B can't move past character A - but, since character A is taking up 95% of the available space (supposedly), how is character B moving by as if character A doesn't exist?

EDIT, PART I: I add here that character A was in full adventuring gear with backpack on and so forth. Character B is a massive 6'6" 240 pound man with breast plate armor and full adventuring gear as well.

EDIT, PART II: I have no problem house ruling the situation to make sense in my game world, but before I do that, I am just curious if there is any RAW that prohibits this type of "moving past Winnie The Pooh" maneuver - specifically.

:dragon:
*****
Mock26
12-03-07, 09:39 PM This is something that really needs to be taken in a case by case situation. Put a large muscular man in platemail and have him squeeze into a space that is 2.5 feet wide. Chances are that someone else of the same size wearing the same type of armor would not be able to squeeze past him. If they were both wearing nothing other than regular clothes than it could probably be done. In a narrower space, say 1' wide, there's a good chance that someone in plate wouldn't even be able to squeeze into a space that small.
Marcus Majarra
12-03-07, 09:52 PM So, in other words, a squeezing friendly has an ally move past him - we all know that some part of that 2.5 feet is taken up by the squeezing friend - but according to the RAW its as if the space was totally open 2.5 feet. Not 2.5 feet that has a friend in it.
This is inconsequential. Normally, you can move through an ally's square at no penalty. By this kind of logic, you'd also have to argue that in order to move through an ally's square, you need to squeeze through it, since your ally is occupying part of it.

In a narrower space, say 1' wide, there's a good chance that someone in plate wouldn't even be able to squeeze into a space that small.
Spaces too small to squeeze through typically incur Escape Artist checks, in most modules I've seen.
Nom
12-03-07, 10:45 PM The squeezing rules in the SRD mention that you can squeeze past an opponent, so I don't see any reason you can't squeeze past your friend.When you squeeze past an opponent, you do not occupy their space (see diagram in PH). Pender is asking a completely different question: can you move "normally" through a square occupied by a squeezing ally?

... and one I don't have a ready answer to. My gut feeling is 'no', but I'm not aware of any rule that would explicitly deal with the situation.
PenderGrass
12-04-07, 12:31 AM http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5805/poohstuckpy2.gif

According to RAW, Rabbit and Christopher can move through Pooh quick as can be.

And yes, that is Pooh (in the picture and in RAW).

Looks like it will have to be a house rule.

:dragon:
*****
Mock26
12-04-07, 01:45 AM http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5805/poohstuckpy2.gif

According to RAW, Rabbit and Christopher can move through Pooh quick as can be.

And yes, that is Pooh (in the picture and in RAW).

Looks like it will have to be a house rule.

:dragon:
*****

He he he he, he said "pooh"
Eightbitmage
12-04-07, 07:35 AM I don't think this is neccissarily the domain of squeezing rules but rather escape artist rules. Squeezing is a matter of fighting in a space too small to effectively fight in, not in a space where you have to physically squeeze. You can only squeeze into a space that is no smaller than half your space, meaning 2.5 feet for a medium or small creature. As Pooh is probably a small creature his squeeze space is 2.5 feet, that hole he is in is only about a foot wide. This isn't an instance of squeezing at all, but of using escape artist to go through a hole.

