Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Inyotef 08-29-07, 09:28 PM	I'm wondering if the following clerical spells would stack all together in terms of their Strength bonuses: 1) Divine Power (PH; +6 enhancement bonus to strength) 2) Righteous Might (PH; +4 size modifier bonus to strength) 3) Greater Visage of the Deity (Complete Divine; +4 to strength due to transmutation to half-celestial--a racial bonus I would imagine). What do people think? Could all or some of these spells stack together at the same time?
Sildatorak 08-29-07, 10:14 PM	They all stack. Throw in divine favor for a luck bonus to attacks and damage, too.
Colmarr 08-29-07, 10:20 PM	Agreed.
heffroncm 08-29-07, 11:35 PM	And, such is the reason most DM's ban DMM Persistent.
StevenO 08-30-07, 12:21 AM	Even without Divine MetaMagic Persistent the combo is still possible although it isn't quite so efficient.
Kragg Bonemeal 08-31-07, 10:29 AM	At high levels, these combos are a must for Combat Clerics. 2-3 rounds of buffing and you assist the tanks, plus you are at the front line already when the main tank/damage-dealer goes down for healing. It may seem super-uber, and is at mid-levels (although it takes many of your highest spell slots to pull off) but at high levels where it is a must, you still don't have the feat combos that allow the fighter to hit for 50+ damage per swing... you'll still get in your hits and do 10-20 damage, but you aren't really competing straight up with the fighter for hack-n-slash.
CrippleMrOnion 09-01-07, 12:40 PM	Not that this is particularly on topic, but I wouldn't ban the Divine Metamagic (Persistent) feat, I'd simply make it applicable. The errata for Complete Divine (which is now 3 years old though most people haven't taken the time to read it) states that you have to have the feat to which you're applying the Divine Metamagic. I wouldn't allow someone to take Persisten spell until it was useful, at earliest at level 12, and then Divine Metamagic at level 15. By that level, it's not that overpowered, really.
heffroncm 09-01-07, 12:51 PM	Not that this is particularly on topic, but I wouldn't ban the Divine Metamagic (Persistent) feat, I'd simply make it applicable. The errata for Complete Divine (which is now 3 years old though most people haven't taken the time to read it) states that you have to have the feat to which you're applying the Divine Metamagic. I wouldn't allow someone to take Persisten spell until it was useful, at earliest at level 12, and then Divine Metamagic at level 15. By that level, it's not that overpowered, really. You're still housruling it. You're adding a prerequisite to Persistent Spell that a player be able to cast 7th level spells. There are a number of other ways to reduce the level adjustement of a metamagic feat. If the player were to invest in these to drop the SLA of Persistent Spell to +4, would you allow them to take it when they can cast 5th level spells? Also, why is Persistent Detect Magic counted as not useful? It would be at level 13, for 6th level spells, in that case. Or, if you use the other feats, level 9, for 4th level spells. Note that the higher level spells you get, the better the options for Persisting become. Divine Power is always gravy, as you effectively get the Abilities of a Fighter of the same level. The "Bite of the" line from Spell Compendium, Visage of the Deity, and such high level spells that normally could not possibly be persistent is where DMM: Persistent really shines.
StevenO 09-01-07, 10:41 PM	It is also possible to get the "cheap" persistent MM on up to a 5th level arcane spell by using the Ultimate Magus. This one doesn't even require an extra feat (beyond Persistent) although it does suck down a 6th level spell slot instead of a bunch of turn uses.
CrippleMrOnion 09-02-07, 06:45 PM	I don't deny that I'm houseruling it, but at least it's still an option as opposed to a flat-out ban. To answer your questions, I'd need to know which specific feats you're talking about to look at their pre-req's and so forth. Either way, I don't feel it's in any way unreasonable to add in a very logical prerequisite to a metamagic feat that can otherwise become quite unmanageable; in fact, I'd say it's far preferrable to flat-out banning it. Incidentally, while it doesn't bear on either side of the argument, Clerics get level 6 spells at level 11, and I was referring to Orisons when I used level 12 as the benchmark for Persistent Spell, as it's the first level after level 11 at which you'd be able to take a feat.
Khadmus 09-02-07, 08:52 PM	Digressing, Anima Mage can give a free metamagic feat usage (i.e. persistent) to an arcane caster for a loss of one CL. I had fun with Persistent Improved Invisibility at level 10.
heffroncm 09-02-07, 11:27 PM	I don't deny that I'm houseruling it, but at least it's still an option as opposed to a flat-out ban. To answer your questions, I'd need to know which specific feats you're talking about to look at their pre-req's and so forth. Either way, I don't feel it's in any way unreasonable to add in a very logical prerequisite to a metamagic feat that can otherwise become quite unmanageable; in fact, I'd say it's far preferrable to flat-out banning it. Incidentally, while it doesn't bear on either side of the argument, Clerics get level 6 spells at level 11, and I was referring to Orisons when I used level 12 as the benchmark for Persistent Spell, as it's the first level after level 11 at which you'd be able to take a feat. I've always been a big proponent of a group using whatever houserules it needs to have fun. I don't think really helps the problem, as getting DMM Peristent early is not nearly as important as having it in the 12 to 15 range, when options like Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and enough turns, feats, and gear to back these up become available. As to reducing the SLA of metamagic feats, I don't know the builds and feats needed. My interests never ran in that direction, as such builds are generally used to make Save or Dies a gurauntee or HP Damage spells worth casting.