Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MindFlayerZoidberg 11-26-07, 02:48 AM	The session I was DMing quit right before a battle with a Stone Golem. One player (cleric) was talking about casting Stone Shape, thinking he would debilitate the construct. Having the chance to look it up, I am not so sure, for many reasons. 1) It is not an attack 2) No save 3) MM says that Flesh to Stone, a high level spell, only takes away DR and immunity to magic for one round. Even though I haven't found anything to outright deny it, I was leaning towards not allowing it. However, I am a benevolent DM and was thinking I would allow it to have some effect. What do you guys think?
calronmoonflower 11-26-07, 03:08 AM	Stone Shape only works on objects, but if you want to Rule 0 it give the golem a deformity penalty.
Krusk 11-26-07, 12:37 PM	Give the golem a will save and allow the effect to work for 1 round/2levels or something similar. Thats how i would run it. At least he isnt stone shaping the floor into cages around things. Thats just annoying.
Phrennzy 11-26-07, 12:49 PM	Stone Shape works on stone or stone objects. Stone Golems are immune to any spell that allows Spell Resistance, which Stone Shape does not. So Stone Shape should work on the golem. But to what extent? Talk to the player before the game and get an idea of what he thinks he can do. Stone Shape only affects up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level. Not a 10' cube, but 10 cubic feet. Completely different. A Stone Golem is 9 feet tall. Assume 1' thick and 3' shoulders, you are looking at 20+ cubic feet. Work with the player: 1d6 damage per 2 levels, as a touch attack. or -4 on it's to hit rolls for being misshapen. or -4 on damage caused due to smaller fists. The point is to discuss it BEFORE the fight begins, so the player isn't caught off guard, and doesn't feel screwed.
MindFlayerZoidberg 11-26-07, 05:08 PM	Stone Shape works on stone or stone objects. Stone Golems are immune to any spell that allows Spell Resistance, which Stone Shape does not. So Stone Shape should work on the golem. But to what extent? Talk to the player before the game and get an idea of what he thinks he can do. Stone Shape only affects up to 10 cu. ft. + 1 cu. ft./level. Not a 10' cube, but 10 cubic feet. Completely different. A Stone Golem is 9 feet tall. Assume 1' thick and 3' shoulders, you are looking at 20+ cubic feet. Work with the player: 1d6 damage per 2 levels, as a touch attack. or -4 on it's to hit rolls for being misshapen. or -4 on damage caused due to smaller fists. The point is to discuss it BEFORE the fight begins, so the player isn't caught off guard, and doesn't feel screwed. Exactly what I was thinking. As 11th level, he could get about 21 cubic feet, right about where a Stone Golem would be. However, since it is not an attack, I was thinking about giving the Stone Golem an attack of oppurtunity. Reason being he is placing the material component (piece of clay) on the stone, so, it is something he has to handle carefully and place on the surface of a 9ft. tall construct.
Marcus Majarra 11-26-07, 07:18 PM	Stone Shape works on stone or stone objects. Stone Golems are immune to any spell that allows Spell Resistance, which Stone Shape does not. So Stone Shape should work on the golem. Except that the Stone Golem is neither stone nor a stone object. It is a creature to the same extent that an earth elemental is a creature, even though both are made of, in part, of stone. The spell doesn't work on creatures.
hitorijun 11-28-07, 03:07 PM	Magic Immunity (ex): A stone golum is immune to ALL spells, spell like abilities and supernatural effects, except as follows. "transmute rock to mud" slows it, "transmute mud to stone" heals it and "stone to flesh" makes it vulnerable to normal attacks.
Phrennzy 11-28-07, 09:18 PM	Magic Immunity (ex): A stone golum is immune to ALL spells, spell like abilities and supernatural effects, except as follows. "transmute rock to mud" slows it, "transmute mud to stone" heals it and "stone to flesh" makes it vulnerable to normal attacks. No. Immunity to Magic (Ex): A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. Stone shape does not allow spell resistance, so the golem is not immune. Except that the Stone Golem is neither stone nor a stone object. It is a creature to the same extent that an earth elemental is a creature, even though both are made of, in part, of stone. The spell doesn't work on creatures. This golem has a humanoid body made from stone. The stone golem is made wholly from stone. I will agree that the spell was not intended for use against creatures, but it's design (or the Stone Golem entry) is flawed. I would not simply say to the player "It won't work." because there is no solid reason. I'd rather reward an interesting tactic.
