summon off a scroll casting time [Archive] - Wizards Community

summon off a scroll casting time [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eightbitmage
01-07-08, 10:59 PM Normally summoning takes a round. But according to this:

Spell Completion

This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

You can cast it off a scroll with a standard action. Does the normal round casting time override this, or because it is a scroll it simply obeys spell completion rules?
Dalzig
01-07-08, 11:12 PM That is indeed how it works. All it takes to cast a scroll is a standard action, no matter what spell. It's basically a wand with one charge that provokes attacks of opportunity.
NoldorForce
01-08-08, 01:54 AM The Rules Compendium overrides this; it requires the normal one-round casting time.Activating a scroll takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell stored on the scroll and provokes attacks of opportunity as spellcasting does.The same sort of thing happens for wands and staves, by the way, as there is a similar rule for spell trigger items.

Though this does allow you to use a scroll of, say, Celerity as an immediate action.
kuonji
01-08-08, 01:57 AM That is indeed how it works. All it takes to cast a scroll is a standard action, no matter what spell. It's basically a wand with one charge that provokes attacks of opportunity.

By the FAQ this is incorrect.

From the FAQ:
How long does it take to activate a scroll with an identify
spell on it? How about a scroll with any of the summon
monster spells or a wand of summon monster?

Activating any magic item is a standard action, unless the
item duplicates a spell effect that has a longer casting time or
unless the item description specifies a different casting time.
The sections on spell completion and spell trigger items should
include the caveat that activating the item takes as long as
casting the stored spell would take. Thus, it takes 1 hour to
activate a scroll with an identify spell on it. A scroll or a wand
with any of the summon monster spells in it takes a full round
to activate, just as casting a summon monster spell does.

Summon specific section bolded.
Eightbitmage
01-08-08, 12:43 PM The sections on spell completion and spell trigger items should
include the caveat that activating the item takes as long as
casting the stored spell would take.

I guess the emphasis is on should... I figured they would update the section after putting it in the FAQ. Thanks to everyone who answered, time to shuffle up my scrolls.
NoldorForce
01-08-08, 02:18 PM Actually, the FAQ is not quite correct at this point; as above, the Rules Compendium (which came later and overrode it besides) defines a flat Normal Casting Time = Scroll Casting Time rule. No exception or ambiguity is given for stuff with a casting time less than a standard action.
hovnarr
01-09-08, 03:29 AM But potions and oils always take one std action to use still, right? An oil of summon monster III would still be OK?
kuonji
01-09-08, 06:09 AM Can you even make oil of summon monster? What do you apply it to, the ground?
Merestil Haye
01-09-08, 08:40 AM But potions and oils always take one std action to use still, right?Right. But...

An oil of summon monster III would still be OK?The spells you can make into a potion or oil are somewhat restricted. From the "Potions and Oils" header : Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.From this we see that the spell must have a target - in short, that the spell header must contain a Target: entry. Summon Monster spells don't have targets so cannot be placed in oils.
hovnarr
01-09-08, 10:10 AM Good to have that sorted out.
mvincent
01-09-08, 12:59 PM The Rules Compendium overrides thisNote that the core rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) themselves actually do say:
"the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."
Dalzig
01-09-08, 05:34 PM Note that the core rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) themselves actually do say:
"the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."Ah, another rule that is hard to spot in the rules. Granted it is under Using Items, but it looks an awful lot like introduction fluff [in the DMG].
NoldorForce
01-09-08, 11:23 PM To be sure, the pre-Rules Compendium description of scrolls simply stated that a standard action was required; this (or Spell Compendium or Magic Item Compendium) was the likely basis for the obsolete FAQ ruling.
mvincent
01-10-08, 11:55 AM Actually, the FAQ is not quite correct at this point; as above, the Rules Compendium (which came later and overrode it besides) defines a flat Normal Casting Time = Scroll Casting Time rule. No exception or ambiguity is given for stuff with a casting time less than a standard action.So according to the RC ruling, one can cast a quickened spell from a scroll, even though you cannot from a wand, and the rules say "Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed"

I don't think that sounds correct. I going to put that down as yet another issue with the RC. Bad book.
Merestil Haye
01-10-08, 12:27 PM So according to the RC ruling, one can cast a quickened spell from a scroll, even though you cannot from a wand, and the rules say "Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed"

I don't think that sounds correct. I going to put that down as yet another issue with the RC. Bad book.1. The core rules do not limit the casting time of a spell completion action to 1 standard action or less. This was added (incorrectly IMO) by the FAQ and echoed in the Spell Compendium.

