Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keyar81 06-12-07, 09:30 AM	You've got a long hallway only 5 ft wide. A medium sized enemy is standing at one end, a PC at the other. Since either character doesn't really take up all 5 ft of space, then could he squeeze past the character, albeit provoking an AoO and taking -4 to ac and attack rolls and counting that square as double movment? If so then whats the purpose of bull rush and overrun? Seems like they would have few applications.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-12-07, 09:37 AM	No squeezing past enemies. Doesn't happen. You pointed out some of your options: 1) Bull Rush them backward 2) Overrun 3) Tumble through (difficult without abilities) 4) Translocational spell 5) Hold Person the enemy, then squeeze past :) An armed combatant is not someone you "slide past" easily.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 09:45 AM	No squeezing past enemies. Doesn't happen. That is not correct by RAW. Squeezing In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.
Keyar81 06-12-07, 09:46 AM	PHB page 148. Squeezing:You can squeeze through or into a space that is atleast half as wide as your normal space....Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take -4 penalty on attack rolls and -4 penalty to AC....A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but can't end its movement in an occupied square. But you said No squeezing past enemies. Doesn't happen. Sounds like i'm missing something here, or your just wrong. That being said, you would still provoke AoO's normally, For say leaving their first threatened square. I dont see then the point of bull rush or overrun at all except for a few finite applications, like maybe using bullrush to shove someone off a cliff =P, or using overrun to trample someone while on a mount.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 09:53 AM	You've got a long hallway only 5 ft wide. A medium sized enemy is standing at one end, a PC at the other. Since either character doesn't really take up all 5 ft of space, then could he squeeze past the character, albeit provoking an AoO and taking -4 to ac and attack rolls and counting that square as double movment? If so then whats the purpose of bull rush and overrun? Seems like they would have few applications. Each tactic has it's own situations that would be more beneficial. Bullrush is less for getting by people and more forcing oponents to move (perhaps off a cliff or through a doorway). Overrun has the benefit of knocking your opponent prone and you don't lose movement. Just squeezing by will save your standard action, but at the cost of an extra square of movement and the squeezing penalties. All of them will provoke an AOO for entering an enemy square.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-12-07, 09:55 AM	I'm wrong? Dang! You can get by that easily? You can move through an opponents square and just sacrifice the AoO and a -4 to AC. Let me get the wording on Overrun.... OVERRUN You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round. If you’re attempting to overrun an opponent, follow these steps. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. Step 2: Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3. Step 3: Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you knock the defender prone. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check (including the size modifiers noted above, but no other modifiers) to try to knock you prone. Step 4: Consequences. If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal. If you fail and are knocked prone in turn, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came and fall prone, ending your movement there. If you fail but are not knocked prone, you have to move 5 feet back the way you came, ending your movement there. If that square is occupied, you fall prone in that square. So Overrun is just another way to make a Spring Attacked Trip Attempt??? As in move-standard action-continue moving event??? Geez... moving past an armed opponent just got a hell of a lot easier. That doesn't seem so right...
Nom 06-12-07, 10:37 AM	Overrun (1) provokes an AoO, (2) allows the defender to avoid the attack and (3) has the standard trip issue of possibly being knocked prone in return. As for squeezing past an opponent, this applies when you are (say) Large and want to fit through a 10 ft. space of which 5 ft. is occupied. You can "squeeze" through the other 5 ft., though you suffer some nasty penalties when doing so. A Medium creature can't squeeze past another Medium creature in a 5 ft. corridor.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-12-07, 10:46 AM	Nom, buddy... day late and dollar short... the SRD specifically cites squeezing past an opponent. I don't get it either. Or are you saying that a large creature (2x2 squares) can squeeze (1x2 squares) to get through but that a medium creature (1x1 squares) is at it's smallest available size? Interesting take on it. But the quote from the SRD implies allowing to pass the opponent.
