stupid question about charging. [Archive] - Wizards Community

stupid question about charging. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK
05-02-07, 02:07 PM I read somewere that when charging the movement through threaten squares provokes AoO. One of my players objected to this, and i am inclined to agree with him, as it would screw over most melee characters. But I am curiouse as to the actual RAW ruling would be. The discription in the PHB indacates that the charge action "normally" does not provoke AoOs. I checked the FAQ and was unable t o find anything either way on it.

Sappose the above situation:

A character is charging a huge hydra (15ft reach). The hydra has acted in this combat, and is not flat-footed, nor has it used any AoO this round. The character in question is an orc barbarian (5ft reach), and is not tumbling, and does not have any ranks in the tumble skill.

Would the orc charaging through the first two threatened squares provoke an AoO from the hydra?

Is there any other situation in which charging would provoke an AoO?

Please source your answaers. Either with page numbers and books. Or by indacting what search term was used to find the rule in the SRD.
Murrdox
05-02-07, 02:15 PM CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Nothing about the "Charge" action allows you to avoid Attacks of Opportunity. The Charge action by itself does not provoke an AoO, but the movement preceding the attack itself might.

If you charge in such a way that your movement takes you through squares that are threatened by enemies, those enemies can take AoO on you just as per normal. These enemies can even use their AoO as Trip Attacks in an attempt to disrupt your movement and end your charge prematurely.

If you charge an enemy with Reach, and you yourself do not have a Reach weapon, then that enemy gets to make AoO against you just as usual if you need to move through its threatened squares in order to close to melee range and make your attack.

Thus, in your example, the Orc would indeed provoke an AoO from charging a Hydra. If the Hydra is able to take more than one AoO per turn, then the Orc would actually provoke two attacks of opportunity for moving through 2 threatened squares.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
05-02-07, 02:41 PM Isn't the movement part of the charge action?
Murrdox
05-02-07, 03:05 PM Technically yes.

However, it is still movement, and still provokes AoO. The "Charge Action" by itself doesn't provoke an AoO. This is why the table in the PHB does not say "Yes" on whether or not a charge provokes an attack of opportunity.

If Charging by itself provoked an attack of opportunity, that would mean that the target of your charge would get an attack of opportunity on you for charging. Similar to this is how the Disarm action provokes an attack of opportunity without the Improved Disarm feat.

So the Charge action by itself does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

However, that is not the same thing as saying that you do not provoke attacks of opportunity during the movement you take as part of a charge.

If your movement during a charge was immune from taking Attacks of Opportunity, it would be specified as such in the rules.

For melee attackers who wish to charge often, your best bet is either to use tactics and position yourself so that you don't take any AoO during your charge... or take the "Mobility" feat which grants you a +4 AC against attacks of opportunity.
mvincent
05-02-07, 03:31 PM Charge has the following footnote on the Standard Action table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions):
"Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
tos_shai_hulud
05-02-07, 04:04 PM Thus, in your example, the Orc would indeed provoke an AoO from charging a Hydra. If the Hydra is able to take more than one AoO per turn, then the Orc would actually provoke two attacks of opportunity for moving through 2 threatened squares.

A single action can only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent. Moving through two threatened squares is the same as moving through one because it is the same movement. On the other hand, a charge-grapple from an opponent who did not have improved grapple could provoke a second attack of opportunity.
Phrennzy
05-02-07, 04:10 PM Completely agree with Murrdox.
Nom
05-02-07, 09:48 PM A single action can only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent.More correctly, a character only provokes one movement-related AoO per round per opponent. Likewise, a character may only make one AoO per "opportunity", but opportunity and action are not synonymous, as your charge-grapple shows (one action, possibly two opportunities if opponent has natural reach).

I also note that PH pg 138 says "per round". This means, among other things, that using to move actions to move will only provoke a single AoO, as would provoking an AoO while moving and then getting bull rushed.
Karla
05-03-07, 05:46 AM I'd note that several maneuvers in Tome of Battle, e.g. Battle leader's charge and Warleader's Charge specifically state "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge". If such charge movement didn't provoke AoO normally then this benefit would be meaningless.