2. The Rules Compendium has no text stating that spell trigger items take at least a standard action to cast. Page 85 : "Activating a spell trigger item takes the same time as casting the spell the item stores, but activating the item doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity." So no, the RC does not say one thing for scrolls and another for wands.

3. The RC is the definitive statement of every rule it covers. If it contradicts the core rulebook, the core rulebook is wrong.

Therefore wands of swift action spells now take a swift action to activate.
mvincent
01-10-08, 12:52 PM 3. The RC is the definitive statement of every rule it covers. If it contradicts the core rulebook, the core rulebook is wrong.Yup, that appears to be WotC's stance... however, based on this (and many other oddities I've seen in the RC), there seems to be an excellent chance that the writer simply didn't think to address the idea of quickened scrolls. Given what I've seen, expecting the writer to be perfect is foolhardy... but that is exactly what we are expected to do... causing major rules changes without any indication that this was researched or intentional.

I've always been a huge supporter of official rulings from the errata, the FAQ, the RotG, the Custserv database, etc., but this 'errata' is not free. It seems more like an effort to get players to buy a (poorly proofed) book that will become obsolete within months.

The book is either riddled with mistakes, or it is intentionally making huge changes to the system without telling anyone (or explaining why). Either way, I cannot get behind it.
NoldorForce
01-10-08, 10:31 PM Yup, that appears to be WotC's stance... however, based on this (and many other oddities I've seen in the RC), there seems to be an excellent chance that the writer simply didn't think to address the idea of quickened scrolls. Given what I've seen, expecting the writer to be perfect is foolhardy... but that is exactly what we are expected to do... causing major rules changes without any indication that this was researched or intentional.This may have been the intent to allow swift-action scrolls and the like, considering the extensive use of the swift action soon after the original rules were written. Additionally, many magic items from Magic Item Compendium have swift-action activation times; this was likely not an oversight.

All in all, the book is not making mistakes here; such changes are far more likely to be intentional than accidental, considering that it (by definition) entails a certain amount of copy-and-paste. And I don't believe that such changes are necessarily bad. What's the real problem with swift-action scrolls and wands? You could do silly stuff like a Wand of Wraithstrike...but that's a problem with Wraithstrike rather than the wand mechanics. It's not going to break things if they aren't already so.