Lilinthra 06-12-07, 10:51 AM	Re-read Nom's post. Nom is saying you can squeeze past an opponent, not through their space. EDIT: To clarify with your edit, instead of a 5 ft wide corridor, think of a 10 ft wide corridor. ---------------------------- ------------------ ----------------- LL --\ LL --\ LL LL M --/ M --/ M LL ---------------------------- ------------------ -----------------
Kragg Bonemeal 06-12-07, 11:45 AM	Lilinthra, great graphic. That makes it much easier to formulate a response. I guess my "no squeezing in 5' space" should have stood. Because with only the one 5' square, you have no place to "squeeze" to without passing through the enemy square. So medium creature in 5' hallway requires Overrun to get past because there is no place to squeeze that isn't through the enemy.
pres_man 06-12-07, 11:50 AM	Right, otherwise you would be forcing the other person to squeeze as well.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 01:38 PM	Kragg Bonemeal and pres_man, Ya, that's how I used to play it as well, then I noticed in the squeezing section that: A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. Implying that you can in fact squeeze into an occupied square. Otherwise why would it mention you can't end your movement in one? I wonder if there is a FAQ on it.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-12-07, 02:26 PM	Implying that you can in fact squeeze into an occupied square. Otherwise why would it mention you can't end your movement in one? I wonder if there is a FAQ on it.Since this section discusses large creatures, I would tend to say that is what it applies to, because elsewhere the SRD is very specific: "You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless." I of course would let a medium creature squeeze past another in a 7-1/2 foot wide corridor.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 02:34 PM	Since this section discusses large creatures, I would tend to say that is what it applies to, because elsewhere the SRD is very specific: "You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless." Ya, that's what I thought initially as well. But then why make the clarification you can't end your movement in an occupied square, if you can't enter it to begin with? Also, you can share the square of another creature of 2-3 size differences without penalty.
perdera 06-12-07, 03:05 PM	Ya, that's what I thought initially as well. But then why make the clarification you can't end your movement in an occupied square, if you can't enter it to begin with? Also, you can share the square of another creature of 2-3 size differences without penalty. Building on what you've all just discussed, I think I would take that to mean that (stealing the above graphic): ---------- LL ML ---------- The Large creature couldn't stop their movement like that. They can temporarily squeeze and shuffle by you (with penalties), but they can't just stand there squeezed--it's occupying the Medium creatures space. Usually there needs to be a physical constraint for you to stand there squeezed, you can't just arbitrarily alter your shape--unless, apparently, you're moving. Moving left to right, and ending your movement, this can happen: ---------- LL \------------ LL LL ----------------------- This can't: -------------------- LL LL LL -------------------- But then again, I dunno. It's another nice vague D&D rule.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 03:28 PM	perdera, Interesting interpretation. My only concern with your explanation is that when a creature squeezes they are not actually "physically constrained". The space a creature takes up is the space they need to fight effectively (there are exceptions like gelatinous cubes). Therefore a creature can squeeze into half their squares and suffer combat penalties, but they arent actually physically smushed. Anything less than one half their squares requires the use of Escape artist. In addition, you can easily pass through the square of an ally with no penalties.