Nothing other than logical givens take from IRL tell us this, but we no more need to be told you cannot move through an ally in this case any more than you can move through a wall.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PenderGrass 12-02-07, 07:08 PM	Character A moves into a space he must squeeze into. This completes character A's movement. Character B is an ally to character A and wishes to move past the squeezing character A. Since character A is squeezing (essentially taking up all the open space of that square), can character B move through character A's space as per normal moving through an allies space? :dragon: *****
kuonji 12-03-07, 01:28 AM	The squeezing rules in the SRD mention that you can squeeze past an opponent, so I don't see any reason you can't squeeze past your friend.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 01:33 AM	The squeezing rules in the SRD mention that you can squeeze past an opponent, so I don't see any reason you can't squeeze past your friend. True, but can you squeeze past an already squeezing friend? As in, your medium-sized friend is in a space that is only 2.5 feet wide and you want to move through - can you? If so, is it a "double-squeeze" or what? :dragon: *****
Marcus Majarra 12-03-07, 08:24 AM	I prefer to see squeezing not as actually trying to fit in a restriced space to the point of being pressed against the walls, but rather as adjusting yourself to a more narrow space. For example, moving through a 5-foot wide passage is simple enough that you don't need to adjust your position. Cut that passage in half, and you need to walk side-ways to get through. There's still some room between you and the wall, which would be sufficient for others to pass through, should you allow them to do so. I see no problem with squeezing past a squeezing ally.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 02:09 PM	I see no problem with squeezing past a squeezing ally. At what point would it become a problem? Especially, using very small spaces from the Underdark book, where would you draw the line? :dragon: *****
JackSnape 12-03-07, 02:16 PM	Think about it based on race and weight, an average human can turn his/her body to take up probably 1.5 to 2 feet wide, A dwarf is likely wider 2-2.5 a halfling or gnome should easily only take up 1 foot. I'll always allow allies to pass each other, otherwise the middle people end up never getting any action. For a very narrow space I might make the passer use 3 or 4 squares of movement as eh climbs/crawls past.
weasel0 12-03-07, 05:19 PM	To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. ...else you get stuck for a round.
Marcus Majarra 12-03-07, 07:09 PM	At what point would it become a problem? Especially, using very small spaces from the Underdark book, where would you draw the line? Since characters cannot end their movement in other creatures' spaces, I don't think that it ever becomes a problem. I haven't seen the other rules from Underdark, however.
PenderGrass 12-03-07, 09:25 PM	...else you get stuck for a round. I have seen that, but according to the RAW, when an ally moves through a friendly space - it is essentially like moving through an open space. So, in other words, a squeezing friendly has an ally move past him - we all know that some part of that 2.5 feet is taken up by the squeezing friend - but according to the RAW its as if the space was totally open 2.5 feet. Not 2.5 feet that has a friend in it. Let me give you an example of essentially what was happening (all medium-sized creatures in this example): Character A moves up to and into a porthole-sized opening. Since it is a squeeze, the movement to move through it is more than he has for the rest of his turn. So, he is able to move "half in" and "half out" of the porthole. Think, Winnie The Pooh stuck in the tree. Character B moves up behind character A and has enough movement to move past character A. Now, according to RAW, there is no reason why character B can't move past character A - but, since character A is taking up 95% of the available space (supposedly), how is character B moving by as if character A doesn't exist? EDIT, PART I: I add here that character A was in full adventuring gear with backpack on and so forth. Character B is a massive 6'6" 240 pound man with breast plate armor and full adventuring gear as well. EDIT, PART II: I have no problem house ruling the situation to make sense in my game world, but before I do that, I am just curious if there is any RAW that prohibits this type of "moving past Winnie The Pooh" maneuver - specifically. :dragon: *****
Mock26 12-03-07, 09:39 PM	This is something that really needs to be taken in a case by case situation. Put a large muscular man in platemail and have him squeeze into a space that is 2.5 feet wide. Chances are that someone else of the same size wearing the same type of armor would not be able to squeeze past him. If they were both wearing nothing other than regular clothes than it could probably be done. In a narrower space, say 1' wide, there's a good chance that someone in plate wouldn't even be able to squeeze into a space that small.
Marcus Majarra 12-03-07, 09:52 PM	So, in other words, a squeezing friendly has an ally move past him - we all know that some part of that 2.5 feet is taken up by the squeezing friend - but according to the RAW its as if the space was totally open 2.5 feet. Not 2.5 feet that has a friend in it. This is inconsequential. Normally, you can move through an ally's square at no penalty. By this kind of logic, you'd also have to argue that in order to move through an ally's square, you need to squeeze through it, since your ally is occupying part of it. In a narrower space, say 1' wide, there's a good chance that someone in plate wouldn't even be able to squeeze into a space that small. Spaces too small to squeeze through typically incur Escape Artist checks, in most modules I've seen.
Nom 12-03-07, 10:45 PM	The squeezing rules in the SRD mention that you can squeeze past an opponent, so I don't see any reason you can't squeeze past your friend.When you squeeze past an opponent, you do not occupy their space (see diagram in PH). Pender is asking a completely different question: can you move "normally" through a square occupied by a squeezing ally? ... and one I don't have a ready answer to. My gut feeling is 'no', but I'm not aware of any rule that would explicitly deal with the situation.
PenderGrass 12-04-07, 12:31 AM	http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5805/poohstuckpy2.gif According to RAW, Rabbit and Christopher can move through Pooh quick as can be. And yes, that is Pooh (in the picture and in RAW). Looks like it will have to be a house rule. :dragon: *****
Mock26 12-04-07, 01:45 AM	http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5805/poohstuckpy2.gif According to RAW, Rabbit and Christopher can move through Pooh quick as can be. And yes, that is Pooh (in the picture and in RAW). Looks like it will have to be a house rule. :dragon: ***** He he he he, he said "pooh"
Eightbitmage 12-04-07, 07:35 AM	I don't think this is neccissarily the domain of squeezing rules but rather escape artist rules. Squeezing is a matter of fighting in a space too small to effectively fight in, not in a space where you have to physically squeeze. You can only squeeze into a space that is no smaller than half your space, meaning 2.5 feet for a medium or small creature. As Pooh is probably a small creature his squeeze space is 2.5 feet, that hole he is in is only about a foot wide. This isn't an instance of squeezing at all, but of using escape artist to go through a hole. Nothing other than logical givens take from IRL tell us this, but we no more need to be told you cannot move through an ally in this case any more than you can move through a wall.