Marcus Majarra 11-29-07, 12:39 AM	The stone golem is made wholly from stone. But that doesn't make the golem a stone or a stone object. The golem is a creature, which makes it immune to the spell, unless otherwise stated. If the spell were meant to have some use against creatures made of stone, there would be some mention of this (as is the case with shatter against crystalline creatures). I would not simply say to the player "It won't work." because there is no solid reason. I'd rather reward an interesting tactic. This is your prerogative. Keep in mind, however, that you are straying from the RAW.
PenderGrass 11-29-07, 01:58 AM	I think I would have to side with Marcus Majarra here and - so that Phrennzy (and anyone else thinking of letting the spell work directly against the stone golem) could prove that the spell doesn't work - here is a solid reason: A stone golem is a creature. In fact, if you turn to page 98 of the v3.5 FAQ and look at the entry regarding casting spells like Mordenkainen's disjunction, it specifically states that a stone golem is a creature (i.e., "anything with a wisdom and charisma score is a creature"). Since stone shape cannot target creatures, only objects or stone, it cannot target the stone golem and therefore the stone golem is safe from any direct attack by the spell. Now, if you wish to reward interesting tactics, let the player create a stone shaped slide into a nearby chasm - dropping the stone golem into a far far away place. :dragon: *****
Phrennzy 12-03-07, 05:19 PM	My idea falls squarely under the fact that Transmute Rock to Mud works on the Golem, even though the spell doesn't work on a creature. In fact, Transmute Rock to Mud shouldn't work on the golem at all based on the fact that the spell itself says it only works on unworked stone. The golem is definately worked stone. While it may be straying from the RAW, it certainly follows the spirit of the RAW.
Marcus Majarra 12-03-07, 07:06 PM	My idea falls squarely under the fact that Transmute Rock to Mud works on the Golem, even though the spell doesn't work on a creature. That's because transmute rock to mud is listed as an explicit exception to the rule. If stone shape were meant to be of any use against a stone golem, it would be stated somewhere.
MindFlayerZoidberg 12-04-07, 12:41 AM	I do want to reward the interesting use of tactics. What do you guys think of this compromise: Since it is not an attack (he has to hold the material component, a lump of clay, in his hand and place it on the stone) the Stone Golem gets an AoO. Stone shape does not say it is a touch attack and logistically I can defend it because it is a lot easier to touch a creature than holding something and rubbing it onto an object, or a 9 foot 5,000 pound angry Stone Golem. Since he gets to affect about 20 cubic feet, he would slightly deform part of the stone golem, probably his torso, into the shape he made the clay into. However, are their rules on being misshapen or would it just be a house rule? If it is the latter I would give the Golem -2 on attacks and -2 on Dex.
Phrennzy 12-04-07, 10:40 AM	I do want to reward the interesting use of tactics. What do you guys think of this compromise: Since it is not an attack (he has to hold the material component, a lump of clay, in his hand and place it on the stone) the Stone Golem gets an AoO. Stone shape does not say it is a touch attack and logistically I can defend it because it is a lot easier to touch a creature than holding something and rubbing it onto an object, or a 9 foot 5,000 pound angry Stone Golem. Since he gets to affect about 20 cubic feet, he would slightly deform part of the stone golem, probably his torso, into the shape he made the clay into. However, are their rules on being misshapen or would it just be a house rule? If it is the latter I would give the Golem -2 on attacks and -2 on Dex. Well, it's all house rules from the get go, since by RAW the spell doesn't work on the golem. I wouldn't give an AoO, because I'd be treating the spell as a touch attack. Besides, the golem has reach, and will have most likely already gotten an AoO when the caster moves up. I do not believe there are rules on being misshapen. Your proposed penalties seem fine.
Bardek 12-20-07, 09:58 PM	This happened in my campain. My wife (sorceress) cast the spell, touched the golem, and made it stretch up so high, that it snapped in half. Sadly, I rolled randomly as to where the upper portion of the golem fell, and it ended fell on her and killed her. She was cool with it, though, since it was one of those dying for the good of the party deaths. Although I agree that it needs to be a house rule, I would encourage DMs to allow a certain level of effect to reward creativity.