Keyar81 06-12-07, 03:53 PM	Yes the phb uses large creatures, probably because it would be hard to illustrate half a square. The squeezing rules state that you can squeeze into any space half your size, with the said penalties, and the line about squeezing past an opponent, helps confirm that. Also, if a large creature can squeeze past an opponent, why not let a medium creature squeeze past a medium creature. Don't let the miniatures and battlegrid fool you, your character doesn't in fact take up a 25 square foot area unless he is morbidly obese. Go ahead and measure out a 5ft by 5ft square in your living room and see just how big that is. The fact that doing running at an opponent and 'sliding' past him is dangerous to say the least, but that is represented by the AoO and -4 on attack rolls AND AC. Of course the Quote on PG 147 can makes this confusing and seem contradictory. Taking into account this quote you may be right. The rules may have intended to only allow medium creatures squeezing past medium creatures in a hallway say, 1 and 1/2 squares wide. PHB p147 Opponent: You can't move through a square occupeid by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless.... Slightly more complicated question, what if you are in a 10ft by 10ft room and the opponent, he stands in front of, but not in the doorway, I would certainly say you can move diagonally past him through the door, but does that count as squeezing? and If it does, why then couldn't you do the same in the previous example. http://aycu31.webshots.com/image/19830/2005512265380051186_rs.jpg
perdera 06-12-07, 04:12 PM	Slightly more complicated question, what if you are in a 10ft by 10ft room and the opponent, he stands in front of, but not in the doorway, I would certainly say you can move diagonally past him through the door, but does that count as squeezing? and If it does, why then couldn't you do the same in the previous example. E= enemy, U= your char. Kinda crappy drawing =\ [ ]|[U][ ]to--->>[ ]|[ ][ ] [ ] [E][ ]to --->>[U] [E][ ] Correct or not, I already rule you can't make that diagonal movement through a door as you're walking through (at least partial) cover. Likewise you can't make a diagonal movement through a corner of wall. Since, on the grid, doors are usually on the line between the squares, not in a square, there is no square for you to occupy to block the door if you allow diagonal movement through it, which makes no sense to me. Also, regardless of RAW at this point, I'm not going to allow unfettered movement through opponents. I don't like the tactical implications of that, and it also has the effect of negating the flexibility of some classes (for example, allowing Fighters to charge through enemies to the back lines lessens the mobile usefulness of a Monk to Tumble through to the back lines, which is frequently their thing). For what it's worth, this section of the SRD specifically disallows moving through opponents, which I think sort of supports my interpretation, though I still find the wording pretty confusing: Moving through a Square Friend You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover. Opponent You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.) Ending Your Movement You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Overrun During your movement you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent. I charge double movement to move through allies. I think Lilinthra got this one right. No moving through Opponents (that's what Overrun is for) but you can squeeze by them depending on size and circumstances.
Keyar81 06-12-07, 04:25 PM	And that was my original problem, the thing that confused me enough to post, the wording makes it sound as if you could, but that would almost negate the need for overrun or bullrush. I think i would have to rule that you couldn't squeeze past the opponent, unless the hallway were wider than 5 ft, like 7.5 ft/1.5 squares, then i'd be fine with it.
perdera 06-12-07, 04:42 PM	Also, SRD disallows the diagonal movement you proposed: Measuring Distance Diagonals When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on. You can’t move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent. You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits.
Keyar81 06-12-07, 04:49 PM	Also, SRD disallows the diagonal movement you proposed: Ya so if that corner of the wall, was say a pit, or another guard, the character could move diagonally like he did. I had remembered the part about not moving through an opponents square after someone posted it, but was wondering if there was any RAW about moving diagonally like i suggested. Makes me glad this particular forum, among all the others is here :dancin:
Nom 06-12-07, 06:16 PM	Keyar, note that if we replace the Medium creature in Lilinthra's diagram above with a Large creature then the other Large creature can't squeeze past at all; there is no unoccupied space for him to squeeze through. Squeezing applies when there is space, but not enough. And yes, 5 ft (1.5 m) is quite a bit of room if you're just standing there. But it becomes very small when you are swinging a large weapon. As an example, try to swing a tennis racquet in your kitchen; you probably don't have anything like enough room, and your kitchen is probably a lot bigger than 5 ft. square.