Plus, WotC apparently had a few CO Board members as consultants; if the people who know best how to warp the game don't know what they're doing with the rules, then the rest of us don't either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eightbitmage 01-07-08, 10:59 PM	Normally summoning takes a round. But according to this: Spell Completion This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. You can cast it off a scroll with a standard action. Does the normal round casting time override this, or because it is a scroll it simply obeys spell completion rules?
Dalzig 01-07-08, 11:12 PM	That is indeed how it works. All it takes to cast a scroll is a standard action, no matter what spell. It's basically a wand with one charge that provokes attacks of opportunity.
NoldorForce 01-08-08, 01:54 AM	The Rules Compendium overrides this; it requires the normal one-round casting time.Activating a scroll takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell stored on the scroll and provokes attacks of opportunity as spellcasting does.The same sort of thing happens for wands and staves, by the way, as there is a similar rule for spell trigger items. Though this does allow you to use a scroll of, say, Celerity as an immediate action.
kuonji 01-08-08, 01:57 AM	That is indeed how it works. All it takes to cast a scroll is a standard action, no matter what spell. It's basically a wand with one charge that provokes attacks of opportunity. By the FAQ this is incorrect. From the FAQ: How long does it take to activate a scroll with an identify spell on it? How about a scroll with any of the summon monster spells or a wand of summon monster? Activating any magic item is a standard action, unless the item duplicates a spell effect that has a longer casting time or unless the item description specifies a different casting time. The sections on spell completion and spell trigger items should include the caveat that activating the item takes as long as casting the stored spell would take. Thus, it takes 1 hour to activate a scroll with an identify spell on it. A scroll or a wand with any of the summon monster spells in it takes a full round to activate, just as casting a summon monster spell does. Summon specific section bolded.
Eightbitmage 01-08-08, 12:43 PM	The sections on spell completion and spell trigger items should include the caveat that activating the item takes as long as casting the stored spell would take. I guess the emphasis is on should... I figured they would update the section after putting it in the FAQ. Thanks to everyone who answered, time to shuffle up my scrolls.
NoldorForce 01-08-08, 02:18 PM	Actually, the FAQ is not quite correct at this point; as above, the Rules Compendium (which came later and overrode it besides) defines a flat Normal Casting Time = Scroll Casting Time rule. No exception or ambiguity is given for stuff with a casting time less than a standard action.
hovnarr 01-09-08, 03:29 AM	But potions and oils always take one std action to use still, right? An oil of summon monster III would still be OK?
kuonji 01-09-08, 06:09 AM	Can you even make oil of summon monster? What do you apply it to, the ground?
Merestil Haye 01-09-08, 08:40 AM	But potions and oils always take one std action to use still, right?Right. But... An oil of summon monster III would still be OK?The spells you can make into a potion or oil are somewhat restricted. From the "Potions and Oils" header : Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect). The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.From this we see that the spell must have a target - in short, that the spell header must contain a Target: entry. Summon Monster spells don't have targets so cannot be placed in oils.
hovnarr 01-09-08, 10:10 AM	Good to have that sorted out.
mvincent 01-09-08, 12:59 PM	The Rules Compendium overrides thisNote that the core rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) themselves actually do say: "the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."
Dalzig 01-09-08, 05:34 PM	Note that the core rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) themselves actually do say: "the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."Ah, another rule that is hard to spot in the rules. Granted it is under Using Items, but it looks an awful lot like introduction fluff [in the DMG].
NoldorForce 01-09-08, 11:23 PM	To be sure, the pre-Rules Compendium description of scrolls simply stated that a standard action was required; this (or Spell Compendium or Magic Item Compendium) was the likely basis for the obsolete FAQ ruling.
mvincent 01-10-08, 11:55 AM	Actually, the FAQ is not quite correct at this point; as above, the Rules Compendium (which came later and overrode it besides) defines a flat Normal Casting Time = Scroll Casting Time rule. No exception or ambiguity is given for stuff with a casting time less than a standard action.So according to the RC ruling, one can cast a quickened spell from a scroll, even though you cannot from a wand, and the rules say "Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed" I don't think that sounds correct. I going to put that down as yet another issue with the RC. Bad book.
Merestil Haye 01-10-08, 12:27 PM	So according to the RC ruling, one can cast a quickened spell from a scroll, even though you cannot from a wand, and the rules say "Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed" I don't think that sounds correct. I going to put that down as yet another issue with the RC. Bad book.1. The core rules do not limit the casting time of a spell completion action to 1 standard action or less. This was added (incorrectly IMO) by the FAQ and echoed in the Spell Compendium. 2. The Rules Compendium has no text stating that spell trigger items take at least a standard action to cast. Page 85 : "Activating a spell trigger item takes the same time as casting the spell the item stores, but activating the item doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity." So no, the RC does not say one thing for scrolls and another for wands. 3. The RC is the definitive statement of every rule it covers. If it contradicts the core rulebook, the core rulebook is wrong. Therefore wands of swift action spells now take a swift action to activate.
mvincent 01-10-08, 12:52 PM	3. The RC is the definitive statement of every rule it covers. If it contradicts the core rulebook, the core rulebook is wrong.Yup, that appears to be WotC's stance... however, based on this (and many other oddities I've seen in the RC), there seems to be an excellent chance that the writer simply didn't think to address the idea of quickened scrolls. Given what I've seen, expecting the writer to be perfect is foolhardy... but that is exactly what we are expected to do... causing major rules changes without any indication that this was researched or intentional. I've always been a huge supporter of official rulings from the errata, the FAQ, the RotG, the Custserv database, etc., but this 'errata' is not free. It seems more like an effort to get players to buy a (poorly proofed) book that will become obsolete within months. The book is either riddled with mistakes, or it is intentionally making huge changes to the system without telling anyone (or explaining why). Either way, I cannot get behind it.
NoldorForce 01-10-08, 10:31 PM	Yup, that appears to be WotC's stance... however, based on this (and many other oddities I've seen in the RC), there seems to be an excellent chance that the writer simply didn't think to address the idea of quickened scrolls. Given what I've seen, expecting the writer to be perfect is foolhardy... but that is exactly what we are expected to do... causing major rules changes without any indication that this was researched or intentional.This may have been the intent to allow swift-action scrolls and the like, considering the extensive use of the swift action soon after the original rules were written. Additionally, many magic items from Magic Item Compendium have swift-action activation times; this was likely not an oversight. All in all, the book is not making mistakes here; such changes are far more likely to be intentional than accidental, considering that it (by definition) entails a certain amount of copy-and-paste. And I don't believe that such changes are necessarily bad. What's the real problem with swift-action scrolls and wands? You could do silly stuff like a Wand of Wraithstrike...but that's a problem with Wraithstrike rather than the wand mechanics. It's not going to break things if they aren't already so. Plus, WotC apparently had a few CO Board members as consultants; if the people who know best how to warp the game don't know what they're doing with the rules, then the rest of us don't either.