Similarly, Salamander charge specifically allows you to use tumble during a charge "to avoid attacks of opportunity". Again a meaningless benefit unless AoO usually occur.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-02-07, 02:07 PM	I read somewere that when charging the movement through threaten squares provokes AoO. One of my players objected to this, and i am inclined to agree with him, as it would screw over most melee characters. But I am curiouse as to the actual RAW ruling would be. The discription in the PHB indacates that the charge action "normally" does not provoke AoOs. I checked the FAQ and was unable t o find anything either way on it. Sappose the above situation: A character is charging a huge hydra (15ft reach). The hydra has acted in this combat, and is not flat-footed, nor has it used any AoO this round. The character in question is an orc barbarian (5ft reach), and is not tumbling, and does not have any ranks in the tumble skill. Would the orc charaging through the first two threatened squares provoke an AoO from the hydra? Is there any other situation in which charging would provoke an AoO? Please source your answaers. Either with page numbers and books. Or by indacting what search term was used to find the rule in the SRD.
Murrdox 05-02-07, 02:15 PM	CHARGE Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent. You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. Nothing about the "Charge" action allows you to avoid Attacks of Opportunity. The Charge action by itself does not provoke an AoO, but the movement preceding the attack itself might. If you charge in such a way that your movement takes you through squares that are threatened by enemies, those enemies can take AoO on you just as per normal. These enemies can even use their AoO as Trip Attacks in an attempt to disrupt your movement and end your charge prematurely. If you charge an enemy with Reach, and you yourself do not have a Reach weapon, then that enemy gets to make AoO against you just as usual if you need to move through its threatened squares in order to close to melee range and make your attack. Thus, in your example, the Orc would indeed provoke an AoO from charging a Hydra. If the Hydra is able to take more than one AoO per turn, then the Orc would actually provoke two attacks of opportunity for moving through 2 threatened squares.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 05-02-07, 02:41 PM	Isn't the movement part of the charge action?
Murrdox 05-02-07, 03:05 PM	Technically yes. However, it is still movement, and still provokes AoO. The "Charge Action" by itself doesn't provoke an AoO. This is why the table in the PHB does not say "Yes" on whether or not a charge provokes an attack of opportunity. If Charging by itself provoked an attack of opportunity, that would mean that the target of your charge would get an attack of opportunity on you for charging. Similar to this is how the Disarm action provokes an attack of opportunity without the Improved Disarm feat. So the Charge action by itself does not provoke an attack of opportunity. However, that is not the same thing as saying that you do not provoke attacks of opportunity during the movement you take as part of a charge. If your movement during a charge was immune from taking Attacks of Opportunity, it would be specified as such in the rules. For melee attackers who wish to charge often, your best bet is either to use tactics and position yourself so that you don't take any AoO during your charge... or take the "Mobility" feat which grants you a +4 AC against attacks of opportunity.
mvincent 05-02-07, 03:31 PM	Charge has the following footnote on the Standard Action table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions): "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."
tos_shai_hulud 05-02-07, 04:04 PM	Thus, in your example, the Orc would indeed provoke an AoO from charging a Hydra. If the Hydra is able to take more than one AoO per turn, then the Orc would actually provoke two attacks of opportunity for moving through 2 threatened squares. A single action can only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent. Moving through two threatened squares is the same as moving through one because it is the same movement. On the other hand, a charge-grapple from an opponent who did not have improved grapple could provoke a second attack of opportunity.
Phrennzy 05-02-07, 04:10 PM	Completely agree with Murrdox.
Nom 05-02-07, 09:48 PM	A single action can only provoke one attack of opportunity from an opponent.More correctly, a character only provokes one movement-related AoO per round per opponent. Likewise, a character may only make one AoO per "opportunity", but opportunity and action are not synonymous, as your charge-grapple shows (one action, possibly two opportunities if opponent has natural reach). I also note that PH pg 138 says "per round". This means, among other things, that using to move actions to move will only provoke a single AoO, as would provoking an AoO while moving and then getting bull rushed.
Karla 05-03-07, 05:46 AM	I'd note that several maneuvers in Tome of Battle, e.g. Battle leader's charge and Warleader's Charge specifically state "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge". If such charge movement didn't provoke AoO normally then this benefit would be meaningless. Similarly, Salamander charge specifically allows you to use tumble during a charge "to avoid attacks of opportunity". Again a meaningless benefit unless AoO usually occur.