Some_call_me_Tim 06-12-07, 07:57 PM	Ya, that's what I thought initially as well. But then why make the clarification you can't end your movement in an occupied square, if you can't enter it to begin with?I think that is there to reiterate, you either have to move completely clear or you are still squeezed. Or it could be interpreted to mean you can squeeze past but can't stop while still squeezed. Also, you can share the square of another creature of 2-3 size differences without penalty.I believe that is three size categories (or more) different not just two.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 08:15 PM	I think that is there to reiterate, you either have to move completely clear or you are still squeezed. Or it could be interpreted to mean you can squeeze past but can't stop while still squeezed. Ya, wish it were clearer. I looked in the FAQ and didn't find anything under "squeeze" or "squeezing". Also I looked under the Rules of the Game articles on movement. They had some stuff on squeezing with tiny or smaller creatures, but nothing medium sized. I believe that is three size categories (or more) different not just two. It depends. I actually looked this up the other day. See DMG page 29 second column, Mixing It Up. The two size category difference really only applies to tiny or smaller creatures, while the three categories applies to any sizes.
pres_man 06-13-07, 09:39 AM	If you go into the square of an opponent, you are not squeeze past them, you are squeezing through them. You can squeeze past them if the hall is 7 1/2 feet wide.
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 10:54 AM	If you go into the square of an opponent, you are not squeeze past them, you are squeezing through them. Gotcha, ya that makes sense. I still don't see why they put that statement at the end about squeezing and occupying someones square. Follow up question. Are there rules for squeezing through an opponents square? Say I don't have tumble (trained only) and my intention is not to push them back (bullrush) or knock them down (overrun), but just force my way by.
Keyar81 06-13-07, 12:27 PM	Gotcha, ya that makes sense. I still don't see why they put that statement at the end about squeezing and occupying someones square. Follow up question. Are there rules for squeezing through an opponents square? Say I don't have tumble (trained only) and my intention is not to push them back (bullrush) or knock them down (overrun), but just force my way by. I think overrun and bullrush cover that, the opponent can always 'let' you by. I wouldn't see a situation where you needed to force your way by, that couldn't be covered by either action.
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 12:42 PM	I think overrun and bullrush cover that, the opponent can always 'let' you by. I wouldn't see a situation where you needed to force your way by, that couldn't be covered by either action. Think of the situation where someone is blocking a doorway. I don't want to somersault under them (tumble), or push them back 5 feet (bullrush), or knock them down (overrun). I just want to force an opening and squeeze by them.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-13-07, 12:57 PM	Think of the situation where someone is blocking a doorway. I don't want to somersault under them (tumble), or push them back 5 feet (bullrush), or knock them down (overrun). I just want to force an opening and squeeze by them. But if they actively oppose you getting through the door, instead of 'allowing you to pass', then you WILL need to either push them out of the way (Bullrush) or knock them over (Overrun). If you are just trying to 'slide' through without being touched/trampled/slammed, that's what a Tumble check is for. You get to pick your own poison... but if you don't want to drink it down, don't try that kind of crud against a dangerous, armed opponent.
pres_man 06-13-07, 02:45 PM	Grapple them and then break the grapple and exit on the other side of the square (this may take two rounds depending on your BAB). :)
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 03:11 PM	But if they actively oppose you getting through the door, instead of 'allowing you to pass', then you WILL need to either push them out of the way (Bullrush) or knock them over (Overrun). If you are just trying to 'slide' through without being touched/trampled/slammed, that's what a Tumble check is for. You get to pick your own poison... but if you don't want to drink it down, don't try that kind of crud against a dangerous, armed opponent. What if they aren't a dangerous armed opponent? By RAW I still can't squeeze by since you can't move through an occupied square, armed or not. Bullrush seems the closest, but I don't want to push them back 5ft out of their square, just 2.5 ft, so I can squeeze through. Hmmm... perhaps a houserule. How about if you fail the strength check on a Bullrush by less than 5 you have the option of squeezing past the defender if you have movement left to get completely by them. If you fail by 5 or more (or you choose not to squeeze by, or if you don't have enough movement), then you get knocked back 5 feet to the square you previously moved from.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-13-07, 04:40 PM	What if they aren't a dangerous armed opponent? By RAW I still can't squeeze by since you can't move through an occupied square, armed or not. Bullrush seems the closest, but I don't want to push them back 5ft out of their square, just 2.5 ft, so I can squeeze through. Hmmm... perhaps a houserule. How about if you fail the strength check on a Bullrush by less than 5 you have the option of squeezing past the defender if you have movement left to get completely by them. If you fail by 5 or more (or you choose not to squeeze by, or if you don't have enough movement), then you get knocked back 5 feet to the square you previously moved from. Sorry. They don't have to be armed. Just getting in your way I guess. I'm a 6'6", 330lb offensive lineman on a semi-pro team. If I don't want you to get through the door, even by just using my hands, you are going to have a heck of a time getting past me. You'll need to Bullrush, but I withstand rushes from other 330lb defensive linemen. That is what the d20 is for... maybe I don't get my block set right and you push me back (Bullrush). Or my footwork gets tangled and I go down (Overrun). Or you slide by me like a blitzing, little corner and I just can't get my hands on you at all (Tumble). See what I mean??? The current mechanics do a pretty good job of covering this. Houserules will just make it way too easy. If you don't like your d20 chances (you are that weak and that uncoordinated, with low Str and Dex) then, yes, you just can't seem to physically impose upon anyone.
perdera 06-13-07, 04:43 PM	What if they aren't a dangerous armed opponent? By RAW I still can't squeeze by since you can't move through an occupied square, armed or not. Bullrush seems the closest, but I don't want to push them back 5ft out of their square, just 2.5 ft, so I can squeeze through. Hmmm... perhaps a houserule. How about if you fail the strength check on a Bullrush by less than 5 you have the option of squeezing past the defender if you have movement left to get completely by them. If you fail by 5 or more (or you choose not to squeeze by, or if you don't have enough movement), then you get knocked back 5 feet to the square you previously moved from. Overrun still applies here. If they're that insignificant declare an Overrun against them and they will either choose to stand aside and let you through or get bowled over. Without a weapon they won't even get their AoO on you. I don't understand why you want to shoehorn Bullrush into allowing you to move through people when Overrun already provides that mechanism (or Tumble if that's your thing). Grappling your way through is also a great idea. This is exactly what Overrun is for, not sure why you're avoiding it.
Phrennzy 06-13-07, 05:17 PM	Think of the situation where someone is blocking a doorway. I don't want to somersault under them (tumble), or push them back 5 feet (bullrush), or knock them down (overrun). I just want to force an opening and squeeze by them. Don't think of Tumbling as somersaulting. Tumble simply represents that you are able to move through the opponents square without being subject to an AoO. How this is resolved is flavor and is up to you and the DM. For instance: You dodge to the left and when he leans to that side you suddenly lurch to the right and jump through the space available. Make your Tumble check.
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 05:37 PM	Sorry. They don't have to be armed. Just getting in your way I guess. I'm a 6'6", 330lb offensive lineman on a semi-pro team. I also played ball! Mostly o-line in highschool and d-line in college, only DIII though. If I don't want you to get through the door, even by just using my hands, you are going to have a heck of a time getting past me. You'll need to Bullrush, but I withstand rushes from other 330lb defensive linemen. That is what the d20 is for... maybe I don't get my block set right and you push me back (Bullrush). Or my footwork gets tangled and I go down (Overrun). Or you slide by me like a blitzing, little corner and I just can't get my hands on you at all (Tumble). Or we make contact, and I still get by (swim move, rip move, etc). I don't have to knock you back, knock you down, or avoid you all together. I can do something between those. See what I mean??? The current mechanics do a pretty good job of covering this. Yes, pretty good, but there is a corner case. Houserules will just make it way too easy. Not really. Only five less on the bullrush roll. Or alternatively, you could say if you beat the defenders bullrush by 5 or less, you only squeeze by. You need to beat by 5 or more to move them 5 feet. That actually makes it harder.
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 05:39 PM	Overrun still applies here. If they're that insignificant declare an Overrun against them and they will either choose to stand aside and let you through or get bowled over. Without a weapon they won't even get their AoO on you. I don't understand why you want to shoehorn Bullrush into allowing you to move through people when Overrun already provides that mechanism (or Tumble if that's your thing). Grappling your way through is also a great idea. This is exactly what Overrun is for, not sure why you're avoiding it. Simple, I don't want to knock them down! I just want to move them over a little to squeeze by. Overrun also has the nasty side effect of possibly knocking you down instead.
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 05:40 PM	Don't think of Tumbling as somersaulting. Tumble simply represents that you are able to move through the opponents square without being subject to an AoO. How this is resolved is flavor and is up to you and the DM. For instance: You dodge to the left and when he leans to that side you suddenly lurch to the right and jump through the space available. Make your Tumble check. That is fine and all (I was just giving a quick example), but what if I want to make contact and provoke the AOO to move them 2.5 feet and squeeze through. What do I do then? That isn't tumble.
calvinNhobbes 06-13-07, 05:43 PM	Kragg Bonemeal, perdera and Phrennzy, Thanks for the feedback, but I think I'll try my houserule out. Good gaming!
Keyar81 06-13-07, 09:28 PM	That's fine, the official Raw doesn't have a ruling on such an action, so if you really want it in the game houserule it and make it your own ;)
weasel0 06-13-07, 10:09 PM	We use a house rule on tumble(given that the low low DC check can be easily beat at low levels and nil chance of screw up at high, even with the enemies getting faster and stronger too). Mr. A goes to tumble and sets the DC with a tumble check. Mr. B rolls a Reflex save to react to the tumble. If Mr. B meets or beats the DC, he gets his AoO. If he fails, he didn't react to the zippy little Mr. A fast enough. Apply all the other tumble rules and modifiers as normal.
Phrennzy 06-14-07, 10:05 AM	That is fine and all (I was just giving a quick example), but what if I want to make contact and provoke the AOO to move them 2.5 feet and squeeze through. What do I do then? That isn't tumble. Make an unarmed strike. AoO. Tumble through square. Done.
calvinNhobbes 06-14-07, 11:10 AM	Make an unarmed strike. AoO. Tumble through square. Done. I'm not sure if that was a joke or not. :confused:
Phrennzy 06-14-07, 11:42 AM	I'm not sure if that was a joke or not. :confused: Nope. That gets you your AoO and you're able to move through the door.
calvinNhobbes 06-14-07, 02:27 PM	Nope. That gets you your AoO and you're able to move through the door. But I don't want to strike them jsut push them a little, and what if I don't have a rank in tumble (it is trained only)? I guess I didn't explain my intent clearly enough. I don't want to avoid them totally (tumble). Just push them a little and squeeze by them.
Phrennzy 06-14-07, 03:37 PM	But I don't want to strike them jsut push them a little, and what if I don't have a rank in tumble (it is trained only)? I guess I didn't explain my intent clearly enough. I don't want to avoid them totally (tumble). Just push them a little and squeeze by them. Why? Why this wierd combination of actions? "I want to just push past him and take an AoO but I don't want to hurt him or knock him down." When would such a situation EVER occur? If I were the DM and you told me this was your intent, I would rule it as an Overrun and let you not knock him prone if you were successful.
calvinNhobbes 06-14-07, 05:05 PM	Why? Why this wierd combination of actions? "I want to just push past him and take an AoO but I don't want to hurt him or knock him down." When would such a situation EVER occur? If I were the DM and you told me this was your intent, I would rule it as an Overrun and let you not knock him prone if you were successful. Simple, because it should be easier to do than knocking them down. If the opponent is too tough to push back 5ft or knock down, then I should be able to shove them enough to squeeze by without having to put ranks in tumble. In addition, I don't want to provoke an AOO, it is just a necessary evil when entering someone elses square. I'm just trying to find a compromise between the all or nothing results of some of the more situational combat tactics. You obviously think its unnecessary, that's cool no problem ;) .
Phrennzy 06-14-07, 05:23 PM	Simple, because it should be easier to do than knocking them down. If the opponent is too tough to push back 5ft or knock down, then I should be able to shove them enough to squeeze by without having to put ranks in tumble. In addition, I don't want to provoke an AOO, it is just a necessary evil when entering someone elses square. I'm just trying to find a compromise between the all or nothing results of some of the more situational combat tactics. You obviously think its unnecessary, that's cool no problem ;) . If the opponent is too tough to push back 5ft or knock down, what makes you think you'd be able to shove them enough to squeeze by?
calvinNhobbes 06-14-07, 06:59 PM	If the opponent is too tough to push back 5ft or knock down, what makes you think you'd be able to shove them enough to squeeze by? Reality.
Phrennzy 06-14-07, 11:07 PM	Reality. LOL. And what place does that have in simulating combat in D&D?
pres_man 06-15-07, 01:12 AM	Reality. And how do you know that when that happens they aren't really using the tumbling skill? Heck when a guy with the ball in football jukes defender, that might be a tumble check.
calvinNhobbes 06-15-07, 09:15 AM	LOL. And what place does that have in simulating combat in D&D? :rolleyes: Just because the system is abstract does not mean it is illogical. And how do you know that when that happens they aren't really using the tumbling skill? Because it is something one should be able to do without having to train in tumbling. In addition, I would think tumbling implies not trying to make contact with the opponent. It is a dexterity, not strength based manuveur. Heck when a guy with the ball in football jukes defender, that might be a tumble check. I would consider it more of a feint. A good juke will leave the person unable to react (flat-footed). Leaping over them or spinning around them I consider more akin to tumbling.
pres_man 06-15-07, 10:51 AM	Because it is something one should be able to do without having to train in tumbling. In addition, I would think tumbling implies not trying to make contact with the opponent. It is a dexterity, not strength based manuveur. Why would you think that touching someone instantly negates an action of being dex based? You have stated that you wish to nudge them enough to get by but not over power them. That seems like not a str based effort, because if it was str based you'd be trying to overpower them (see bullrush and overrun). So it would appear you are going for a dex based manuever, hence tumble very well could be exactly what you are thinking of.
Phrennzy 06-15-07, 12:04 PM	:rolleyes: Just because the system is abstract does not mean it is illogical. How exactly is it illogical that, in game terms, if you are not strong or skilled enough to push someone out of the square they are occupying that you would be strong or skilled enough to slip by them when they do not want to let you?
calvinNhobbes 06-15-07, 12:04 PM	Why would you think that touching someone instantly negates an action of being dex based? The point of tumble is to avoid them completely. Not run into them, push them back 2.5 feet, and slip by. You have stated that you wish to nudge them enough to get by but not over power them. Depends what you mean by over power. I would say that being able to push them back 2.5 feet to squeeze by is over powering them, just not to the extent of a full bullrush or overrun. that seems like not a str based effort, I think it is. I guess we will have to agree to disagree then. because if it was str based you'd be trying to overpower them (see bullrush and overrun). I am trying to over power them. Perhaps you missed my point. The point is to create a more extensive gradient of outcomes for bullrush/overrun that better model the possibilities of such a manuveur in reality. So it would appear you are going for a dex based manuever, hence tumble very well could be exactly what you are thinking of. Nope, tumble is not what I'm thinking.
calvinNhobbes 06-15-07, 12:23 PM	How exactly is it illogical that, in game terms, if you are not strong or skilled enough to push someone out of the square they are occupying that you would be strong or skilled enough to slip by them when they do not want to let you? You are misreading my statements. You said reality had no place in simulating combat in D&D. That is false. The entire combat system is an attempt to model reality. There are abstractions, but they are based on logical extrapolations of reality. But to address your current point. It is illogical in reality. How do I know? Personal experience. I spent 8 years knocking offensive guards back the 2-3 feet I needed to slip between him and the tackle using a swim or rip move. Since the game attempts to model reality (it does whether you agree or not), then I see nothing wrong with trying to incorporate this scenario into the possible outcomes of bullrush. Many other aspects of the game have a gradient of outcomes instead of just succeed or fail. Why not add that to bullrush?
Phrennzy 06-15-07, 01:07 PM	You are misreading my statements. You said reality had no place in simulating combat in D&D. That is false. The entire combat system is an attempt to model reality. There are abstractions, but they are based on logical extrapolations of reality. But to address your current point. It is illogical in reality. How do I know? Personal experience. I spent 8 years knocking offensive guards back the 2-3 feet I needed to slip between him and the tackle using a swim or rip move. Since the game attempts to model reality (it does whether you agree or not), then I see nothing wrong with trying to incorporate this scenario into the possible outcomes of bullrush. Many other aspects of the game have a gradient of outcomes instead of just succeed or fail. Why not add that to bullrush? Why not simply use the mechanics for Overrun and inform the DM you don't want to knock the opponent down should you win. Although for the life of me, I can't imagine why you would be so intent on just moving past without knocking him down - but I'm sure the DM would allow you to leave him standing. My only objection is adding more rules to a game already bogged down with its more than fair share.
pres_man 06-15-07, 01:18 PM	But to address your current point. It is illogical in reality. How do I know? Personal experience. I spent 8 years knocking offensive guards back the 2-3 feet I needed to slip between him and the tackle using a swim or rip move. That is covered by grapple checks.
calvinNhobbes 06-15-07, 02:01 PM	Why not simply use the mechanics for Overrun and inform the DM you don't want to knock the opponent down should you win. Although for the life of me, I can't imagine why you would be so intent on just moving past without knocking him down - but I'm sure the DM would allow you to leave him standing. Because reality tells us it should be easier to move past them without knocking them down than it is to knock them down. Hence my modification that if you fail the check by 4 or less, you can squeeze by them instead. There is precedence for this kind of "semi-successful" result in many skill checks. My only objection is adding more rules to a game already bogged down with its more than fair share. I can understand and respect that objection, I just don't think it requires much effort to do so in this case.
calvinNhobbes 06-15-07, 02:06 PM	That is covered by grapple checks. Kind of, but not really, since I don't want to grab and get entangled with the person, just push them back. Technically many of the special attacks listed could be accomplished with minor modifications of the grapple rules, especially bullrush, overrun, and trip. They all use a very similar base mechanic.
weasel0 06-15-07, 02:28 PM	Grapple. 1) Initiate-AoO 2) if not hit, move into square 3) release and move into any adjacent square. Real easy. ...Then again I've played two grappling monks so i pretty much have those rules memorized.
calvinNhobbes 06-15-07, 02:45 PM	Grapple. 1) Initiate-AoO 2) if not hit, move into square 3) release and move into any adjacent square. Real easy. ...Then again I've played two grappling monks so i pretty much have those rules memorized. I have also played a grappling monk. :) The trick here is doing it all in one turn. You don't move into their square until step 4 to maintain. Then you have to make a second grapple check (which you can only do if you have a BAB +6/+1 or greater) to escape. You could rule that you are using your first grapple check in step 3 to release instead of damage, but then you are not yet in the opponents square and therefore simple remain in the square you initiated the grapple in.
perdera 06-15-07, 03:43 PM	Yeah, with all due respect weasel0, I don't think you're understanding the grappling rules correctly, that or I grossly misunderstand your example. It's certainly viable, but I think would usually take more than one round (the exception is if you're already within five feet of your opponent and have multiple attacks). Certainly a useful thing to do if you're better at grappling than bowling people over and/or don't want to take that Overrun AoO (assuming you have Improved Grapple).
weasel0 06-15-07, 04:19 PM	(the exception is if you're already within five feet of your opponent and have multiple attacks...is exactly what I had in mind... of course you couldn't know that since I neglected to type it in. (And my monks have so far always had Imp. Grapple) Bad weasel0!! People arn't always psyonic!! :D